Electrical Short Question

Does it short with no engine on the track, with just engine and no cars, or empty?

John,

Thanks for your reply. It seems to short with 3 different engines (each separately, of course) and no cars on the track. Also when I throw the toggle switch to "on" with no train on the track, it will short as evidenced by the green light on the ZW dimming and it sounds like the toggle switch pops. Therefore, I tried connecting a different toggle switch, as I had bought extras years ago, and the second one shorts and pops again.

I should add that initially I had a MTH infrared sensor connected to a  Lionel 153 block signal to the track which also shorted when the track shorted. I disconnected the sensor but that did not help any. BTW: I see you live in WNY, I live south of Geneva, NY.

Stephen

Start checking the wiring for that track. Disconnect one set at a time at both ends and check continuity. If it's shorting with nothing on the track then it's not train related. I'm not familiar with GG track but I know that the insulators on tubular can wear through over the years and cause a short.

Also look for a wayward screw or anything metal laying in the rails. Possibly a screw fell out of an engine or car and is causing the short.

Bob

Gargraves track doesn't use any insulators, the ties are either plastic or wood.  I'm guessing the short is in a switch or wiring.

I agree with Bob you're going to have to isolate different track loops and switches one thing at a time and check continuity with a VOM meter, you'll probably find a direct short or a very low resistance from center rail to outer rail when you find the bad loop that's killing your voltage!

Alan

A quick way to check track for a "faint" short:  Remove all engines and cars from loop, raise track voltage to 18 volts, and cautiously run your fingers over the track and switch rails feeling for a warm/hot spot.

My guess is somewhere on the mainline there is a short between the third rail and the common (I know folks, duh), since the split rail is fine. likewise, if it were somehow the transformer (which I doubted from the start, if common and hot were shorted in the transformer, it wouldn't work at all) then should be a problem in the split track.

I would inspect the main loop track and look for something obvious, like a small nail or screw that is bridging the gap between the middle and one of the outer rails.

With power off, I also would check continuity between each of the outer rails and the inner rail, what should show you which of the outer rails is grounded to the middle rail. Knowing that you can inspect the rail that appears shorted and look for something conductive that is doing the deed.

I was going to say maybe the power wire from the block switch to the track was shorted, but if you disconnected the power wire to the main loop from the block switch and ran a wire directly from the transformer to the loop and it still happened, it isn't that.

I have one possibility, from your description it sounds like the switches are part of the mainline loop (ie the fiber pins are on the two legs to the 2 tracks). It is possible that one of the kline switches is shorted, I have had that happen with lionel tubular switches. To test that, if you can, disconnect the kline switches from the mainline track on either end, and see if you put power to the mainline if you still have a short. If you don't see a short, then use a continuity test between the outer rails and the center rail of each of the switches, one of them likely will show shorted.

Questions: Have you installed any accessory (ies) along the troublesome track, that use an insulated control section? I think you said that it's just a loop, and wired separately. But by any chance do the various track blocks share a common return wire? Are there lighted bumpers anywhere?

Some hints as you test for continuity between the middle rail and the two outside rails.  Take all cars and locos off all the track. Disconnect all the wires at the transformer.  Disconnect all accessories as described above.  Turn the power switches for the passing siding(s) OFF.

Connect the ohmmeter leads to the hot and ground wires going to the loop of track, with its power switch ON. (Unless the power switch has a built-in pilot lamp.)  If your suspicion is correct, then you should see some resistance other than "infinity" (open circuit) on the meter. If you see anything from slight to substantial continuity, then you are correct in your assumption that the track has a fault.

Now comes the fun part. Try looking at the entire loop VERY CAREFULLY. Even if the other family members make fun of you, use a magnifying glass. As the man said, look for loose nails, tacks, screws, bits of rolling stock, etc. Use a magnet to patrol the track.

Nothing yet? Now try smacking the track gently but firmly at various places, to try to get a change in the reading on the meter. "Percussive maintenance" is the phrase.

We are always intrigued by weird electrical problems. Please get back to us with any results and we'll keep helping.

@Stephen Mayer. I am in SE Genesee County I have contact info in my profile if you want to carry this further. If nothing obvious shows up, divide the loop in two and test. Then divide the problem half again, and so on, until you can isolate it. Keep us posted.

Thanks everyone for your suggestions. I followed them last night with still no success. Unfortunately a lot of the track is torn up to get at those K-Line switches but I am continuing to try to isolate the problem today. My wife said maybe this is a good time to change the track plan. lol but really not funny.

Stephen

After dividing the loop in half, then in half again and again, the culprit appears to be a Lionel uncoupling/unloading track that I installed in the loop. I really do not understand as the piece looks fine and was never really used for its intended purposes. I will now have to spend many hours soldering together cut wires and repairing lots of track. But at least I should be back in business.

We could have solved this sooner if you had mentioned that track section.

Glad you found the problem. Not surprised that the uncoupling track was the culprit, least based on my experience, been told it is the uncoupling electro magnet windings getting worn and shorting (can't validate that one). 

Now that you have isolated the short circuit to the uncoupling track, would you do a few more simple tests with a meter and let us know exactly where the S/C was? A failed uncoupling electromagnet is a possible source, as the bigkid said. Thanks in advance. It will help others who may experience the same issues.

@Stephen Mayer I'm also glad you found the source of the shorting issue.  As Arthur mentioned, it would be great to expand knowledge base here on the forum if you were to investigate the problem as to what part(s) of the Lionel Uncoupler/Unloader failed resulting in a short circuit condition.  Pictures of it would also be helpful and appreciated, please. 

Update coming shortly on uncoupling/unloading track, but I am still reassembly wiring and track after so much was disassembled.

@Arthur P. Bloom posted:

We could have solved this sooner if you had mentioned that track section.

@Arthur P. Bloom posted:

Now that you have isolated the short circuit to the uncoupling track, would you do a few more simple tests with a meter and let us know exactly where the S/C was? A failed uncoupling electromagnet is a possible source, as the bigkid said. Thanks in advance. It will help others who may experience the same issues.

Arthur , I have the Lionel and MTH versions of the uncoupler / coupler track.                                                   Do both of them have a history of issues or is one better than the other ?

I have a 6'× 30 in. test track oval that I had a heavy engine running on it that shorted out the tender board and I suspected the u/c track.   I unscrewed almost all of the track ( Lionel tubular ) after finding continuity between all three rails.     This time it was a curved section that lost insulation on the center rail.   

@John H posted:

@Stephen Mayer. I am in SE Genesee County I have contact info in my profile if you want to carry this further. If nothing obvious shows up, divide the loop in two and test. Then divide the problem half again, and so on, until you can isolate it. Keep us posted.

Greetings neighbor! Castile here.