Has 3 rail hurt or helped 2 rail

I disagree. IMHO, the growth of scale 3 rail products has not only helped 2 railers by increasing the number of products available to us but it has also helped to spread the word about 2 rail and has increased our ranks by bringing in new folks to 2 rail.

 

I don't understand why you think the proliferation of scale 3 rail is a negative. Would you care to elaborate on your opinion?

IMO the growth of interest in scale dimentioned prototype based models in the 3 rail O gauge has indeed lead to a wider selection of mid priced models available to 2 railers  than otherwise would be the case.

 

 On the downside most of the mass produced steam locomotives offered in 2 and 3 rail versions have been compromised  in appearance to allow the locomotives to negotiate tight curves (O72/36"r).  Witness the the air gap and flying tail beams on steam locomotives in the area of trailing trucks.   With diesels until recently we've been burdened with sub-par performance due to the 3 rail community's apparent preference for high gear ratios and twin motor drives. Thank you Scott Mann and Sunset 3rd Rail for breaking the paradigm and offered models that run as good as the look.

 

While we have a wider selection today than ever before (I factor in the resale market in that assertion), I think perhaps our models are not what they could have been if we had a more homogeneous customer base like the HO community.

 

I left HO years ago and have never looked back -  I'm one happy O scale 2 rail camper!

 

Ed Rappe

 

 

i think its a two edged sword. the availability of 3 rail "scale" models have increased the amount of product out there BUT at the expense of accuracy with a lot of oversized detail, and locomotives that are modified in a way to compensate for oversized driver flanges that ruin the appearance of the locomotive. as well as it has taken the model building aspect out of the hobby. many people will live with the explosion of mass produced items rather than building a kit or scratch building anything. to me that has changed the hobby in a BAD way.

i have fallen into this in some cases as rather than building my Walthers passenger cars i bought some GGD cars. not very detailed but done. but i have refused to buy the belly button buildings that are out there as i hate looking at my layout full of the same buildings you have on yours. also the part that the 3 rail "SCALERS" think the are scale with oversized flanges,track and small radius with massive overhang. call it scale but its not.

Throughout model railroading, there are rivet counters who spend agonizingly long hours getting details just right, and croak before they have an operating layout.  Others compromise in the race against time, and accept a little less, all the way down

to too many rails, and modified details.  It is all a function of degree, and how much

time you want to spend.   It is Ford vs. Chevrolet, and whatever YOU want to do, and

spend money and time on.

It's symbiotic. While compromises have been made to accommodate sharp curves, the 2-rail influence among the hi-rail/3RS operators has created a demand for higher levels of detail.  Compare early MTH Premier to current MTH Premier and it's obvious. This creates numbers sufficient to get a particular model into production. Sunset/3rd Rail figured that out years ago. Although you get a 4-8-4 Northern steam locomotive without a tail beam and maybe shaved cylinders, you get a 4-8-4 Northern for $1,200 because 150 were made instead of a more accurate 4-8-4 Northern for $3600 because only 50 were made.

 

While some mass-produced items have taken "too many liberties" many of those don't get the sales because part of this 2-rail/hi-rail relationship has yielded a new group of rivet-counting roster checkers like myself. The difference is we don't count the rivets as carefully.

I agree that it is a two-sided affect.

 

On the one hand, the mass produced scale cars and locos are cheaper than hand-built brass and quicker to get than kit-built.    However, they tend to be generic versions of whatever.   Scott Mann has done well with making his GGD diesels unique to individual roads.   The typical USRA boxcar for example was done one-way with a myriad of paint jobs.   It is a very nice car with great detail but not detail unique to the individual RRs.   This is especially true of the Steel Rebuilt versions.    In Brass, the cars are build with unique road variations.   But the kicker is, I can afford 4-5 of the plastic ones for each new brass one.    If I were a collector, I would go with the brass, but since I have built an operating model RR, I had to go with the plastic to populate the rolling stock.   

 

So we have gotten many more things that are made for 3-rail that can be converted to use on 2-rail and mfg even do that.   The extra wide trucks that were the norm on some, are going away.   And the variety and detail at more affordable prices is better.

 

I still won't buy 2 motor diesels for the most part, they just don't run right in my experience. 

 

I think overall, however, 2-rail benefits from the wider variety of products.

There is no right or wrong answer here. I feel it has hurt the hobby because we have lost a ton of detail, look at the precision or pacific limited releases of the 80s they are works of art with tremendous details. Compare a precision passenger car to a ggd today. Yes you do have to paint the precision but thats part of the fun, plus they are priced pretty close. This surge in 3 rail "scale" has made alot of us 2 railers lazy and fall into that good close enough idea. What happened to buying the box full of precision details to add to a less detailed model, there are still plenty of us who will modify and have plenty of talent, but the out of box close enough has sure taken our 2 rail down a notch in my opinion.

Also in response to the above about 5 plastic cars to 1. I will agree its a way to inexpensively add filler to the layout, but how many of us have way more rolling stock than we can run? So again my opinion i'd rather not have the stock pile under the layout and have less more detailed models, but again that just my opinion and i believe thats how the 3 rail "scale" has hurt our way of thinking.

colorado hirailer i disagree with your logic. the part of extra rail, oversized rail, couplers and flanges and the time thing. you can buy from atlas the same track for 2 rail as 3 rail same price for their locomotives and cars. so i don't really understand the time saving aspect of the 3 rail part. sure if you have a layout like Keystone Ed or the ones Erik L post they take more time but so does the ones that Laid off Sick, Norm C, Dave at mercer hobbies do as well.  and i know the part of reverse curves (a 29.00 component fixes that easily) and how many layouts have reverse curves? if you look at it that way a like for like obviously 2 rail take no more time or money.

sure you can argue the point of a Key locomotive a Big boy on the auction is at 3200 massively detailed excellent runner compared to a big boy by Lionel at 1900., but another comparison i bought last nite a 2 rail BRASS Overland B&O FT AB set both powered unit for $470. for the pair. ask yourself how much the 3 rail non brass are. if you look you can find many TRUE O Scale locomotives at reasonable prices. and if you want sound and excellent American made control TCS WOW is coming out with a DCC system latter this month rated at 5 amps (that system should be less than $150). 

I would add a note to the builders vs buyers/runners commentary.  A similar move toward "ready to run" is occurring in the HO world.  The downturn in scratch and kit building has little to do with the 3 rail O scale market, but reflects larger societal trends with regard to disposable income and free time.  Pick up a 1950’s Model Railroader issue and check out the many detail sparse kit built cars and locomotives running on freelanced layouts.  In earlier times O scalers had to be model builders if they wanted a 2 rail roster. Today with the availability of off the shelf rolling stock more O scalers have the option of building prototype influenced model railroads with vastly improved scenery.  More and more I've come to realize that time is the one resource that can't be replaced - I should spend less time on this forum and more time on the railroad..

 

Ed Rappe

Your last sentence is the truth for many. I believe the bulk of 2 railers were still modifying well past the 50's. Im fact i believe the 80s produced some of the finest models. The ease of acquiring close enough models has limited it in my opinion. But thats the beauty we can all have our views whether we agree with each other or not.


 
       

It really doesn't matter. 

 

Jeff C

Your right it dont, was only asking opinion. It would be nice to hear yours


       

Never stopped in my shop.

Talent & skill is acquired.

 

Time is a valuable resource - in fact, it's our most precious one - you only get so much, and don't get any more.

 

Having more fun is an important consideration.  Balance it out, stop wasting your time here - precious little model RR'ing here anyway anymore and more yakking than anything else - get in your shop and/or layout room and do something.  Get excited and build something! 

Agreed, sitting on my work table is a pair of kleinschmidt redrived hudsons that i picked up in chicago in march. Redetailing with precision parts and a few that i'm turning on my lathe and milling machine. Quality is more important than qty in my opinion.



       

I think that the growth in buildings available for O gauge has helped.  I question if Woodland Scenics would have released O gauge buildings if it weren't for 3-rail scale.  I do see your points on the engines and cars and can see good arguments both ways.

 

Art

"Do you feel that the growth of 3 rail "scale" (i'll use that term loosely) has helped our hobby by adding products we wouldnt have "

 

    It's definitely helped the hobby. O scale has always been a limited segment of the hobby due to costs and the space requirements of O scale equipment. Three rail has brought many more into the O gauge world with it's ability to run on tighter curves and lots of mass produced(lower priced) equipment. More folks buying means more and more stuff is produced and lots of it can be re-trucked and turned into scale equipment. There's no way we'd have the present selection if 3 rail had not become so popular.   S scale has a similar dynamic on a smaller scale( size wise and numbers wise) with S modelers benefiting   from Flyer buyers.  HO doesn't have this "problem" because it can run on curves that will fit in most folks spaces in scale form so no need for HO high rail or toy train segment.......DaveB

Came to the hobby 14 yrs, ago knowing nothing.   Now I know that I still know nothing, things are better.   2 Rail always looks really nice, until I figured space for those huge curves, but then there were/are those really nice switching layout.  I've got a pretty nice layout in a couple of smaller rooms, that would be very common in residential housing today.  Even that larger (50' X 30') open basement would be hard to find in standard housing today.  That being rambled-on. Three rail works, I really admire some of the fine 2 rail modeling I've seen. 

Best wishes to all 2 rail modelers. 

Mike CT.  

    Let me clarify, What I was trying to say is the large 3 rail crowd lowers the cost of the models for everyone. The manufacturers can sell at lower price if more of the product is made so 2 railers benefit from 3 rail numbers. If we were only offered 2 rail products they would cost more due to more limited numbers of customers. Stand alone O scale has always been quite expensive, Weaver was one of the first I recall that started  selling 2/3 rail models at lower price points......DaveB

I think its 3RS and 2R have both benefited from each other. Just look at some of the recent posts from Eric C. and what he has done with rolling stock that has been offered in both 3R and 2R.

The 3RS growth has improved all product offerings. Since I have a layout, rule #1 is that the loco, steam or diesel, has to run and not be a shelf piece. MTH, Lionel, 3RD Rail, and others routinely release models that "do not have to be rebuilt on a work bench" so that they will operate. One big advantage of the larger production runs is that quality goes way up for everyone, and that is why I believe 3RS and 2 Rail both benefit.

Without the three rail market 2 rail O scale would be just like the S scale market.

Just my opinion but without 3-rail 'scale' models, which I've been told make up a large percentage of an importers production run overseas, there would be far fewer 2-rail models available in the marketplace today. Importers such as 3rdRail, MTH, and others would be hard pressed to import any 2-rail products without 3-rail included in their business plans.

 

Without question the 3-rail scale community makes it possible for many of us 2-railers to purchase and enjoy items which would not be available otherwise. Oh, and without 3-rail scale the cost of 2-rail models would absolutely skyrocket in cost - i.e. Overland Models, Glacer Park Models, and Key Imports to name a few examples.

The unfortunate aspect of O-gauge model railroading is that it is so factionalized with 3-rail vs 2-rail, "traditional" vs scale, high-rail vs low-rail or whatever. HO is pretty much uniformly scale with widely accepted standards for track, wheels, couplers and it holds the lion's share of the model railroading market. It seems the O-gauge variants will always be saddled with lack of conformity due to the toy-train heritage.

 

I have HO for scale fidelity in a manageable space, and the more widespread variety of items available at competitive prices (or at least it used to be so). I enjoy 3-rail O-gauge for its toy-train heritage and because I like to rescue old junk trains that otherwise might not ever run again.

 

All in all, we have a pretty astounding variety of model railroad products of all kinds available - for a price.

I am with NYCcollector above.  A giant boost, all because 3-rail scale is actually demanding more realism above the underframe than are 2-railers.  K-Line caused a revolution in O Scale passenger cars.  They said they were going to do so, and they did. 

It is not realistic to compare models that cost several thousand dollars and up with the offerings of Lionel and MTH.

 

I saw a Kohs Big Boy at O Scale West.  At $10,000 plus its detail was magnificent.  I would venture that it won't run as well as the Lionel VL Big Boy nor does it have the sound or smoke features.  The Lionel comes factory painted, the Kohs does not.  

 

Yes, there are better detailed models than those offered by Lionel, MTH, 3rd Rail and Atlas.  They are out of the reach of most average modelers.   

 

Joe

 

 

Your right it's not fair to compare them to 10,000 dollar models because if that's the demographic that is 2 rail scale O you guys are in trouble. If only people who can afford models that are 10 grand can do 2 rail your demographic is gonna die. If I spent that much on a loco I would have to live in it and drive it to work every day. That's an insane price for a loco and I know plenty of people who can afford that price but would never pay it because to them it's just not worth it. A scale MTH big boy sells for $1600 now there's a thousand times more people who can afford that over a Kohs big boy. The simple fact of the matter is that if all the 2 railers were forced to buy the super high end brass models there just wouldn't be that many except for super rich train guys.

I agree.  There is something for everybody.  I am happy that $10,000 models are available to the discriminating modeler who is in the top 1%.  It advances our hobby.  I am delighted that MTH can produce the finest old time passenger coaches ever available in O Scale, La Belle notwithstanding.

 

The question was whether the 3-rail scale hobby has benefitted 2-railers.  Anyone who thinks it has not is free to think that.  That is what makes no difference.

You're right Bob

       
       


What's that emoticon? Clapping hands!

Absolutely

A good example of how the 3 rail scale and 2 rail scale groups help one another is with combined reservations that make GGD's and AtlasO passenger car production possible at moderate price points.  

 

I disagree with Bob2's assertion that 3 railers demand more prototype fidelity above the underframe than 2 railers. That might be true out in California but in our neck of the woods the 2 railers generally adhere to standards that would qualify them in 3 rail circles as rivet counters.

 

Ed Rappe

I mentioned the symbiotic relationship between 2-rail and 3-rail above, but here's how the 3-rail side of the house has benefited from 2-rail (opinion):

• We've learned the beauty of using Kadee couplers.
• We've learned that "Just because we can, doesn't mean we should" with respect to reverse curves, curves that are too sharp, and unrealistic speeds.
• More detail is a good thing. Heck, even the "entry level" products from MTH and Atlas have upped the quality of detail.
• The value of the "buddy system" where 2-railers can get trucks/couplers in exchange for their 3-rail trucks/couplers for the price of postage. (I'm on the 2-rail receiving end of things now.)
• Realistic train lengths.
• Some serious rolling stock that plain didn't exist 20 years ago unless you built it from scratch. The down side to this is that many train slush funds took major hits.
• Speaking of, the value/beauty of scratch building.
• The value of building kits. Unfortunately, that turned 3-railers into your competitors on eBay.
• The "less is more" concept with respect to track on a layout.
• The value of switching operations over just "loop running."

Just a few thoughts. Now if you'll excuse me I have some rivets to count.

Well said Matt 

I would have to agree with Matt. I think he nailed it.

Matt:  Very eloquent indeed. 

Great stuff Matt

It is worth noting Kohs Is still in the planning stages of their Big Boy. To my knowledge Kohs has yet to produce a Big Boy

http://www.kohs.com/UP_BigBoy_...oy_Update-mobile.htm

Personally I think that large flanges move those right to hi-rail.

Anything not at least a decent attempt at a correct rail code/shape is hi-rail too.

---

 

IMO-The only difference between 2rs and 3rs should be that middle rail.

Its shape doesn't matter, it shouldn't really be there 99.9% of the time.

"0.05%" of the time, it should be a gear rack

 

 

 Actually to moan about truck width, and (some) radiuses seems petty on over gauge track when you could go proto 48 or build in matching scale if it bothers you.(1:43.5? 1:45? I forget)

 

 I wonder if the proto 48 folks blame 2rs/3rs on O gauge track for their continued high costs and low selection

 

  You would truly be helping "your way of thought" if you did it 100% right.

 Thank the sky guy for compromise, and us all helping each other no matter what the individual choice is eh 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  

    

 

 

I think that's normally gearing, and motors wired in parallel. Series wiring would help.

 

I don't think many 3railers, if any, love the high speed gearing.

I think its chosen more for a nice cruising speed at a reasonably low voltage.

Start up speed wasn't a goal on most till "command" made it a competitive point.

Before that, re-gearing was possibly on your list of chores too.

 

I find it astonishing some would rather have a fully detailed undercarriage, with detail you cant see till you flip the dang thing over, than exacting topside detail.

 Wow! I'm a toy nut, but would count and measure every rivet before I would think about flipping it over to look at the bottom too.

 

  

Fortunately, we aren't forced to do anything.  There are tons of engines and cars readily available on the secondary market that are more than suitable.  A trip to Indianapolis in Sept this Fall or Chicago in April next year will verify that condition.

 

Having just attended the East Penn meet I can also state that there no shortage of trolley and traction items available on secondary market, too.  I managed to exercise a modest amount of restraint by not buying a few transport tubs of cars and kits last month.

Plus, we can detail modify, kitbash...this car is a plastic shell from a "toy" trolley that Bowser used to sell; still being worked on but drastically different than the bright yellow child's trolley that it was sold as.