Help! "New" TMCC Loco keeps losing command signal

Not quite sure what to look for once I get the shell off - perhaps should just send it to Lionel for the repairs?

I suppose that it depends what you paid for it. It is a nice loco.

Do you have room to have it serviced and repaired?

The grease may have hardened. It should be checked for a cleaning and re-lubed. A hard shot may have loosened a board or connector.

I'm sure the seller will pay for the repair.

Make sure that there isn't a part of the hanrail that is bent and touching the shell directly.

If you open it up there will be wires going to one end of the handrail under the shell.Its fairly obvious.

If they are still attached to the handrail ends follow the wire back to the board and see if it came loose there.

Hi Lyle,

RickO is right on the money, if the handrail is touching the shell you will have this problem. I'm always working on Lionel engine's and I happen to have one opened right now, here's a photo of the antenna connecting to the hand rails.

I also agree with Moonman, check too see if there's a loose circuit board

Thanks,

Alex

Guys - you have been a lot of help - the handrails are not bent and not touching the loco shell - so I guess I'll open her up and see what I can see.  I'm wondering why, when I touch the rails, the loco works fine and receives the command signal just perfectly.

A grounding issue?

The human body is a wonderful antenna, in this digital/satellite age we tend to forget this

Lyle,

If you have a multi meter, switch it too continuity . take one lead and touch the inside of the shell take the other lead and touch the handrail, if you hear a buzz that means you the antenna is touching the shell.

Also since you said this engine was dropped during shipping, I would bet there's a loose board inside.

Alex

Well, I just opened her up and double checked all connections - the antenna connections are tight - even re-screwed a wire nut to which the antenna leads were  attached. And man, is that shell PACKED full of wires and electronics - the most I've seen in any of these.

Still does the same thing.  Again, all I have to do is BARELY touch each side of the handrails with my fingers and the flickering headlight stops flickering, and the engine runs fine. If I let go, she flickers, and the engines stutters and she stops.

It's as though when I touch the two sidewalls (antennae) with my fingers I complete some kind of circuit?

Can you post a photo of the inside of your loco?  I'd like to see the boards

Sounds like a ground issue. I have the same issues. Try to keep the power and ground wires on the layout at least 6 inches apart. signal is being corrupted which could be causing the problem. In addition, change the antenna off of the base. Lionel does not sell them but of you ask them the spec's on the antenna, you can but one from a antenna specialist. The extended antenna helps. 

The other item, is the antenna's in the engine may not be as good as they should be. I have a few CCII engines that do the same exact thing. I had to run a ground wire above the layout to keep the signal clean.

Older engines as well as the new 2014 engine I just got seem to perform better with the ground away from the power line. Both, my new Conrail SD70ace and Milwaukee Road 267 Steamer do the exact same thing. What is interesting is that it is not at the same spot on my layout and then some times it does't happen at all.

Ghosts 

RK - she was hard to get closed up so I'm gonna pass on taking that pic.  Think I'm just gonna send her to Lionel.  She's a beauty, and I really want to keep her.

PSU1980 - I have two other TMCC locos and two Legacy - no issues whatsoever - so I don't think it's a signal strength issue.  In fact, I have the Lionel President Harrison PS4 TMCC Loco, which is almost identical to this loco - and she runs great.

Thanks guys.

I'm going to hit the sack guys.  I'll sleep on it and will see what the seller is willing to do tomorrow - pretty sure they will pay for the return to Lionel.

Alex M,

Is there an insulator where the handrail pass through the shell? Perhaps it is not insulating?

A couple of things. 

• The base antenna is for communication between the CAB-2 and the Legacy base,  Unless the red light is flashing on the Cab-2 no need to change the base antenna.
• is the Legacy Base wall wart plugged directly into a grounded outlet?  If not that can degrade the signal and a marginal engine might have issues.
• Can you try the engine on another layout?  If it doesn't work then it may be an issue with the radio board.
• Hold a 3-4ft long wire 3-4in above the engine parallel to the track.  If the headlight quits flickering then it's definitely a ground signal problem.  You probably need to run a ground wire to get it running.  We run them on telephone poles next to the track.  Works great. 
• Hold a 3-4 ft wire about 2-3 inches above the locomotive.  If the headlight stops flashing then for sure it a ground signal issue.  The only way your going to fix it is

Yes there is, that could very well be the problem, especially that the engine was tossed around during shipping. The way to test that is with a continuity tester. I wish I had the engine in front of me, I could fix it in a few minutes. LOL LOL

Alex

I just looked at your photo again Lyle, what about where the handrail passes outside of the extra piping on the front of the loco. Does it touch any of the piping? The only thing the handrails should touch is the stanchions it is mounted to.

On a side note, Lionel has a replacement  truck if your repair doesn't hold out.

Heres a link:

Lionel 11103 replacement parts

The handrail is not touching the body at all - also not touching any of the applied piping.

The insulators where the antenna meets the shell appear to be fine - no damage at all.

I'm trying to understand the "holding a wire above the loco" suggestion.  Just  a 3ft piece of wire - not attached to anything -  and just hold it above the loco, parallel with the track???

Lyle,

It's very possible that the handrail is touching the shell, it might be a spot that you can't see. This is a very common problem. You need to do a continuity test. That's the only way too make sure. If that handrail is touching the shell, it will totally destroy the signal. You need a multimeter set on continuity, one lead too the inside of the shell, the other on the handrail (check both handrails)

Thanks,

Alex

Ok - I will try  the continuity test Wed afternoon when I get home from work. Not quite sure how to set the mutimeter to "continuity" though!

It's the setting with this symbol  Ω   Ohms

You should get a reading of zero or close to it-handrail to handrail. If there is any resistance it is touching the shell.

Handrail to shell should definitely be zero.

Thanks - I'll let you know what I find

I had the exact same problem with two Legacy Steam engines. Go to u tube and goggle ground plane wire.

I just found something interesting,  it is the STANCHIONS that are connected to the antenna wires on the inside of the shell.  In other words, the antenna handrails on the outside of the shell do not enter the shell through a hole and connect to the wires - it is one stanchion on each side that connects thru the shell.  I am wondering if perhaps the handrail antenna is simply not being held snugly by the stanchions and thus the connection is iffy. (that might explain why, when I hold the handrails, everything works - perhaps when I touch the handrails, I'm moving the handrail just enough to insure contact the stanchion?

The wire doesn't need to be attached to anything except your hands.  Your body collects the air ground signal and it then radiates through the wire.  It's an extension of the "hold your hand over the engine" trick.   It's a quick substitute for a ground wire (which is also known by the term "ground plane".)  It gives you a very good simulation of what would happen if you installed a ground wire parallel to the problem track. It easiest with two people.   We've used this method at the club (with longer wires) to determine where and what length we want to install ground wires.  

Lyle, As the guys have told you; you need to use a continuity meter and see if the hand rails are conducting to the engine shell.  If so, that is "grounding" the antenna to  outside rail AC power and preventing the antenna from working.

If the antenna is not grounded to the frame, the other problem can be a weak R2LC/R4LC Receiver board.  Basically not tuned right or poor sensitivity so it can't pick up a TMCC signal.

The "ground plane" the guys are talking about is different than the Track ground and has to do with how the signal is propagated.  Your body act as an enhancement to the TMCC signal and can make a weak receiver work fine as long as you enhance the TMCC signal.

Since your other trains are fine, chances are your track is fine.  You need to test the engine antenna, if fine, swap the engines Radio Receiver.  One or the other will fix this.

There are plenty of side bars thing that can be done, but since your not familiar with all of this YET!  Best to do the 2 test, than do a search on this forum and you can learn what all the technical issues are.   G

OK - seller has sent me a UPS return label - he has an in-house authorized Lionel Service Technician.

Once I get her back, will let you guys know what's up - I simply am not knowledgable enough to fix this myself without doing some damage to the loco in the process.

Thanks again!