Would you leave old 1950 Lionel Transformers running trains without adult supervision over any length of time? How long is too long? I would like to hear your experiences. There's a reason I am asking this question.
Scott Smith
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Just my opinion but, I would NOT allow ANY trains to be running without adult supervision, no mater WHAT the transformer!
Not too long. Why are you asking?
Are you asking about the transformers themselves? Or the person at the controls?
Think of a museum setting.
Scott
My layout with all kinds of transformers is never powered up without me in the room and watching what is going on.
Even though I "trust" my layout's electrical systems I do not leave it while it is on, regardless of the operator. When my session is finshed I totally disconnect it from an active circuit.
Scott; I'd only do it for a few minutes maximum at best. I had the cord on my original purchase ZW start smoking right where the cord exited the molded plug. All the flexing over the years eventually made the wires break internally and start heating up. So, I would need a fresh cord for starters, plus I'd make sure all four circuits had fast-blow 10amp fuses installed between the ZW & the track.
I would never leave any set unattended for any period of time no matter the age of the transformer. I would make sure all users are trained in electrical safety and that includes children. I would rather have an educated child attending to a layout than an uneducated adult.
My rule has always been to turn off my power switches on my control panel and to unplug the layout. Maybe this is overkill, but electrical fires Are no fun.
All the best,
Miketg
I would ahead and get a newer transformer. That would be cheaper than fire damage repasirs!
We've run a LW for several hours at a time with the club displays. I wouldn't think of leaving it running unattended for any period of time.
Just my $0.02
Gilly
Never
I would never leave any transformer unattended by myself or some other knowledgeable adult. In my opinion leaving a transformer unattended without adult supervision is a risky venture.
Never without supervision.
Never
I'm amazed that you are asking. You should already know the answer.
!NEVER, EVER, Do So!
I would never leave any transformer new or old unattended. It only takes a second for something to happen.
Zero minutes or hours.
Never. I had my KW permanently plugged into a outlet controlled by a wall switch . After running the trains and shutting Off the wall switch we somehow turned it back on again causing a train to derail . We're now up stairs. Thank goodness I had changed the KWs circuit breaker to an electronic one as it had been turning on and off for quite some time. (hours)
Got lucky on that one.
Originally Posted by scott.smith:
Think of a museum setting.
Scott
Please describe the project in more detail, Scott.
Is this permanent or temporary? Permanent may need to follow local building codes.
I once did a holiday display where I had my ZW plugged into an outlet controlled by a motion sensor, so the power was only on when visitors were present. There was no operator in attendance.
In addition to that, you could put a heat sensor on the case, so if it got too warm it would shut down til it cooled off.
All of that on top of fuse/circuit breaker protection, of course.
I'm also in the "not ever" category. Someone competant (to handle an electrical problem) should be watching over them, even if that person doesn't know a thing about toy trains.
Andy
Since I protected each individual circuit with a properly adjusted Lionel #91 electromagnetic circuit breaker, I never had a problem with my kids turning on the train layout (power strip) and running the trains by themselves.
My kids are grown. I don't know that I would do the same today.
Only for the time it took to take a sip of my adult beverage!
OK, so what most of you are saying is that even with the power shut off to the tracks, the transformer itself is dangerous to leave on? I suppose it follows that a 180 brick is much more dangerous than a wall wart. I have several flashlights that the wal wart stays plugged in continuously, ok or not. I run my cove wall heater thermostats through a transformer, ok or not and why. Thanks
I too would never leave a transformer unattended/unwatched or train for that matter.
The longest I have ever left my layout powered up without me in the room was the two minutes it takes to use the bathroom. I would never trust it longer than that.
Originally Posted by scott.smith:
Think of a museum setting.
Scott
we are a museum and no layout is ever left unattended.
OK I'll go into some more detail. I help out on the layout at the VA Museum of Transportation. Recently one of the older volunteers that had been rewiring the layout (home run wiring)passed away. Since his passing one of the younger members of the club came in to finish what Bob had started.
Today I went over to the layout to see if the new wiring would allow me to run with DCS this Saturday. To my surprise the Z-1000 bricks had been moved aside and all the tracks had been rewired into some really old ZW and KW's that were sitting under the layouts that were only used by the club on special events when the transformers could be baby sat.
So I proceeded to the museum office and let them know we had a major problem on our hands. I explained to them that what was done was a really bad idea. One of them even said the trains have never run better. So now the layout is shut down and I have to take off from work tomorrow to rewire to the newer old transformers (MTH Z1000's). I really don't have the time to spend playing with the wiring at the museum tomorrow. Saturday is one of the special event days at the museum and they need to have nice trains (with smoke) running for the kids.
I wanted confirmation that I wasn't over reacting when I told them the problems with those old transformers.
Scott Smith
I agree that you need to get those modern transformers back online. Their UL certifications are more up to date.
Are the museum staff going to be able to keep an eye on the layout? Not constantly, just periodically.
I recently had a RW cord melt down that I used to power accessories on the layout. For weeks I could smell something but could not figure out what is was until I unplugged it from the light bar it was plugged into. Nothing but a few strands of wire holding it together between the cord and plug. I am lucky nothing happened.
There is no way to fix stupid.
The original Lionel Corporation ran 4 ZW's to power their New York showroom layout 8 hrs/day and apparently there were no issues. Places like the Cho Choo Barn, and Roadside America also run all day during holiday season. As long as the transformer has circuit protection on the AC line and on the track end, you should be OK.
As long as the transformer has circuit protection on the AC line and on the track end, you should be OK.
Dennis,
They have neither.
Scott Smith
I use a MTH Z1000 brick on TimeSaver. It's got a very good breaker. Good choice of transformer in my book.
Gilly
Cords would be the most vulnerable component due to breakdown of aging insulation and possible mechanical damage at plug. The core and coils will probably outlive owners. If using an older transformer for prolonged operating periods, probably a good idea to replace the power cords.
About 10 years ago, out club replaced its zws with z-4000s . The zws had a fan added for cooling . Only one tap was used . These worked fine without problem for numerous 5-6 hr operating sessions without incident.
Scott,
Never ever without supervision, no matter how new or how old the transformer happens to be.
PCRR/Dave
Years ago in the 1970s I made a bet with an HO buddy that my N gauge pike could run unattended through the most complicated route through any switches he might choose. We set a train running and went downstairs for a couple of brews for a half hour. After the half hour was up we went back up and.....Behold! those little N gaugers were still scurrying around through all those switches in great style. Would I trust my $900.00 Lionel engines to run unattended powered by my old Lionel Type V or KW transformers for any length of time? I doubt it. Too many other problems could crop up like unwanted uncoupling or a derailment or a failure of track or wheels. Also running nearly seventy year old transformers could be a fire hazard. Oh well, to each his own. Odd-d
Originally Posted by scott.smith:
As long as the transformer has circuit protection on the AC line and on the track end, you should be OK.
Dennis,
They have neither.
Scott Smith
Not hard to put a circuit breaker on both input and output. On input side you can get a cord with an integral circuit breaker. On the output you can buy an inexpensive circuit breaker that will disconnect if say 5 or 6 amps are exceeded or just put in an auto fuze holder. .
I wouldn't leave any transformer running without adult supervision except for a potty break. Stop to think about it -- even the earliest Z4K's are getting a bit old.
Originally Posted by Dennis LaGrua:
The original Lionel Corporation ran 4 ZW's to power their New York showroom layout 8 hrs/day and apparently there were no issues.
The old Lionel corporation didn't have ZW's with 60 year old wiring inside or 60 year old cords.
Gerry
quote:Today I went over to the layout to see if the new wiring would allow me to run with DCS this Saturday. To my surprise the Z-1000 bricks had been moved aside and all the tracks had been rewired into some really old ZW and KW's that were sitting under the layouts that were only used by the club on special events when the transformers could be baby sat.
Any postwar Lionel transformer should be serviced by an experienced Lionel repairman before being used, particularly if it is going in a public place, or is going to be used unattended.
Anything questionable would need to be addressed.
That means there isn't going to be a problem with a rotted cord, as FMC wrote about.
In addition, external circuit breakers on each power output would be a must. I would go with a quick acting, manual reset breaker. On a public layout, I'd go with a fixed value breaker, because adjustable ones could be subject to tampering.
My house is approaching being sixty years old. Do I need to rip out all the wiring and plumbing? I have a number of table lamps that are well over sixty years old. Their cords have been replaced. Should I throw them away?
Assuming the transformer's innards aren't rusty / corroded, other than the power cord, what is there to go bad due to age that could cause a safety hazard?
