How long would you leave an old ZW or KW Transfomer plugged up and running trains without supervision?

I'm with the "never" crowd.  If trains are running, someone responsible needs to be in attendance.

Not at all with out a Conductor on site.

If I am going to leave for more than a couple of hours, I turn off all of my power strips which I have on most of my appliances and especially on my transformers....

Alan

I would never leave any train transformer un-attended especially the newer ones!

The newer transformers have too many electronics in them for me to fell safe even using, let alone walk away from one for a minute!!

I always unplug all my layout power. For some it might seem like over kill but I don't trust FPL; a.k.a. "Flickering Powerless & Lightless," they have too many wires that can get hit be lightning.

Lee Fritz

TIME  JAN 1950   I was in Fishers Hobby  Shop with my old 736 in pieces,

remember I'm smarter than LIONEL, when I asked this question of the repairman,

ALWAYS unplug your trains when finished, NEVER any exceptions.

Now go watch a movie, your engine will be ready in 2 hrs.

I have never forgotten that, and I still use the KW and ZW.

Rod

I wouldn't leave any 60 year old electrical anything run unattended.

I wouldn't run modern trains with a 60 year old transformer either, especially as sensative as MTH electronics are.

I'd be willing to bet the majority of modern loco  "smoking board failure" posts on the forum are folks that use that" cool old affordable classic transformer", with the old fashioned circuit protection.

00:00:00 

If after presenting them with the anecdotal evidence from the Forum the museum staff still feels that it's safe, ask them how long they would leave a live Arc Welder in public unattended.

r0d

Never!

.....

Dennis

I use only postwar transformers on my layout - ZW, RW & 2 KWs.  All have had the cords replaced.   That being said, I will only leave them running alone to take a potty break, or go in the hall to talk to my wife for a few minutes.  The problems I have had have been more train uncouples or derails than transformer problems, but I would always been within earshot of the trains.  Even Lucia (and she's 3) knows to tell me if the red light comes on the transformers if she is in there & I walk away for a minute. 

Learned my lesson the hard way.  As a result the answer is,

Never.  I am sure many Forum members have seen the movie

Hindenburg. That is my rule now and until I can not run my

trains due to old, old age.

Many thanks,

Billy C

I use several "old" Lionel transformers on my layout. I use 2 Type Z 250 W, 1 Type V 150 W, and a Type R that is 100 W. All cords have been replaced and serviced by a professional. I have fuses and fast blow circuit breakers on them all, and every "old" transformer provides power for one thing.......................lights, accessories, etc. Wouldn't think of using them to run modern command control trains at all, although I admit they are safe to do so. To leave them unattended or at the mercy of children, tsk tsk. You are asking for the problems you will get.

Ok, so for those who don't trust leaving power to a transformer, how many of you have older wiring in your home?  How many have lamps that are 30 plus years old, how old is your toaster, fridge and range, do you unplug those every time you leave the room? 

I spent the morning rewiring the layout and right now I am using several of my Z-1000's to power the layout. It appears we have 5 Z-1000's that will be donated from two different sources. Wednesday morning I will go put those new transformers on the layout.

Scott Smith

Apples to oranges as a wiseman once said. My toaster and stove and washer and dryer while electric aren't on continuously and certainly not when I'm not home.

Jerry

quote:

Learned my lesson the hard way.  As a result the answer is,

Never.  I am sure many Forum members have seen the movie

Hindenburg. That is my rule now and until I can not run my

trains due to old, old age.

Are you saying your Postwar Lionel transformer burst into flames?

Just curious:

Of the folks that have problems with a Lionel postwar transformer, how many would leave a modern era transformer plugged in with the trains running?

Is the issue the postwar transformer, or leaving any train running?

I always turn everything off.

Always there when I leave it on, never when I leave the room, case in point. I 

had a American flyer transformer and I was running it for awhile all of a sudden 

there was smoke coming out of the light sockets I quickly turned it off, later I 

took it apart and found the wood that was used to put it together started 

to burn away.

Tin 

I have no problem running MTH with 60+year old transformers, with external breakers.  But I also have a new Z4000 on the layout.  I never leave any on when I'm not around.  There is too much that can go wrong that the finest breaker or other device will not protect against.

There was a post on the first page of this thread mentioning wall warts.  Be advised, they are a frequent cause of fires.  In fact, I was in the Brunswick MD RR museum a few years ago and alerted the person on duty that something was burning somewhere.  We eventually traced it down to a wall wart powering a telephone.

We had a ZW when I was a kid that burned up on Christmas Eve, black smoke was pouring out of it. After we pulled it and opened it up the core was toast. Borrowed my uncles LW to get us thru Christmas.

Jerry

I never leave it unattended and I have all modern transformers--ZW-l, PW ZW and 180 Lionel bricks.  When I leave for vacation, everything gets unplugged.

To me as I said before that I would never leave power going to transformers unattended. To me age does not play a part. Here are some things that I know first hand.

At a big public display during Christmas time in a volunteer fire station that I was involved with back around 2002 to 2005 and it operated over 30 days a year. At the time I had designed the display to have between 12 to 16 trains running independently each on it's own separate tracks. We used MTH at the time with their remote commander receivers. And during that time period I personally witnessed at least 6 of those remote commander receivers burn up. During the operating of the display out of those I saw 2 of them flaming. And that does not count the ones that burnt up when I was not there.

We had a separate room where we worked on the trains. One year someone left the power on the the transformer used in the room (in the fire house). Well we were lucky that the room had sprinklers in it. Needless to say that transformer caused the fire that started in that room and caused about $6000 in damage before the fire alarm started going off. Also it was lucky that the person who left the power on did shut the door to the room which was located in one of the fire equipment bays.

One year a box car on a train derailed in one of the tunnels. Well the one end of box car that derailed did catch the end of the car on fire, the box car was a MPC 9700 box car. This was a number of years ago, back in the late 80's and we were using a transformer built by a electrician who was a member of the fire company. The transformer he built could operate 12 trains using DC current at a time. I always had my doubts about it because because a large number of trains motors wound burn up in 30 days time.

I got back involved in it in the late 90's and we started going with MTH trains and using their transformers instead of the beast and we had very few problems until the problems started with the remote commander receivers.

It does not matter old or new, never leave power to unattended transformers.

Simple, NEVER!

Steve, Lady and Tex

Install an AFCI in the panel that supplies the circuit or circuits to the transformers for additional safety.

An Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter (AFCI) is a Circuit Breaker designed to prevent fires by detecting an unintended electrical arc and disconnecting the power before the arc starts a fire.

I hope you vacation daily, or unplug more often.

All depends what "unattended" means. I think if you are working or otherwise distracted out and around a running layout it could be OK. You would notice a difference in sound, smell, and perhaps movement. MY LHS usually always has an HO and an O gauge train running. They are not directly supervising the operation.

But to be physically absent or separated from the space I think is a bad idea - for any length of time.

quote:

One year a box car on a train derailed in one of the tunnels. Well the one end of box car that derailed did catch the end of the car on fire, the box car was a MPC 9700 box car. This was a number of years ago, back in the late 80's and we were using a transformer built by a electrician who was a member of the fire company. The transformer he built could operate 12 trains using DC current at a time. I always had my doubts about it because because a large number of trains motors wound burn up in 30 days time.

It sure sounds like that setup did not have proper circuit protection. In my experience, an electromagnetic circuit breaker will trip almost instantly on a derailment.

CWB:  The breaker in a transformer is intended to protect the transformer.  It is possible to have currents that pose no hazard to the transformer, but create substantial and possibly dangerous heating and temperatures on the layout.  I have had derailments that didn't pop a breaker, but a car truck got hot.  I have also had internal wiring in a car melt the insulation, and have had a UCS magnet burn out when a button stuck.

If someone wants to wire a circuit to handle 10 locos, it has to have ampacity in the breakers that exceeds safe limits for a derailment.

As to a house, when going away it is wise to shut off the water, since pipes do break and vandals do things with outside faucets.  If the water is off, then one should turn off the water heater.  If the burners stay on or the thermostat welds itself in the on position, the heater will overheat without water to cool it.

A dryer should never be left running.  It is not uncommon for electric dryer thermostats to weld into the open position.

Some fire departments recommend unplugging wall warts.

To answer a question earlier in the thread:  In addition to power cords, varnish insulation on a transformer coil can fail.

When I was around 13 years old I bought a KW and it turned out the circuit breaker was NOT working, and I did not know.

At one time there was a short on the tracks and I was feeding the track with undersized Bell wires, and the insulation melted off.

Around 1998 I got around to replacing the breaker, and replaced the plug, which has the benefit of also allowing me to phase it to my bricks.

About six years ago I gave that KW to some guy that reconditioned them. I didn't even want to sell it; I have too many savings to be willing to let myself be open to a lawsuit over something as stupid as that. Paranoid? Perhaps. Still have the money? Sure do!

In my opinion, pitch the KW and get some modern equipment.

CW almost.  Before I went into TMCC with the 1998 Transformer

I had two trains running with my 1950 ZW.  Made the mistake of

going downstairs to get a coffee.  Phone rings, my brother gives

me a call from Rhode Island.  Wants to talk about the PATS.  

I am in Florida this is about 2004.  I tell him I believe the PATS

will win the whole thing.  Go back upstairs to the train room.

Not good.  Smoke is comming out of the PW ZW.  I put my hand

on the cover.  Hot and getting hotter.  Shut off all electric on the

layout including the second ZW I am using for lights & accessories,

plus wall outlets.

The problem was as Baltimoretrain Works stated in his Post, the

core was gone ("Toast") was able to get it repaired.  Today it is

on accessory duty only.  I check under the layout after every run

session with the trains, just to be safe.  As for the PATS in 2004

I was right.  Have not been right since then regarding the PATS.

Oh well the trains run great, that is what counts for me at this

station in life.  Good Topic.

Many thanks,

Billy C   

quote:

CWB:  The breaker in a transformer is intended to protect the transformer.  It is possible to have currents that pose no hazard to the transformer, but create substantial and possibly dangerous heating and temperatures on the layout.  I have had derailments that didn't pop a breaker, but a car truck got hot.  I have also had internal wiring in a car melt the insulation, and have had a UCS magnet burn out when a button stuck.

We are in agreement about the internal circuit breaker. I guess you missed my frequent comments about the need for external breakers on each powered transformer output (as opposed to the common). They should be fast acting. (Such a breaker would not protect a UCS coil against a struck button.)

It is also every easy to accidentally create a circuit on some transformers that do not include the breaker.

So, I'll ask again, would these issues go away by using a modern transformer, such as a Z-1000 brick, as the original poster seems to believe?

NEVER, NEVER, NEVER!!!

 Never  !!

CWB:  I completely agree, and have often said in various, that there should be an external breaker on each output of a transformer.  In fact, on my old ZWs & KWs, I use both an external breaker and an external fuse (with a higher rating than the breaker) as redundancy.  I also have an external breaker on each output of my Z4000.

(In case any reader isn't aware of it, CWB is referring to the fact that internal breakers in old ZWs, KWs, etc. are on the common output only.)

My point was that there can be events which will not trigger any breaker, but can generate sufficient heat out on the layout.  For example, take a Z4000, with 10 amps per circuit.  8 amps through a fine wire or a truck can cause considerable heat.

The priginal premise was about leaving layouts turned on.  One never know when there is a stuck button.  I had been running quite awhile before I smelled the UCS coil, and it took me awhiel to find out where the problem was.

Scrapiron:  When I see all these old ZWs at train shows, I wonder how they are internally.  I'm sure not every seller, even a dealer, has refurnished or inspected the insides.

Absolutely positively never! Except for very short intervals. I used to have an inexpensive hour timer on the plug so if I forgot it would turn the power off. Furthermore the transformer should never be placed under the layout if used for accessories. It should be able to be vent and have nothing that can burn above the transformer.

There is really two issues here

1. Would you leave trains running unattended or without supervision?  The answer i think really is never. Derailments, accidents or what have you can occur when least expected in the train layout and you never want to leave these events to occur without the possibility of intervention to minimize the consequences.

2. Would you leave an old lionel transformer operating unattended or without supervision? The answer is again never. Any transformer can fail and the risk that it will fail does increase as it ages. Many of us that do use classic zws for layout power have not been inside them so we really cant tell about the internal condition. Dried insulation in an external power cord can be seen because it cracks. It can give the user who touches it a jolt . So cords may need to be replaced at the very least to use an old zw.

several posters talk of using secondary breakers and/or  fuses on all track feeds. This is sound practice to minimize the amount of time a train is subject to short circuit. One should do this even if using a brand new transformer and not a zw from 1950.

should you leave any transformer old or new energized and unattended an unsupervisized ? The answer is likely never, simply because it can fail and the owner has not seen the internals to make a judgement about its condition.

Surely there must be museum or display situations where trains run continuously without constant supervision. So a better question might be, what kind of equipment would be most suitable for those situations?

We have all kinds of electrical and electronic equipment that operates for hours on end and people think nothing of leaving those activated. And some of those items might be quite old.

With model trains, there are also concerns that the trains might derail or have other issues. But if a layout is fine-tuned and thoroughly tested for reliability, unattended operation for display purposes should be feasible with the right equipment.

I think many hobby shops would benefit to have an actual operating layout, although a timed push-button control might be more suitable than continuous operation.

The only train I sometimes operate unattended is a lightweight battery-powered creation which doesn't have any derailment problems at reasonable speeds. Sometimes I leave it running upstairs just to hear the clickety-clack sounds of steel wheels running on steel rails. Actually, that doesn't count as completely unattended because I can hear if it stops running normally, but that is as close as I get to operating a train without being there to always watch it.

Those layouts usually don't involve switching or backing, which are prime causes of derailments.

I wonder how they power the layouts in the TCA museum?