K-Line Die-Cast Hoppers?

@MainLine Steam posted:

I know that most, if not all K-Line Plastic Hoppers are "small".

Are all K-Line Die-Cast Hoppers scale size? They look pretty nice in pictures online, are they good "in person"?

Thanks in advance.

This may be of some help

K-Line Numbering Scheme

Irregardless if some if not all are scale, they each weigh as much as a Pontiac. Something to consider dragging those heavy slugs around your layout, especially if you have grades! 😳

Pat

I can’t say for sure…but they are heavy !

Thanks for the responses.  Still unsure though.

The ones I am looking at are 2 Bay Types:  K6251 (smooth side), K6253 (rib side), K6255 (composite / outside braced wood).  I currently have Weaver 2 Bays which are scale, so trying to figure out how they would compare size wise.  The Weavers are very light, so need "ballast" to get to a reasonable weight.  I was thinking Die-Cast made sense to solve this, but sounds like maybe "overkill".  Also like the look of the wire ladder rungs.

I like the die cast ones. Not sure if all are scale. They look more realistic than plastic imo.  

I have several of the K-line 2 bay die cast hoppers (about 14) roll very nice, But HEAVY !! I use  F7 A / B units (both powered 4 motors) to move them around the layout.  A single 2 motor unit struggles !!

Compare in weight to MTH die-cast from the 90's. Definitely a heavy car. That said, pulling a drag of 15 MTH, 1 K-line with MTH Imperial Allegheny,  or Big Boy hasn't  had power problems up a 2%. The MTH couplers are a different story, some let go.

I have some. The details like stirrups are thicker than scale, but I would rather have them thick and not broken than scale.  They look marvelous. But the reality is you have to shorten the length of the train. Might be great for a layout on a door or a 4x8. I think I have some MTH diecast. Had a LIonel diecast IC hopper but the shipper put the car in a box with no packing what so ever

Somebody probably specializes in collecting these.  How about a list of the road names offered and/or pictures ? (I have one somewhere, and agree that they make good doorstops)

I've got (maybe) a half-dozen of the 2-bay models; they are indeed heavy, very nice and I think I posted a thread here once about converting some to 2 rail, with Kadee couplers (easy) and Intermountain wheel sets (a bit of work).

Mark in Oregon

I have several K-Line Diecast Hoppers. They are scale sized. Each weighs in at 2 pounds 11 oz, so no issues staying on the rails. Some of the wheel sets are very free rolling,  on an incline they are moving  - makes pulling long sets a bit easier on the engines. The "real" coal loads are sooo much better than the plastic shells - IMO.

A photo of two K6255s on my "under construction" layout.

The numbering system on Trainz is helpful, but it can still be difficult to figure out whether it is scale or semi on web sale site. I once thought "O Scale Classics" meant the cars were scale - not exactly - some were, some not so, if the bottom front of the black box shows "O and O27" its going to be semi.

Check out this site for more detailed info  LegacyKline database 

Since I was a kid, my favorite car was the Lehigh Valley 4-bay brown (but I saw it as "purple") hopper car from my dad's #682 turbine steamer set.  About 15 years ago, I decided to build a long 4 bay hopper consist of Lionel postwar and modern eras.  I had to change out the postwar trucks to Bittendorf ones to reduce the drag.

Then I purchased a collection of rolling stock which included a K-line 4-bay hopper.  I was impressed with the detail.  There are about the same length as a Lionel 4 bay, but seem a little "wider".  I love the die cast feel!  I am now slowly building an all-K-line hopper consist and have about 20 cars so far with plans to purchase more!  Since I am in the midst of building a layout, I have only a few on the track right now.  I too, have grades and will likely have double or triple header steam engines to pull them.

You can be a little proactive with the drag by thoroughly lubricating the wheels...it makes a HUGE difference.

I don't know if I will combine the Lionel hoppers with the K-line to have over 40 cars in the consist.  I may also want to remove the Bittendorf trucks off of the Lionel hoppers and place them on the K-line.  We'll see!

Thanks to all that have replied, it sounds like they are scale.  Think I might try one out.

I decided to photograph a Weaver 2 Bay Rib Side, which is what I would be running it with.  Please see the photos for the size.  If someone that has a K-Line Die-Cast 2 Bay could measure it and post the dimensions it would be appreciated.  Could serve as a reference for others in the future.

Thanks again!

I’m sorry people fixated on the weight of these models when you are asking if they are 1:48 scale. Succinct answer: Yes, they are. I bought mine for this reason years ago.

@Jim R. posted:

I’m sorry people fixated on the weight of these models when you are asking if they are 1:48 scale. Succinct answer: Yes, they are. I bought mine for this reason years ago.

Thanks for the confirmation!

@ScoutingDad posted:

I have several K-Line Diecast Hoppers. They are scale sized. Each weighs in at 2 pounds 11 oz, so no issues staying on the rails. Some of the wheel sets are very free rolling,  on an incline they are moving  - makes pulling long sets a bit easier on the engines. The "real" coal loads are sooo much better than the plastic shells - IMO.

A photo of two K6255s on my "under construction" layout.

The numbering system on Trainz is helpful, but it can still be difficult to figure out whether it is scale or semi on web sale site. I once thought "O Scale Classics" meant the cars were scale - not exactly - some were, some not so, if the bottom front of the black box shows "O and O27" its going to be semi.

Check out this site for more detailed info  LegacyKline database

Thanks for the confirmation!

Here’s somes pictures of a 2 bay hopper.

I bought a case of 4 of these at York a few years back.

As a few others have mentioned, yes, the 2-bay cars are scale…and very nicely detailed.  I think the coal loads are some of the nicest of any mass-produced coal hoppers…and somewhat unique in that the coal chunks are large, which is a nice representation of “run-of-mine” coal rather than the more common smaller pieces that represent coal after it has been processed.

Lionel later marketed and sold these former-K-Line cars for a short period under the “K-Line by Lionel” label.  For anyone interested, here’s a post from a few years ago showing how I 3-rail scaled two K-Line by Lionel CNJ 2-bay open hoppers by adding Kadee couplers.  You’ll have to scroll down a bit once the page loads.

@MainLine Steam posted:

Thanks for the responses.  Still unsure though.

The ones I am looking at are 2 Bay Types:  K6251 (smooth side), K6253 (rib side), K6255 (composite / outside braced wood).  I currently have Weaver 2 Bays which are scale, so trying to figure out how they would compare size wise.  The Weavers are very light, so need "ballast" to get to a reasonable weight.  I was thinking Die-Cast made sense to solve this, but sounds like maybe "overkill".  Also like the look of the wire ladder rungs.

I have the ribbed sides and they are compatible with Atlas O in terms of scale sized.

Thanks for the replies!  The pictures made me have to have one or two.

I went ahead and bought 2 from Trainz.  They have free shipping today with a $100 purchase.  No I didn't pay $50 a piece, there was PLENTY of other stuff that caught my eye to get me to that total.  LOL

Can't wait to get them.

I have a bunch of B&O die cast 2 bay hoppers. 3 Lionel, 9 Atlas, and 11 K-Line. EM-1 can pull them fine, just need to make sure they are in front of all the non-die cast hoppers. Occasionally couplers fail. Hoping that when I can get my Big Six lashed up as a pusher, that won't be an issue anymore.

@CNJ #1601 posted:

As a few others have mentioned, yes, the 2-bay cars are scale…and very nicely detailed.  I think the coal loads are some of the nicest of any mass-produced coal hoppers…and somewhat unique in that the coal chunks are large, which is a nice representation of “run-of-mine” coal rather than the more common smaller pieces that represent coal after it has been processed.

Lionel acquired the K-Line tooling and offered these cars for a short period as “K-Line by Lionel”.  Not sure if they still have the tooling?  For anyone interested, here’s a post from a few years ago showing how I converted two CNJ hoppers to Kadee couplers.  You’ll have to scroll down a bit once the page loads.

Lionel did not acquire most of the tooling for the limited K-Line by Lionel line. Sanda Kan retained K-Line’s tooling (but sold some), and Kader took over the tooling with its acquisition of Sanda Kan.

@Jim R. posted:

Lionel did not acquire most of the tooling for the limited K-Line by Lionel line. Sanda Kan retained K-Line’s tooling (but sold some), and Kader took over the tooling with its acquisition of Sanda Kan.

Thanks for the clarification, Jim.  I could have chosen my words more carefully…but the gist of my comment stands.  Lionel, for a short period of time after K-Line’s closing up shop (for the reasons we all know!) marketed and sold some of the former K-Line products as “K-Line by Lionel” including—but not limited to—the 2-bay die-cast hoppers discussed in this thread.  

On a side note, Lionel also marketed and sold the highly-detailed (for that time) K-Line GP38 locomotives under the “Lionel” name.  I still own a pair of Lionel D&H GP38-2’s with the very first Legacy control system.  Anyone know where that GP38 tooling went? Does Kader have it now?

I ended up selling most of my die cast hoppers including the K-Line ones because of the weight.  The ones I ended up keeping were the several variations of the TCA Desert Division copper plated hoppers that were done for the 2009 TCA national convention.  The banquet car had a turquoise load and was limited to 100 units.  Other variations included the "copper hopper" that had a standard coal load and a 40th anniversary Desert Division version with a ruby load and a special decal.

They are wonderful scale cars, but as Pat points out they weigh as much as the prototype.   

@CNJ #1601 posted:

Thanks for the clarification, Jim.  I could have chosen my words more carefully…but the gist of my comment stands.  Lionel, for a short period of time after K-Line’s closing up shop (for the reasons we all know!) marketed and sold some of the former K-Line products as “K-Line by Lionel” including—but not limited to—the 2-bay die-cast hoppers discussed in this thread.  

On a side note, Lionel also marketed and sold the highly-detailed (for that time) K-Line GP38 locomotives under the “Lionel” name.  I still own a pair of Lionel D&H GP38-2’s with the very first Legacy control system.  Anyone know where that GP38 tooling went? Does Kader have it now?

The million-dollar question.  Kader likely has access to the tooling.  They don't own it outright as the factory owns controlling interest in the tooling, however with Bachmann exiting the O scale world, the only way to access the tooling if it is still with Kader would be for another manufacturer to negotiate a purchase and have it relocated to their own factory in the region as Bachmann limited access to the Sanda Kan factory by outside manufacturers when they took over the rest of the interest in the factory.  As we saw with some of the K-Line tooling RMT and later O-Line was able to negotiate access to some of the tools.

Purely supposition, but there are likely so many tools in the Sanda Kan facility that no one person probably knows what they have and where it is located.

@taycotrains posted:

Here’s somes pictures of a 2 bay hopper.

I bought a case of 4 of these at York a few years back.

I bet you got a hernia carrying them out of the fairgrounds. ….

its a shame, the cars are absolutely stunning, but all about worthless to run,….I own a bunch, and they just sit by the coaling tower,…..

Pat

K-Line @10.5” on the left, MTH Premier 12” on the right.

@harmonyards posted:

I bet you got a hernia carrying them out of the fairgrounds. ….

its a shame, the cars are absolutely stunning, but all about worthless to run,….I own a bunch, and they just sit by the coaling tower,…..

Pat

I have run one of these on an O-27 layout in a short train. No problems. What’s all this concern about its weight? No one needs to run a long unit train of these cars.

@Jim R. posted:

I have run one of these on an O-27 layout in a short train. No problems. What’s all this concern about its weight? No one needs to run a long unit train of these cars.

And that’s fine for a whimsical lap around an O27 layout at breakneck speeds, but anyone running a prototypical coal drag isn’t reaching for these slugs.

Pat

I love the K-line Die-cast hoppers with real coal loads.

Also, Atlas O made 2-bay Die-cast coal hoppers. I have a bunch of C&O and they look great.

Back in the Fall of 2004 at York, I purchased a 6-pack of PRR H22 diecast hoppers (K626-1893A) w/ loads.  They are beautiful and heavy.  Handed to me by Maury Klein himself.  Wish I had bought both 6-packs.

George

@harmonyards posted:

And that’s fine for a whimsical lap around an O27 layout at breakneck speeds, but anyone running a prototypical coal drag isn’t reaching for these slugs.

Pat

One or two of these diecast cars at the front end of a unit train isn’t a big drag. I don’t think anyone is advocating a whole unit train made up of them.

@Jim R. posted:

One or two of these diecast cars at the front end of a unit train isn’t a big drag. I don’t think anyone is advocating a whole unit train made up of them.

I can agree with that Jim, ….it’s just a shame, a full 20-30 car drag of these would be an impressive sight to see, but it’d be a gear stripper for sure!….

Pat

Two CNW diecast hoppers

@MainLine Steam posted:

Having designed gear trains back in my working days, calculations need to be done to assure in normal operation the gears will not strip.  If there is insufficient lubrication "then all bets are off".  If I was designing a toy train locomotive, I personally would design it so that the wheels would slip rather than the gears stripping out.  However the lubrication criteria always applies, and is beyond the design engineers "control".

Now to answer your question, every toy locomotive ever designed has it own set of calculations.  Many "identical" locomotives, really aren't.  The placement and/or lack of traction tires, material of the tires, etc. would affect it.  As would the gear ratio, gear material, motor used, etc. etc.  When you are playing with a toy train it looks pretty simple.  When you are designing it, not so much so.  So the answer is there is no "typical", especially with 3R where you have everything from cheaply made "O27 Toys" to High End Scale Model Locomotives.  BTW, so it doesn't get misinterpreted, there are some O27 Locomotives that are VERY well designed for the price.   

I would imagine that more weight per car creates more pulling friction and that makes the motor work harder. More power for the same constant speed. But that also has to put a greater load on the gear train. This is great feedback. What I'm learning is what should be obvious: pulling a bunch of die cast cars will look really cool but will also be taxing my engines. So . . . don't overdo it.

@Scott J posted:

I would imagine that more weight per car creates more pulling friction and that makes the motor work harder. More power for the same constant speed. But that also has to put a greater load on the gear train. This is great feedback. What I'm learning is what should be obvious: pulling a bunch of die cast cars will look really cool but will also be taxing my engines. So . . . don't overdo it.

Whether a car is diecast or not doesn’t matter. A 20-car train with one diecast car and a 22-car train without one would put the same strain on a locomotive.

Also, you’re overemphasizing one element: the weight of the cars. As Main Line Steam tried to point out, a lot more is involved.

My Premier hopper weighed in at 17 oz., and the K-Line at 32 oz.  from my earlier post.

@Jim R. posted:

One or two of these diecast cars at the front end of a unit train isn’t a big drag. I don’t think anyone is advocating a whole unit train made up of them.

I am!  And you'll see it soon!

@Gregcz1 posted:

I am!  And you'll see it soon!

As Tim Allen use to say on Home Improvement Sitcom during the Tool Time segments "More Power"!!