Lionel Big Boy or Mth?

I am very happy with the new Lionel, detail is great and sound unsurpassed

I cannot say how the sound is on MTH BB.

But on the lionel vision line BB the sounds are awesome as well as the engine itself. I own some MTH ps-2 steamers and diesels all sound anemic to me.

 as to purchasing a BB tarry not am sure the latest from lionel is getting scarce.

if you haven't been to lionels video of the BB watch that video I do believe you will make a choice right after that viewing.

remember you need 0-72 minimum curves and 3 1/2" from center rail to wall to clear and also a straight section at least 12" or more to clear anything close to end of the curve as I have a tunnel with a 10 7/8" straight track and the front boiler just barely comes up straight prior to it entering the tunnel bore!

hope this helps you decide.

Now if you are talking the newly catalog MTH Big Boy, it will represent 4014 as it will be rebuilt and will run in the future.  It will be an oil burner.  It will also have a quillable, variable intensity steaming (smoking whistle).  An when the 4014 is running MTH will record a new "sound" file of the engine so it model will sound as the running Big Boy.

Ron

I would get a MTH big boy because it has more detail then the Lionel Vision Line/JLC big boys. Any of the premier big boys from the 2004 and 2010 time frame are good but I like the ones from 2004-2006 more than I do the ones from 2010. Reason being the sound I like more on the older ones. 

I just watch Erictrains video, I am going to have to stop looking at this forum.  It's costing me too much.

I have order the big boy and the Leipzig Station this week.

I went for the MTH 4014....only 11 months left to pay it down

and I lost count of how many and which UP caboooses I bought

rat

ironically ratpak, I recently watched a video rails vcr tape of the big boy and on one scene it actually had a yellow caboose!

Were there any Road of The Big Boys boxcars, in the video

rat

beta or VHS?

My PS1.0 BB from the MTH Dealer Appreciation package of yore is jes' fine, thank you!    And, such a deal it was.

Less is more, IMHO of course. 

But TEHO.

Why would there not be yellow cabooses behind a Big Boy.  The order to paint the cabooses in yellow went out early/mid 1947.  The Big Boys survived into the late 50s.

I guess a bigger question is would there have been any "red" cabooses behind a Big Boy without exposed after-coolers.  Must edit this to not include 4020 through 4024.

Ron

Light hearted question...MTH and Weaver produced a string of UP box cars with Multiple Numbers marked as Road of The Big Boys.

rat

I think in another thread it was said that a brown caboose with a certain number was the correct caboose behind big boys.

not sure if possibly a certain style of caboose is what they meant. I just noticed in video it had a yellow caboose tacked on.

Based on my reference material all the red cabooses were most probably repainted yellow by 50/51.

As I edited my above post a bigger question would be was there any red cabooses behind a Big Boy that did NOT have exposed after-coolers(except 4020 through 4024).

Ron

Lionel has the market cornered on these big articulated steam engines.There must be a reason for it.Nick

I prefer this one:

http://www.3rdrail.com/found.htm

The Lionel BB is an awesome machine. Only a brand loyalist would buy any other.

That would be a yes, as the exposed after coolers where removed, starting in 1946, and the various UP cabooses were still "red/brown" through the late 1940s and into the early 1950s (with four digit road numbers).

Most hilarious post of the month, IMO.

Pete

ps - Or did I mean ironic?

To try and answer the OP's original question; it really depends on what era you desire to model. Lionel chose to go with the "as delivered in 1941" configuration with their Vision Line models. Thus, the Vision Line models of the UP 4000 class do not look like the 8 surviving 4000s in museums and parks around the U.S.

On the other hand, MTH chose to model their recently announced 4000 class models in the "in service 1946 through 1959" configuration, which also matches the appearance of the 8 locomotives saved in museums and parks.

Hope this helps a bit in your choice.

rboatertoo,

You must ask yourself if the disappearing coal load is worth the extra $500.

i picked up a new mikes premier bb/p2 about$1100 less. just gotta know where to look. it does everything i expect a  1/48 th scale loco to do.-jim

My buddy only runs MTH engines and he thinks MTH is the best thing since sliced bread. But after he seen and heard  the new Lionel Big Boy run he said MTH has some catching up to do! Now he wants to buy a Legacy system because he wants the new Lionel BB.

I do not run MTH , but I own MTH engines, Standard gauge engines, subway cars, and rolling stock!  I just do not like the sound.

Careful searching will find MTH BBs with protosounds in the $500 range.  Command versions bring more, of course.

If you just want a Big Boy and features aren't a factor, consider the original Lionel TMCC BB. Captures the essence of the BB though not the best detail.  These can also be found in the $5-700 range with careful searching.

JLC Legacy BBs are still commanding a healthy premium.  Nice detail though.  One of my favorites.

VL BB may be hard to find.  Getting to the point where dealers are selling out (a few have popped up for sale here).  If you want one, act quick.  Expect to pay a premium.  Those on the Bay are a joke, calling forum sponsors would be your best bet at a reasonable price above pre-order value.

There was a 3rd Rail BB listed on the forum, sold recently on the Bay.  Very reasonable.

Good luck, let us know what you choose.

Dumb Question...

Why can't they change the swivel point on the articulating locomotives to decrease the overhang? 072 curves and you still need almost 4 inches? 

not only that but they look terrible on 072 radius corners, just my opinion--Mark

While the MTH BB is a very nice unit, I'd go for the Vision Line Big Boy.  It has the best sound of any locomotive I've ever owned or even heard!  The detailing and operating features are top notch.  Of course, the smoke effects have been discussed at some length here.

Because then it wouldn't be prototypical.  These scale locomotives are trying to be as true to the real deal as possible.  The LionMaster and RailKing BBs do have the pivot in a different place to reduce overhang and allow tighter curves.

To the OP, guess it depends on which system you use.  I went to Lionel because it had the most features and worked with the system I use, TMCC.

No Big Boy Frenzy • On my layout. I like this LionMaster Challenger

4 - 6 - 6 - 4.

I purchased this engine new at my LHS. Great sounds, whistle, wireless tether, Odyssey and much more.

   Click photo to enlarge. 

First rogerpete asked:  

"Why can't they change the swivel point on the articulating locomotives to decrease the overhang? 072 curves and you still need almost 4 inches?" 

upmontman followed with:

"not only that but they look terrible on 072 radius corners, just my opinion--Mark"

Guys... They are B-I-G  B-O-Y-S what the heck were you expecting?

Jim I know I wouldn't pay $500.00 more for a depleting coal load. IMO, that just seems to be a waste of money. Don't get me wrong it's a great engine but in all honesty, the VL Big Boy is way over priced and out of my budget. 

Bought the 4014 Big Boy.

Here are the videos that convinced me, heard that sound and that did it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2ap0c6DWCM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ond7dnvD3Es

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgksZm1a-Ts

If you are going to do something, then, do it!

Tim, the depleting coal load is one of the lesser features for me.  The sound and great smoke features were high on the list as was the great detailing of the locomotive. 

SantaFejim, are you running this engine on 072 curves?

Nice looking loco Alex, but the sounds don't begin to match the VL-BB.  The smoke looks pretty lazy, usually MTH locomotives blast it out a bit more vigorously.

The Lionel VisionLine Big Boy was an engine I had planned to pass up as I have the JLC Legacy Big Boy. However, with all the discussions, videos and Talk about this new Feature Rich Locomotive, and a Dealer Offering a Fantastic Deal, I purchased one at the last minute. It Truly is an Amazing Locomotive, wheel slip mode, depleting coal, Smoke out the Whistle, Super Blow Down Effect, and on top of all of these features, It Smokes in Rhythm between Two Smoke Stacks, Like a Dragster on the Race Track. Couple all of this with a TWO YEAR WARRANTY, And Your Question is Answered. Have a Vision! Happy Railroading....

No, all my engines are Santa Fe and they never had any Big Boys.  In addition, I am very lucky, the layout that I run on has a minimun radius of 120".

There are 3-4 Big Boys in our club and they are smo-o-o-o-th on those curves.

BTW, our largest radius is 138" and they look awesome on those.

Model train stuff has 2 Big Boys listed on their website for 1999.00.

Mr. Muffins Trains in Indiana has BB 4014s for $1,959 and free shipping; I ordered mine from Steve, the owner (very patient and easy to talk to); showed up by FedEx 2 days later.  He mentioned that he had access to ~40 of them.

RickM46

I am for my small temporary layout and run at speed step 96; no issues.

RickM46

Rickm46, I know it works but I think it looks bad with all the overhang but hey what do I know?

Well, I am an MTH fan and likely always will be.  But I have started buying Legacy and Vision engines because of all the extra operating features over MTH.  I also find Legacy to be a more robust system and less prone to quirky behavior (although I do believe DCS is a more feature-rich platform).  On these two bases alone, there is a fun factor to be considered.

In any event, I own the VLBB and run it a lot. You wouldn't be "paying $500 for a depleting coal load."  You'd be paying this money for the following differences:

-a more detailed model in that it includes the front of the locomotive opening to reveal a detailed inside as well as tender front doors that open

-in addition to stack and whistle steam, blow-down effects

-a variable glow ash pan

-fat boy speakers with adjustable volume in both the locomotive and tender

-depleting coal load

-the wheel spin feature

- the LCS stuff (although not sure it matters if not running on Lionel Fasttrack)

-the shroud (and respective synched smoke chuff/puff feature when shroud is in-place)

-no shipping fees in either direction for warranty repairs

-a 2-year warranty

-and a warranty turn-around time that, in my experience, is far superior (measured in months, not weeks)

And, not that it matters, but the VLBB was to some extent a limited production piece that it would be reasonable to assume would better hold its value.  

Having said all that, it would be hard to actually compare given the MTH BB isn't yet available. 

Peter

Actually, you bring up a good point.  I am headed toward O82 for my layout - I want to keep the curves as gradual as possible for it and maybe decrease the over hang a bit.

RicKM46

Thank you PJB -- that comparison is helpful.

One other thing that would sway me is whether I lived in driving range of either Lionel or MTH.  More specifically, it seems like that given the frequency of repairs required on some of these new high-end locomotives, if I lived where I could drop off and pick up for service, that would be a persuasive reason for me to buy one over the other.

I've run mine at full speed on O72 on my floor loop and it took it just fine.  The train it was pulling stayed on the rails as well.  In fact I haven't had a single thing come off the track at full speed with O72, but then I haven't tried all of my stuff yet.

I ran mine on 0-138 and there's still overhang.  Though it looks much better than 0-72!

You should see the overhang on a real articulated steam locomotive, even a lowly Challenger, on a 10 degree curve, or even a 14 degree curve. 

Didn't "overhang" get exhausted on another thread a few weeks back?  I think my comment there was, in essence, that philosophically the model is engineered to do exactly what the real thing was designed to do, except that the model maximizes on the concept.  Just me, but I enjoy every aspect of this thing, including the well-engineered marvel of a boiler that smoothly swings in and out of position just like the real thing.

Seriously, if overhang is such an issue, I cringe to think what those concerned about overhang think about the third rail running all around their layouts! 

Peter   

You hit the nail squarely on the head, Peter!!!!!

As mentioned, previously, JLC Legacy BB is worth considering. As a model, it is nearly identical to the new VL BBs, has Legacy and the key Legacy features, and is decidedly easier to purchase (~ $700 less, YMMV). Its only potential drawback (depending on the expectations of the user) is that it has the incorrect whistle sound. The JLC BB gets one into the game nicely for a lot less.

Food for thought.

Bob

Overhang? Who cares really... We cant make everyone happy. (The overhang is bad ,I cant run it on a 4x8 sheet of plywood) blah blah blah ..(I want  lionel to make lionmaster engines so i can run my challenger on 0-27) Blah blah ... Go buy H.O. if you have a 4x8 layout.. So silly you have a 34 1/2 inch engine its fregin big...

Guys,

I didn't want to derail this thread on the overhang issue.  Not my intent.  It means different things for different folks.

And, yes, the overhang has been beat to death in many threads.

Back to topic for the OP: The JLC Legacy BB is a great locomotive.  Another one of my favorites in my UP fleet.  Glass smooth runner, great sound, and nice detail. 

You know this is your little world that you build  and you can run it any way that makes you happy and good for you---Mark

Gunrunnerjohn, I would have to agree with you that the sound and smoke features are really cool. Those are the only things I like about the VL Bigboy. 

PJB's post above seems to run counter to your assertion that the MTH models are more detailed than the new Lionel Big Boy.  What's more detailed on the MTH Big Boy as compared to the Lionel Vision Line model?

Anyone got comparison photos of MTH's scale version vs. the JLC or VLBBs?

AND FREE SHIPPING FOR REPAIRS WITHIN THAT 2 YEAR PERIOD!

Norm,

Earlier today I received notification from Lionel that my VL Big Boy will be returned (fixed, I hope) to me next Monday. As I had planned, I will post pictures of it next to the MTH 20-3414-1 Premier Big Boy.

Alex

I'm curious, was the Lionel warranty service for their premium products, say, a 700E, any different than for their lower end and more common stuff, like a 224?

Sounds good Alex. Maybe you can compare the boiler lengths as I always heard the MTH was too long. I never compared for myself and my interest in UP power has all but faded away. I still have a JLC Challenger and BB boxed up somewhere though...

Here's the two Lionel versions, compared.  

Though the thread deals with a different subject, there are lots of photos to show the details.

Will compare all 3 Lionel models when I have some time.

I'm not surprised that the original TMCC BB is off there 86. Did you ever measure length of the boiler to the end of the cab roof on the two? When the JLC was coming out, it was said that it would share nothing at all with that first one.

MTN - while I try to read every GRJ in a thread I read (usually very informative), in this case I don't believe I saw GRJ's post.  In any event, my post was intended only to point out broad stroke differences (the things mentioned - the boiler front opening door and the tender functional doors). It could be that MTH's release may have more rivets or tubes or other fine details - but won't know till issued.

Both Lionel and MTH Big Boys are nice models but both manufacturers got the back of the cab detailing wrong. Although not a vestibule cab, the Big Boys had two doors in the middle, on the back of the cab, not curtains. The cab was enclosed. Sunset Models didn't do it right either..........

you are correct Paul

My vote it to go with the VLBB for the three following reasons:

1. Sound

2. Sound

3. Sound

It is AWESOME!!

I went with the Lionel Big Boy. I got it today, but I have other work to do in the room and if I take it out.....  I'll never get the other stuff done!!!   But after reading all of the posts, I know I made the right decision.  I was stuck in the postwar world.  Now my life will never be the same!!!!   It all start with the Monon Passenger set.  I have to stop listening to the NOTCH 6 podcast.  He review both engines and I was hooked. I am afraid to listen on Monday....  Maybe my credit card company will raise my limit.....

You will not regret it!

I got mine last Thursday and have been learning its characteristics ever since - so many and so awesome.

It took awhile for me to read the manual.

But, it is only the beginning.

I wound up getting the 990 Legacy Controller, then the ZW-L transformer.

Took awhile to read their manuals too.

Hopefully, you know you need a minimum of O72 track.

RickM46

And now it starts.

Well, yes and no. The UP "all weather cab" design had a pair of fold-away doors assemblies across the entire back wall of the cab. All "Big Three" locomotive models had this arrangement, i.e. the FEF-2 & FEF-3 4-8-4s, the 3900 class 4-6-6-4s, and the 4000 class 4-8-8-4s. Surprisingly the UP did have some 4900s and 4000s equipped with cab curtains, although photos of them are hard to find. The cab curtains would only have been used in more warmer weather, when the back door arrangement was folded-away, and fully open. 

In preparation for the colder months, the shop force would unfold the rear door arrangement, and then install steam coils on the center, fixed portion of the back wall. There were two doors, one on the Engineer's side and one on the Fireman's side of the back wall for entering and exiting the cab.

As a side note, Lionel did a pretty good job of modeling the "closed-up" rear of the cab, on their model of FEF-3 #844.

Here's a shot of the BB with enclosed cab.

Notice the third big red dial. Also, past MTH BB tenders have a different marker and backup light arrangement then the Lionel VL BB tender. 

Also, I notice the new VL BB at idle does not have that familiar loud thumping boiler sound I hear on most other Legacy steams. Anyone know if that is prototypical to the BB or Lionel simply did not include that sound? 

Joe 

Somewhat off topic:  But as Hot Water started mentioning the cab curtain/enclosure history of the Big Boys in detail, it reminded me of my visit to the 4005 in Denver a few years ago.  If anyone finds themselves in Denver for whatever reason, the museum is worth a visit.  It's a close cab ride to the Airport and also has lots of cars and motorcycles on display.

What's somewhat unique about the 4005 (unfortunately) is that it was involved in a tragic accident as a repair crew working on a switch off the UP Main didn't get it closed in time.  The 4005 hit it at speed....and both the fireman and engineer were killed as the Big Boy went tumbling off the track.  You can still see signs of the damage and its subsequent repair in the cab.

The museum also has a display of tools used to work on and maintain the BB.  For a civilian like me used to working on cars, these tools/wrenches are HUGE and have to be seen to be believed.

There is a simple fix for that, AF big boys used the same chip with the correct sound. But side by side the new big boy blows away the sound of the older one

Not to derail the topic, but I never understood why O Gauge manufacturers (with the exception of 3rd Rail I believe) do not include the third red ash-pan valve wheel on the Big Boy.  

Back on topic, my vote is for the VL Big Boy.  Superior sound and better details. 

Here's a few shots taken awhile back. Hard to see but the MTH BB is about two inches longer then the JLC with is exactly the same as the VL BB. I long ago sold the MTH BB but if I recall, it had the enclosed cab.

Also, notice the marker and backup light are different.

Have no idea which one is correct.

Joe

The overall length of the prototype BB is 132 ft 9 ¹⁄₄ in, which translates to 33.19" at 1:48 scale. 

The MTH rendition of the markers appears more correct, at least for 4004.  However, there's this picture of 4501...

Yes, checking the books, the rear of the MTH tender is "more correct". 

Now, what is the picture of 4501 all about?

Above the running boards, there appears to be more cast in detail on the MTH unit while Lionel's appears to be smoother....either on purpose or b/c they didn't add the extra detail.

So, the question becomes, who is more correct?

What are the actual dimensions of the Lionel and MTH models?

The "who is more correct?" question can really only be answered by the question of exactly what era/time frame the model is patterned after. The Vision Line model is supposed to be "as delivered" while the MTH model/models vary from "as delivered" to "in service post 1950".

Beats me, I just found it on Google.

I hold no prejudices and always buy from those providing the absolute most value for the least amount of money. If I were to buy a Big Boy ( don't have the layout curves and run exclusively Eastern routes) I would lean towards the MTH with its higher detail, equal features and competitive price. If operation is the issue; MTH is controlled remotely much the same as Lionel and they run on TMCC and Legacy.

Just curious, how do you figure the MTH has "equal features"?

yeah, Really Dennis? not even close on features and detail is superb

MTH BB Cab #4004, Part #20-3228-1E Photos

Here is my MTH BB. I have had it for a couple of years, I got it from ebay for less than a $1000. I am happy with it and I think it is a great loco.

I will be receiving my Lionel VL BB in a few days. If I have time, I will post some pictures of both of them side by side.

I think each rendition has its own merits and the best thing to do to settle who's better, for me anyway, is to get one from each manufacturer I know it is a lot of money, but I sold all of my HO collection to get into O scale, and so far no regrets.

Not to mention "MTH is controlled remotely much the same as Lionel and they run on TMCC and Legacy"

Chris, I was going to let that one pass if I got a satisfactory answer to my query.

A few more pictures for your discretion

Thanks Joe for posting that photo. Overall length is a bit meaningless though, as tender spacing can affect it quite a bit. I also noticed that pilot spacing on articulateds can vary depending on who made the model. I think the critical measurement here is the actual boiler length but I have yet to see it posted.

Not so sure that's a viable option. According to the Lionel parts breakdown on the AFBB, the part is $55 and you have to chase Lionel to (maybe) get it from them:

http://www.lionel.com/Customer...c1-80ef-d468105d1d76

If there's one thing that makes me want to cut loose my JLCBB, it's the weak and incorrect whistle sound.

Guess after seeing the MTH version with the correct enclosed cab I'm slightly let down (not ready to shed my VLBB though).  Why the heck does Lionel use (incorrect) curtains?  For the MSRP it should at least have been accurate on basic aspects like this.  Seems like MTH also has 3 crew members in the cab over the 2 in the VLBB and JLC, etc.  

Peter