Lionel or MTH railking

Rail King starter sets are arguably the best value in O gauge model railroading, especially of one is into command control.

Must Agree with Barry.

Railking engines including those in starter sets have Command control in them.

And now many of them contain a limited Remote control for DCS operation.

Lionel starter sets in the current catalog do not offer anything other than transformer control.

Well, there is the LionChief remote, but I still think that the full command capability of the RailKing sets is clearly the best value.  I wish Lionel would wake up to the fact that it wouldn't cost that much to sell the full command capability in the sets...

I have to agree with all of the above. The Railking sets are the best value in the hobby.

Depends.

For a family that just wants an around the tree or similar layout, you can buy two Lionel low end sets for the price of one MTH set in many instances.  And if these are two Lionchief sets, you can control two locomotives independently on a layout of any size, even a large oval.  If you have two or more kids (or big kids) that might be a factor.  You cannot operate two Railking locos independently unless you spring for DCS, which adds a few hundred to the upfront cost.    If you only want one set, the lower initial cost of an inexpensive Lionel set allows that any extra money could go for additional rolling stock, track, turnouts or accessories if you don't foresee getting into command control soon or in a big way.

If you're sure you going to go into command, and are OK with the additional upfront costs,  the arguments for the Railking set made above are persuasive, but there are potentially other viewpoints than those of the committed, long term hobbyist. 

Two very different philosophies of how to appeal to novices in the hobby.

I have bought both over the years, and agree that MTH Railking sets are the better value. I especially like their steam engines. It's hard to beat the smoke, sounds and command control that you get for just a few dollars more than a conventional set.  In addition, I think the rolling stock is of better quality.  I have multiple scale and semi scale engines from Lionel and MTH, and one of my favorites to run is from a Railking starter set. 

I agree with all the posters here who regard the MTH starter sets as a great value.  Lionel does have less expensive starter sets available buy if you can afford the step up to an MTH starter set it is more than worth the extra money.

Let me share what I did yesterday afternoon as an example of the value of an MTH starter set with a PS-2 or PS-3 locomotive.  I met my brother Dave at the Northwest Trunk Lines layout to see Bear Owens and his family and help give them a tour of the layout.  The layout's owner, Peter Hambling, got into three rail O after buying his youngest son MTH Railking trains for Christmas.  Peter doesn't just have command control on the layout he has full layout automation with a PC running the layout through DCS.  All track power comes from the same Z-1000 bricks found in many MTH starter sets.  And the Railking 0-8-0 steam locomotive still performs yeoman service on the layout.

The guy in the photo with the big grin is Peter running the first train on the completed mainline on the Northwest Trunk Lines.  The locomotive is his sons Railking 0-8-0. 

If you like, you can read more about the Northwest Trunk Lines and the Railking 0-8-0 that started it all.

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/t...the-voyage-continues

Everyone I forgot. pretty soon my Grandfather Donald [ I call him Papaw Don] will give me his O modern Lionel train set. it is the 6-30070 classic freight set. and my Papaw Marty already has an MTH train set with a Z controller [no DCS included, what a shame!].

No comparison, MTH produces the best bang for your buck for starter sets. If you are looking for strictly a conventional starter set check out Williams train sets. Much better quality than Lionel's conventional sets.

Once again, depends on what you consider a "bang."  Lionel sets are about half the cost of an MTH set.  Not everyone needs the features or wants the attendant expense of the command control electronics, etc. provided by MTH.  As for Williams, try finding a Williams set with remote control and sound for $150, as you can for Lionel.  Try finding a Williams set at all in most areas of the country. 

In summary, Lionel makes a very affordable, good quality set that has as much play value as any set made when you consider the LionChief remote control features.  Other manufacturers offer different features at higher price points.  Some will value them enough to go for the extra cost, others not.

Don't know if Lionel is still doing this, but has done so in the past(about 12 years ago) with starter sets. They make one operates on D.C. only! If you happen to run the engine with an A.C. transformer you can fry it's electronics.

I would go with MTH starter set, except I am not a fan of MTH Scaletrax or Realtrax. I prefer the older tubular track over roadbed equipped track, just works better.

While Williams sells a quality product, there might be a couple of draw backs. The Williams sets use Atlas Industrial Rail track, different then regular tubular track, with their sets, and an Atlas 80 watt transformer. Also find out if the set has track & transformer as Williams sells some sets without track & transformer.

Lee Fritz

One of the best operating aspects of MTH's starter sets, for me, is 'speed control' (I believe this is 'auto on' even in conventional operation).

I don't know that MTH offers any O gauge engines (in sets or individually) without it.  Speed control is one of the best unsung features IMO.

I love my Williams engines (none of which have been modified to run in series or with thermistors/resistors...yet), but they have less interactive value as they come standardly equipped, again for me.  I tend to run them at set speeds with little throttle interaction, because they're less responsive without this feature or modification.  (Note: I know some of this is due to gearing, as the WBB Ten Wheeler is much smoother out of the box).

Still there is nothing like 'speed control' for those small incremental changes in scale mph, stop on a dime, switching directions back & forth (coupling/uncoupling) and slow operation around the track.

Robert

I'm certainly with you on that!  In my opinion, speed control is the best feature offered in any locomotive.  Having a smallish layout, and preferring to be able to conduct switching operations on a fairly regular basis, I value it over any of the other features.

Unless that MTH set is one of the PS1 or Loco Sounds engines, you can get the commonly Command Control capabilities for $50.  Get the DCS Remote Commander set. 

Yes, It's IR so bright sunlight will bother it. BUT you get scale speed control, remote Bell, Whistle, and uncoupling, Volume control, and you can trigger the Freight or Passenger sound sequence. You also have Start up and Shut down sequences.

That's what really hooked me on MTH. My layout is growing but started at less than 4 x 6. It's mostly lots of switches and spurs and uncoupling sections so speed control is a must. I have some Williams that I run but have rewired them all for series. My only Lionel is the Polar Express Berkshire that I started last ****. Nothing against Lionel but in my haste to get into the hobby I made a lot of uninformed purchases of Lionel engines on eBay that turned out really badly. I would like to try again but the higher end Lionels look to be about $100 more than equivalent MTH.

Another vote for RailKing starter sets. It's a no brainer best bang for the buck. Has Lionel ceded this niche to MTH or is it that "they simply don't get it?" Puzzling either way - afterall in this economy how can any company that wants sustained growth be so oblivious to any market segment? 

"how can any company that wants sustained growth be so oblivious to any market segment? "

Perhaps they've concluded that the market for $250-$400 starter sets is relatively small compared with the market for $150-250 sets?

I've concluded that the audience here is not the target audience for the LionChief sets, which is why we have trouble understanding it.  I know I'm not planning a purchase of one of these, and I suspect most folks here are of the same mind.

I agree with you gunrunnerjohn.

The high cost of most toy trains and associated equipment puts it in a classification out of reach of today's young parents with their "relatively lower wages." It's those folks who are apparently the targeted audience for LionChief and other RTR starter sets rather than the train companies "bread and butter" customers who sustain their viability and frequent this forum - a group economically elite compared to the general populace in our country today. Just viewing the profiles of members of this forum gives credence to that assertion by noting their occupations with many being college educated (which for the beginning of the baby boomer generation was not as prevalent then as it presently is for today's generation.)

Unfortunately though, despite the greatest number of post high school educated members, today's generation will never have the disposable income that my baby boomer generation enjoys and will be the first generation in our country's history that will not be as financially "well off" as their parents' baby boomer generation was.

I don't intend to be a purveyor of doom and gloom for our hobby but a situation like this does not bode well for the future of modeling railroading even if more of today's kids did want to someday get involved with our model/toy train hobby.

Actually, I think you're probably right about that.  Think about it:  We have become a service society, and that doesn't bode particularly well.  To top it off, many of today's college grads are saddled with the kind of debt we older folks never even imagined, and that's before they even land their first "decent" job.  Rough times ahead for the nation's young, I'm afraid.  And hobbies, let alone leisure time, will be the least of their worries.

I have found that MTH engines are far superior to Lionel, comparing like to like.  But, when it comes to rolling stock, Lionel certainly holds its own.  MTH cars are larger scale. While MTH RailKing is between semi-scale and scale, they do not have the detail that Lionel semi-scale cars have.  MTH scale, or premier, cars have it all, but for toy trains, I prefer MTH engines and Lionel rolling stock for the detail.  I am not into O-scale, but if I were, I'd go for the MTH premier (I have some).

Well...I'm gonna go with the polar express from lionel

It all depends on what your goals are.  I have been trying to amass track, scenery, decent transformers for multiple train operations and will continue to do so for the future layouts I plan to build.  With that in mind DCS was really is the only option as the cost is more reasonable.  I picked up a used TIU and remot for a fraction of the cost of new.  I picked up a PS2 passenger train used very inexpensively.  I love Lionel, but I'll never amass what I need going that route.  

I have run conventionally for too long before my TIU purchase, the kids love the remote and even though I like building and creating layouts I have just as much fun turning the control over to the kids and sitting back and watching.

if there was an equally affordable way to do what I did with Lionel I would have done it.

If you are buying the set for you, then by all means go for the polar express.   If you are buying it for a child who likes trains beyond the scope of Christmas I would ask a child themself if possible.

When my son, now 11, was younger I would have his classmates over periodically to run trains on my old layout.   Invariably, they all much rather would use the remote to control the trains and accessories.  The transformer controlled loop pretty much went untouched.

Also, to a kid, they much preferred the MTH remote over the old Lionel remote as the major control buttons are color coded.  Ie: press yellow for xxx, green for xxx, white for xxx, etc.

--Greg

There's nothing wrong with Lionel sets. This sure is a one sided thread and forum.

Jim

How is that?  Because others don't have the same opinion?  I don't think anyone's bashing Lionel, just stating the opinion that of the starter sets, MTH seems to offer more value, especially to folks that are into command operation.  I have lots of Lionel stuff, and I think the Legacy stuff is great, wish I had more.  All things being equal, I'd buy a Lionel Legacy locomotive over an MTH PS2/3 one as a rule.  All things are rarely equal...

Don't think it is a target audience for starter sets in general. Most here seem to be into much higher end products. Having said that though I would have to agree that dollar for dollar MTH sets are a much superior product and with sound and command control are worth every penny.

Just make sure you buy one from the LHS if you ever need service. As pointed out in another thread if you buy it on line even from and authorized MTH dealer you could be faced with paying a charge should there be a need to be serviced even if under warranty.

I'm not sure how you can make that assertion.  Although I'm not one to support "X vs. Y" discussions, the person who initiated the thread asked a question and people here seem to be responding based on their personal experiences and opinions.  I'm not sure what else you would expect them to do.

I like to think of it in terms of different features and processes common to each supplier. Thank goodness for the variety too! That and the scale "flexibility" offered in features, livery, size have made this hobby I've been able to stick with and stay passionate about.

Not so much Jim, But there does seem to be a leaning on Starter Sets.

Also, few of us look at it from a blank canvas perspective.

The Lionchief plus sets will appeal to the newcomers, too bad they are incompatible even with Legacy. Thus they have a very poor  upgrade path (Buy a new Engine).

Lionel has the most Awesome Big Boy ever now.

Too bad it's so far out of my price range.

How many MTH PS-2 or PS-3 sets do you have Jim?  If none, do you have any significant, practical experience with any? 

I have a hunch you have none so therefore you cannot draw any comparisons from them against Lionel sets, or any other name brand set for that matter.

Having my RTR MTH set has been a blessing in disguise.  I have learned a little bit about DCS, and I have really enjoyed the niche market that I am into.  I also have the Lionel LIRR M7 set.  I truly really think both sets are amazing.  I must admit though I think the attention to detail on the MTH Railking diesel is second to none.  I am only looking for a certain type of Rolling stock which would be intermodal.  There is something that I like about MTH over Lionel that I can't put my finger on!

When you look at the comparison of sets.  MTH gives you a Command Control engine with full features.  Most equivalent Lionel set are about $30-70 less, but it is a conventional engine with Train Sounds and piston type smoke if it has smoke.

Normally the Lionel sets have more rolling stock included and many prefer the Fast Track over MTH track.  But lack of smoke or poor smoke, and weakness of Train Sounds over Proto Sounds and Synchronized smoke with remote couplers give the MTH sets far more value than the Lionel sets.  G

I've observed that Lionel and MTH both get praised and criticized with pretty much equal fervor on this forum. 

Rusty

Rusty

I am aware that the new engines have no battery. But I can still run every other brand with a TMCC or Legacy.

The forums seem to lean to MTH to me as well, but I don't care which way it leans because it's so full of good people and information.  And I have lots of MTH items, but they are PS-1.

As for me, it's 4-0 Lionel to MTH RTR sets for me.  Why, becasue my 1st RTR set was teh 0-6-0 logger dockside set from Lionel as I found it for less than $200USD and it fit into my under the bed layout plans I had.  Then my son wanted a bullet train, and the only one I could find that fit his image of one was the Lionel HHP-8 set.  He loves it, and now I had 2 CW-80 transformers and they are part of the layout, and the kids around me love using them.  Then I found out that MTH's command locomotives don't work with them so I have kept to the Lionel RTR sets.  My local MTH dealer will swap out FasTrack for the MTH track at no charge, but I can't swap out the Lionel single unit transformer for the large two part MTH transformer on our small layout, nor can you mount the MTH items to the board like you can a CW-80.

Maybe once I get around to building a large layout with CW-180s as the power we might get some MTH RTR sets, but for now it's Lionel for us.

I only own orange and blue and have only bought one RTR set, the Polar Express. For me the MTH sets appear to be more bang for the buck.

Irrelevant to the original discussion.  All of Lionel's starter sets, including the latest "LionChief" series, aren't TMCC/Legacy equipped, just like MTH sets are not.

So comparing a Lionel starter set with an MTH PS2 or PS3 starter set is essentially the same if you have a TMCC/Legacy-only environment, as you can only run both in conventional mode with a Powermaster or a TPC, or you have to gut & replace their existing electronics to TMCC.  In the case of LionChief, you have the additional option of running it on a TMCC layout's fixed voltage using its own remote but it's still not a TMCC-equipped engine since the CAB-1 or CAB-2 can't control the engines.

John 

Ad Hominem Tu Quoque

Interesting. Has this always been your signature?