Thank you Mike for all the great offerings since the inception of MTH. Seeing the sheer variety of what has become available to us over the years has been tremendous fun.
Guess M.T.H. now stands for Movin' To Hialeah. 
To me there are two big moving parts about the possible/probable demise of MTH.
1 Maintenance - People are concerned about getting their existing locomotives fixed, upgraded, and generally keeping up with new technology and control/power sources.
2 New Products- New locomotives, various rolling stock, and possible accessories.
Since I have no MTH locomotives or MTH control systems; I don't care about the Maintenance issue.
I would like to see someone continue to produce New Products ( MTH) no matter who it is. So far from my understanding Mike has not been able to find a buyer. I'm not sure who owns the equipment in China anyway?? But here is an idea. If worst comes to worst, give Lionel the existing equipment in China. Lionel will pick up the equipment and ship it the their manufacturing division also in China. Lionel and Mike sign a 10 year operating agreement giving Mike a royalty of each MTH product produced by Lionel over the next 10 years. After the 10 years all equipment is the property of Lionel and all royalties stop. I would rather a new company compete against Lionel, competition is best. This is a worst case scenario I proposed. I know the devil is in the details - this is just a broad stroke the the brush a starting point for negotiation. Bottom line is ........I don't want to see the MTH production equipment sent to the scrap yard and melted down. Hopefully a new independent company will emerge.
How much more speculation do we need. For the customers and dealers that were exclusively MTH they will simply have to readjust if they want to stay with Ogauge. I feel bad but it is what it is. Mike wants to retire and could not find a buyer so it’s his decision to close up shop. We survived after Kline and Weaver. We will survive after this.
Note....in order to keep on topic, we are now going to delete comments that are off topic of the original purpose of this thread. This topic should be about MTH in particular and any comments you want to convey concerning them specifically and Mike Wolf in particular.
@Greg - Mi posted:To me there are two big moving parts about the possible/probable demise of MTH.
1 Maintenance - People are concerned about getting their existing locomotives fixed, upgraded, and generally keeping up with new technology and control/power sources.
2 New Products- New locomotives, various rolling stock, and possible accessories.
Since I have no MTH locomotives or MTH control systems; I don't care about the Maintenance issue.
I would like to see someone continue to produce New Products ( MTH) no matter who it is. So far from my understanding Mike has not been able to find a buyer. I'm not sure who owns the equipment in China anyway?? But here is an idea. If worst comes to worst, give Lionel the existing equipment in China. Lionel will pick up the equipment and ship it the their manufacturing division also in China. Lionel and Mike sign a 10 year operating agreement giving Mike a royalty of each MTH product produced by Lionel over the next 10 years. After the 10 years all equipment is the property of Lionel and all royalties stop. I would rather a new company compete against Lionel, competition is best. This is a worst case scenario I proposed. I know the devil is in the details - this is just a broad stroke the the brush a starting point for negotiation. Bottom line is ........I don't want to see the MTH production equipment sent to the scrap yard and melted down. Hopefully a new independent company will emerge.
I doubt Lionel would want to do that. If they did you most likely would see a major price increase.
I stumbled onto this news early this morning while browsing YouTube. Grandson was playing a video game and I got bored.
After he went home I decided to see if this news had hit the O gauge forum so I could read what people had to say. 17 pages. Good to know.
I have read as many posts as I could to get a feel for what the main concern happened to be, and since most were wishing Mike a healthy and happy retirement, and I too wish that for him, let me first start by adding my best wishes to he and his family. Next let me say that I too am disappointed to see MTH close. Why? No reason. I bought two Lionel ES44's only to find out that Legacy wasn't able to run MTH engines when in between the two Lionel's I bought a BNSF ES44 from MTH. Knowing this I decided to go with DCS because MTH programming, with assistance, was able to run Lionel Engines. I had it all figured out.
I don't fault Mike in the least for his decision to retire. I don't fault anyone else for not wanting to buy MTH. As many of the posts have stated in one way or another, model trains aren't drones or video games or virtual reality face masks. Today's generation wants a drone they can fly, or a video game they can power play with their friends over the net, like these zombie special ops ghost warrior games, or, it still isn't as popular but we can all hope, VR glasses that let them actually drive a VR train on a VR track running into all sorts of VR excitement. As Ravi (sorry if I messed that up), mentioned in his post, Alexa type interaction with our smart devices is what drives the industry today. WIFI DCS is great, racked with nit picky issues, but great to use. I love running my trains with it. But if MTH is closing, let's face the facts, upgrades go away, support goes away, and chances are, usually happens, unless MTH bands together to save their jobs and gets Mike to sell all of them the company, whoever does buy it will only buy bits and pieces and CHANGES abound.
I'm with all of the posts that followed this line of thought. Come June 1 2021 we will be fully educated as to what lies ahead for MTH, its employees, its products, and its future err it have one. We may see no changes, other than the Mike portion of the name either being left there in spirit only, or gone and changed to one of the other 25 letters in the alphabet. Then again we may see MTH become yet another historical figure in the model train industry that we speak of this way, "that's an old MTH product, they left the industry years ago." But until June 1 2021 I will continue to enjoy my trains as I do now, no changes, but I will try to be even more particular about them since I may not have any place go to get them repaired. Maybe a version of Rock Auto.com will appear in our midst selling hard to find parts for model trains. But for now, my DCS works, my WIFI app works. My trains belong to me and if my train room becomes inoperable museum piece in the future, then I'll deal with it then. With that I will say Mike, best wishes, happy retirement, thanks for the opportunity, and I'm hungry.
John
Here's another thought. I discovered S scale and was adding a loop to my layout. I started with SHS track and then moved to MTH STrax. Around Christmas, 2019, it seemed there was enough product. However, now six months later, I cannot find any 35-1001 15 inch straight track. Track is basic, because more track invites more trains. One may conclude Mike exhausted track inventory in late 2019 and then stopped, in anticipation of closing. I can work around depleted inventory, if needed, but I feel abandoned.
Mark
Now that the responses are slowing down a little I thought I'd chime in.
This announcement saddens me, the same way I felt when the Beatles broke up, but life went on as will this hobby.
Thanks Mike Wolf for your contri utions to this hobby, you have left a great legacy that all of us can appreciate. Every piece of MTH that I have owned has brought hours of enjoyment for myself and others and you can't put a price on that.
I will continue to support MTH for years to come since I find them so reliable and entertaining. I still play with my NKP Berk that I bought 25 years ago its bullet proof as are all of my MTH products.
Again Mike thanks for the memories and enjoy your retirement from the toy train business.
@barrister.2u posted:Here's another thought. I discovered S scale and was adding a loop to my layout. I started with SHS track and then moved to MTH STrax. Around Christmas, 2019, it seemed there was enough product. However, now six months later, I cannot find any 35-1001 15 inch straight track. Track is basic, because more track invites more trains. One may conclude Mike exhausted track inventory in late 2019 and then stopped, in anticipation of closing. I can work around depleted inventory, if needed, but I feel abandoned.
Mark
I know the feeling. MTH closing down is a much bigger gut punch to the S market than it is to the O market. And given the difficulty S-Helper Service had in selling the line to MTH, I suspect it will be no more.
You can use Lionel's S FasTrack with MTH/SHS S-Trax. FasTrack may not be quite as "pretty" as S-Trax and takes a little modification to join to S-Trax, but it will work. Rail height and roadbed profile is exactly the same.
https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...g-fastrack-to-s-trax
Lionel may not have a 15" section, but they do have a 30" length.
Rusty
@Rusty Traque posted:I know the feeling. MTH closing down is a much bigger gut punch to the S market than it is to the O market. And given the difficulty S-Helper Service had in selling the line to MTH, I suspect it will be no more.
<snip>
Rusty
There is a possibility that Lionel could pick up the SHS tooling. There were some discussions between Lionel and Don Thompson before the sale of SHS, but in the end it went to MTH for a reason that can be readily fathomed. Given that Lionel has American Flyer and has been offering S gauge trains since 1979, Lionel was always the more 'logical' place for the SHS line to reside under the AF banner.
No promises. Just sayin'.
Bob
@Bob Bubeck posted:There is a possibility that Lionel could pick up the SHS tooling. There were some discussions between Lionel and Don Thompson before the sale of SHS, but in the end it went to MTH for a reason that can be readily fathomed. Given that Lionel has American Flyer and has been offering S gauge trains since 1979, Lionel was always the more 'logical' place for the SHS line to reside under the AF banner.
No promises. Just sayin'.
Bob
According to Don, Lionel was never really in the running.
Rusty is correct, this is a gut punch to S. Add to the fact that we lost the owner of Des Plaines hobbies recently, the owners of American Models, and Port Lines Hobbies are both in their 70s with no succession plans that I’m aware of and the future for S gets really grim with MTHs departure.
Ive been trying to make S work personally for about 9 years and it is time to face reality. It’s not about being optimistic or pessimistic, it’s about being realistic. As much as I love S, I’m going back to 2R O and I’m supporting Scott Mann to get as much built as I can over the next 10 years. After that I question if there will be enough interest to continue. We shall see.
Well fellow S-guage fans, I must regard this announcement as a slap in the face!! When SHS was purchased by MTH, I was cautiously optimistic that good things were about to happen for the S-guage community! Sadly, that has Not been the case. We were promised a new set of Diesel engines and possibly some new steamers.. What came of it was more and more promising! Deadlines came and went finally a series of reworked(?) F3s with 3 modes of operation on board including the MTH flagship DCS! No complaints there except the cost of an ABA set of F3s together with all the DCS options was cost prohibitive for most of us Old AF and SHS fans who already had the F7s!! And rumors abounded, even more promising of a Steam Engine, most likely the 0-8-0! We all know that won't happen now! ...Has any one tried to find new S-trax switches lately?? I read an earlier post of someone looking for track... As for Lionel picking up the slack, have you looked at their "Catalogue" lately!! Mostly, near entry level toys since the releases of the Challenger, Mallet, SDs and U33s!! Yes, a new detailed 2-8-4 possibility coming out soon, then what? Yes, they are producing S-guage track and switches, which without modification will not integrate with SHS/MTH, and $$$.... So now we are solely dependent on Lionel, and American Models for new equipment. No disrespect to AM, their line of engines and rolling stock is for far superior in quality to any of Lionel's latest issues in my opinion!! But, no operating system other then Conventional Control... So, I wish Mike all the luck in the world for a Happy and Long retirement, but I do wish he had fulfilled more of his promises and his commitment to, and not left the S-guage community out in the cold!!! A Very Sad Way for SHS to come to an End!!!! 😢
Ps - this is my opinion, I sincerely apologize to anyone who disagrees or feels insulted!!
FWIW, I kept my pre-order for the MTH S Burlington F7's and N&W fishbelly hoppers, (paid for with the disposition of the remainder of my MTH O with change leftover) even though I'm not sure exactly what I'm going to do when I get around to building a new layout. Probably at least a year away.
I may switch scales, I may not. It's all mind games right now until after I relocate. At least these thoughts are cheap! 
Rusty
Just wondering why, over the years, when MTH was at the top of its game, that Mike didn't take the company public. I would have bought a block of shares, as I suspect many thousands of us enthusiasts would have. In that event, Mike would have been appointed CEO or President of the BOD, and the company would still be rolling along, after he steps down. He gets to sell off his shares (if he would so desire) live off a pension, (richly deserved) and a new guy would take over a viable company. That company would continue making products as long as there is a market.
@Arthur P. Bloom posted:Just wondering why, over the years, when MTH was at the top of its game, that Mike didn't take the company public. ......
Maybe he liked to be able to pursue what he wanted and to have the final say? Some of that disappears when you go public and have to answer to others (stockholders, board of directors, etc).
Who knows what product may have been made because he had the passion to do it and maybe didn't always have a huge bottom line profit? I'm not suggesting he did lots of things to lose money on, but he could do as he pleased. There is a chance that may have been worth a lot to him.
-Dave
@Arthur P. Bloom posted:Just wondering why, over the years, when MTH was at the top of its game, that Mike didn't take the company public. I would have bought a block of shares, as I suspect many thousands of us enthusiasts would have. In that event, Mike would have been appointed CEO or President of the BOD, and the company would still be rolling along, after he steps down. He gets to sell off his shares (if he would so desire) live off a pension, (richly deserved) and a new guy would take over a viable company. That company would continue making products as long as there is a market.
Sure, there are advantages for going public, but there are disadvantages, too.
When you go public, you surrender control. There's financial disclosures to the investors, being regulated by the SEC and the high costs of complying with SEC regulations for a small company, other costs involved for an IPO and the pressure for quick profits.
I know I wouldn't buy stock in a model railroad company, no matter who it is.
Rusty
@jonnyspeed posted:According to Don, Lionel was never really in the running.
Rusty is correct, this is a gut punch to S. Add to the fact that we lost the owner of Des Plaines hobbies recently, the owners of American Models, and Port Lines Hobbies are both in their 70s with no succession plans that I’m aware of and the future for S gets really grim with MTHs departure.
<snip>
Well, because in the end Mike offered more money. There were discussions.
Given how the acquisition and the fruits of it played out, Lionel's management's judgement of the commercial value of the line, given the current market, was arguably closer the truth of the matter. Agreed that the demise of M.T.H. is a loss for S. Not denying that, but because M.T.H.'s tardy and incomplete roll out of product was so painfully slow, one can honestly debate just how big a loss it is. I do not know if Lionel would be interested in acquiring the line, but then and now, it has been a ('the' IMHO) logical place for the old SHS tooling to reside as part of the American Flyer brand with its name recognition if one wishes to see any of those pieces manufactured in some form again.
Again, no promises. Just sayin'.
Bob
>> Love those old AF Trains... 
<<
Me, too!
Bob
@Bob Bubeck posted:Well, because in the end Mike offered more money. There were discussions.
Given how the acquisition and the fruits of it played out, Lionel's management's judgement of the commercial value of the line, given the current market, was arguably closer the truth of the matter. Agreed that the demise of M.T.H. is a loss for S. Not denying that, but because M.T.H.'s tardy and incomplete roll out of product was so painfully slow, one can honestly debate just how big a loss it is. I do not know if Lionel would be interested in acquiring the line, but then and now, it has been a ('the' IMHO) logical place for the old SHS tooling to reside as part of the American Flyer brand with its name recognition if one wishes to see any of those pieces manufactured in some form again.
Again, no promises. Just sayin'.
Bob
I've been peeking into a couple of the Flyer discussion groups. Crickets about MTH closing down. I suppose your statement about how much of a big loss to S is true.
I agree that American Flyer carries the identity of S, (something certain factions on the scale side refuse to admit...) but can you imagine Showcase Line cars with those big, honkin' Flyer trucks?
Yikes!!!
Besides, the boys over at Circle L just went through a lot of trouble designing a "traditional" copy of the MTH/SHS wood reefer.
And without some serious redesign work, I doubt Lionel's current electronics would even fit in the ex-MTH/SHS F-units and forget about the switchers.
Rusty
@Rusty Traque posted:I've been peeking into a couple of the Flyer discussion groups. Crickets about MTH closing down. I suppose your statement about how much of a big loss to S is true.
I agree that American Flyer carries the identity of S, (something certain factions on the scale side refuse to admit...) but can you imagine Showcase Line cars with those big, honkin' Flyer trucks?
And without some serious redesign work, I doubt Lionel's current electronics would even fit in the ex-MTH/SHS F-units and forget about the switchers.
Rusty
One can imagine (since we are wildly speculating) that the SHS rolling stock would ride on the SHS (or K-Line) trucks. Lionel could have a 'traditional Gilbert' and a 'contemporary' S gauge line coexisting under the name American Flyer. Lionel does this in 0; why not S? The modern Legacy diesels with high rail and scale wheel sets would be part of the 'new' contemporary line. The rolling stock, including those beautiful cabeese, could reappear pretty quickly. Agreed, the boards for the SHS diesels would be a challenge, but small TMCC boards already exist and (gulp!) the FlyerChief+ boards are relatively small. The boards in the U-Boats might just fit with modification into the F-units. In my imaginings, the 2-8-0 would not be reintroduced. It is a great model, but an awful piece of industrial design ... speaking as one who has taken one apart and, then, put it back together. I always took the existence of the Lionel AF wood side reefer as proof that in an (my) ideal world, the SHS tooling should have gone to Lionel.
Some of it would be pretty easy. Some not. It is a matter money and will.
Again, no promises. Just sayin'.
Bob
@laming posted:As for MTH and HO:
I don't know how well MTH's HO offerings were going over with the HO market, but the HO forums that I frequent the consensus was "no thank you".
A quote:
'I would say that 90 percent of the HO market is complete garbage."
To which I would say this statement is NOT in touch with HO reality. Fact is, we've never had it so good in HO. When it comes to the current product (I'm in reference to engines in particular) by reputable mfg'ers, well, the detail is fantastic, the performance excellent, and with the compatibility of DCC... well... it's truly amazing. And, from what I've seen in review videos, MTH HO products ran NICE.
It is going to be interesting to see what transpires with the MTH situation.
Andre
Hi Andre:
Like you, I also played in three rail (for 11 years, with the Independent Hirailers Midwest Division). Quit doing that in 2014, never looked back, and dedicated all of my modeling efforts to my HO basement railroad, which I've been doing in my current house since 1987. So, based on a quote proffered up a few pages back, I guess I have a basement full of complete garbage. 
Here is my take on MTH and HO scale.
- MTH has offered some VERY nice pieces in HO scale. I personally know of three DM&IR modelers that were all in on the M-4 Yellowstones for multiple copies each. They run the heck out of them. They run well. The DM&IR ore cars are a thing of beauty, and I believe they sold well too. The Daylight passenger cars were very well executed. For current era modelers, I know that the SD70ACe models were well received, but the two people that I know that purchased them yarded out the DCS decider, and replaced them with ESU lok-sound decoders.
- The problem with the above offerings is that with limited exceptions, like the DM&IR Yellowstone, and ore cars, most everything else they offer is also offered by other companies with long histories with HO scale, For example, a LOT of the offerings in steam from MTH are duplicated in the offerings from BLI. BLI continues to release a huge amount of product over and over again. Intermountain offers late model GE and EMD locomotives, as do Athearn, Walthers, Atlas, Bachmann and others. HO is a tough market, with entrenched manufacturers / importers. Many of these other manufacturers are also a significant presence in N scale.
- For lack of a better term, MTH is largely irrelevant in HO. If you look at the amount of traffic generated on the MRH Forum on this topic, there isn't much there. https://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/39774 . Even less discussion on "Model Railroader" from what I could find. https://mrr.trains.com/news-re...end-date-for-company. So, the passion that is stirred among the scale community isn't anywhere near what is displayed on this forum.
- I've been playing with HO trains since my earliest years ( my dad started his HO railroad in 1955), and doing actual modeling since about age 9 (built one of my Dad's Ulrich kits, which he was not too impressed with). After all of these years, I do not own a single piece of MTH HO equipment. It isn't due to having any animosity towards MTH, it is strictly a factor of either already having models of what they offer that fit my modeling needs, or have made recent purchases of what I consider to be better ( and in some cases, cheaper) alternatives to their offerings.
With that said , the MTH equipment that I did purchase for three rail are very well done, and provided me hours of enjoyment whenever I could run them under DCS and not have the fun spoiled by DCS "gremlins". I wish Mike Wolf a happy retirement, and hope that solutions are found that will result in continued use of MTH currently owned assets.
Regards,
GNNPNUT
@Bob Bubeck posted:One can imagine (since we are wildly speculating) that the SHS rolling stock would ride on the SHS (or K-Line) trucks. Lionel could have a 'traditional Gilbert' and a 'contemporary' S gauge line coexisting under the name American Flyer. Lionel does this in 0; why not S? The modern Legacy diesels with high rail and scale wheel sets would be part of the 'new' contemporary line. The rolling stock, including those beautiful cabeese, could reappear pretty quickly. Agreed, the boards for the SHS diesels would be a challenge, but small TMCC boards already exist and (gulp!) the FlyerChief+ boards are relatively small. The boards in the U-Boats might just fit with modification into the F-units. In my imaginings, the 2-8-0 would not be reintroduced. It is a great model, but an awful piece of industrial design ... speaking as one who has taken one apart and, then, put it back together. I always took the existence of the Lionel AF wood side reefer as proof that in an (my) ideal world, the SHS tooling should have gone to Lionel.
Some of it would be pretty easy. Some not. It is a matter money and will.
Again, no promises. Just sayin'.
Bob
FlyerScale? (Like LionScale in O...) Hmmm.
I was more or less joking about SHS/MTH cars with the Flyer trucks, but given the past with the Lionel roller bearing trucks, ya never know...
It's a moot point anyway. I get the feeling it's stick a fork in the Showcase Line tooling, it's done, unless Mike sells it for a song. (Buy our O Scale tooling and get S Scale tooling FREE! Just pay an extra fee...) Now that 1/3 of Lionel's Flyer competition is gone and no serious theoretical or real buyer prospects, there's no real reason for them to pick up the Showcase Line.
Rusty
@Rusty Traque posted:FlyerScale? (Like LionScale in O...) Hmmm.
I was more or less joking about SHS/MTH cars with the Flyer trucks, but given the past with the Lionel roller bearing trucks, ya never know...
It's a moot point anyway. I get the feeling it's stick a fork in the Showcase Line tooling, it's done, unless Mike sells it for a song. (Buy our O Scale tooling and get S Scale tooling FREE! Just pay an extra fee...
Rusty
FlyerScale ..... or Tru-Model for those who know their Gilbert Flyer history.
My fun imaginings aside, you are probably correct about the likelihood of such an arrangement happening. Mike would have to sell the Showcase Line tooling very cheaply ... for much less than what he paid for it. But think about it. Doesn't the very thought delight the mind?
Now, back to the real world.
Bob
@Bob Bubeck posted:FlyerScale ..... or Tru-Model for those who know their Gilbert Flyer history.
My fun imaginings aside, you are probably correct about the likelihood of such an arrangement happening. Mike would have to sell the Showcase Line tooling very cheaply ... for much less than what he paid for it. But think about it. Doesn't the very thought delight the mind?
Now, back to the real world.
Bob
I just can’t see MTH getting any kind of good offers for the SHS tooling. Who would give top dollar for tooling that is already what? 20-30 years old in some cases? How many reruns and repaints can we possibly do? That was my whole issue with MTHs approach to S. They felt that adding their DCS system was a differentiator and people would flock to them and continue to purchase rehashed repaints. I flat out disagree with that philosophy. Yet, I have over $3k of preorders with MTH for S scale products. I did my best to support them even though I wasn’t getting what I wanted as a consumer. I used to have hope. We’ve waited for MTH to deliver on S for over 8 years now. This announcement pretty much takes any hope that was left and squashed it.
IMHO, IF S is to survive and thrive it needs to become exactly like HO, only bigger. Scale trains are the future. Toy trains will continue to fade away with their target demographic. Do I think that will happen? No, this is the beginning of the end for S. It will soon be akin to OO scale. Only the AF products will survive and they are on life support.
That’s just how I see it. It makes me sad.
@laming posted:As for MTH and HO:
I don't know how well MTH's HO offerings were going over with the HO market, but the HO forums that I frequent the consensus was "no thank you".
A quote:
'I would say that 90 percent of the HO market is complete garbage."
To which I would say this statement is NOT in touch with HO reality. Fact is, we've never had it so good in HO. When it comes to the current product (I'm in reference to engines in particular) by reputable mfg'ers, well, the detail is fantastic, the performance excellent, and with the compatibility of DCC... well... it's truly amazing. And, from what I've seen in review videos, MTH HO products ran NICE.
It is going to be interesting to see what transpires with the MTH situation.
Andre
@gnnpnut posted:
Hi Andre:
Like you, I also played in three rail (for 11 years, with the Independent Hirailers Midwest Division). Quit doing that in 2014, never looked back, and dedicated all of my modeling efforts to my HO basement railroad, which I've been doing in my current house since 1987. So, based on a quote proffered up a few pages back, I guess I have a basement full of complete garbage.
So I'd like to apologize for that statement. After having invested quite a bit of money in MTH products and starting (but not finishing) a layout in ScaleTrax, I haven't been in a great mood. After having done some research, my opinions of the offerings in HO is a little out of date. I came from the Tyco/Life-Like/Bachmann/AHM era where most of the trains were fragile and not good runners. I also got hosed pretty good on some early Athearn Genesis stuff that was made by Samhongsa that I never got to run, and then after opening the boxes after they sat, had plastic gear failures on first powering them up.
None-the-less, what I said was flippant, disrespectful to the other manufacturers and to HO operators, and not based in first hand knowledge of the current HO market.
@jonnyspeed posted:I just can’t see MTH getting any kind of good offers for the SHS tooling. Who would give top dollar for tooling that is already what? 20-30 years old in some cases? How many reruns and repaints can we possibly do?
HO does a lot of repaints also. I think Athearn is on their third release of the GP15, the "Blue Box" F7's resurface every few years and those F's are based on 60-(if you count Globe Models) 70 year old tooling. And to say nothing of freight cars.
But, back to MTH/SHS. The question is, how much of the SHS original tooling got lost in the first sale?
The jungle drums keep saying the molds for the open hopper ends are MIA, which is why the fishbelly hopper will come only with peaked ends. Same for the trailers SHS once made, which is why MTH used the O27/O31 Railking trailers on their TOFC cars. I wonder if the bulkhead molds for the flat cars also is buried deep away in a warehouse somewhere, never to see daylight again. Then there's the stock cars, outside braced boxcars, a flotilla of open hoppers and 3 bay PS2 hoppers that never were re-released. (I would've liked to have had a couple more 3-bay PS2 Burlingtons re-released...)
Rusty
@rplst8 posted:So I'd like to apologize for that statement.
<snip: relevant info>
None-the-less, what I said was flippant, disrespectful to the other manufacturers and to HO operators, and not based in first hand knowledge of the current HO market.
Ah, don't sweat it, rpl.
To be sure, there HAVE been some issues with some HO releases (as you mentioned: Cracked "China" gears), but by and large, we've been getting some amazing product in HO.
Know what you mean about losing touch with a former scale choice. I'm totally out of touch (personal experience) concerning the current state of O 3-rail models and their quality or lack of quality. My only input of same is via 3-rail oriented posts here at ORG.
Andre
@jonnyspeed posted:I just can’t see MTH getting any kind of good offers for the SHS tooling. Who would give top dollar for tooling that is already what? 20-30 years old in some cases? How many reruns and repaints can we possibly do? That was my whole issue with MTHs approach to S. They felt that adding their DCS system was a differentiator and people would flock to them and continue to purchase rehashed repaints. I flat out disagree with that philosophy. Yet, I have over $3k of preorders with MTH for S scale products. I did my best to support them even though I wasn’t getting what I wanted as a consumer. I used to have hope. We’ve waited for MTH to deliver on S for over 8 years now. This announcement pretty much takes any hope that was left and squashed it.
IMHO, IF S is to survive and thrive it needs to become exactly like HO, only bigger. Scale trains are the future. Toy trains will continue to fade away with their target demographic. Do I think that will happen? No, this is the beginning of the end for S. It will soon be akin to OO scale. Only the AF products will survive and they are on life support.
That’s just how I see it. It makes me sad.
I'm in agreement with you, and this is exactly why I wasn't kidding in another thread when I wrote that starting a model train company from scratch specializing in TT scale trains would make more business sense than buying any or all of the MTH assets. At least in TT scale you could build product to NMRA standards and use DCC based electronics.
Why would I buy the S Helper stuff? Why try and compete in such a tiny market--and especially a tiny market that is divided into two different factions?
And is the O scale market that much different? It is a larger market, but it's even more hopelessly divided.
Jeff C
@leikec posted:I'm in agreement with you, and this is exactly why I wasn't kidding in another thread when I wrote that starting a model train company from scratch specializing in TT scale trains would make more business sense than buying any or all of the MTH assets. At least in TT scale you could build product to NMRA standards and use DCC based electronics.
TT scale is thriving in Europe. Roco, Tillig, Piko and Arnold all make TT scale products.
Sad, isn't it? There are more manufactures of ready-to-run TT than S.
Rusty
Just thinking...what's really important is we are losing a major manufacturer of quality trains, What scale you're in is irrelevant.
John
I agree Steam Crazy.....a wonderful source of quality model railroad equipment is going to disappear. This is a pattern (which include Williams, K-Line, We-Honest etc.) that has me very concerned.
And related to this topic is the unavailability of O scale equipment from Atlas, Z-Stuff and Bachmann along with electronic components from various eBay suppliers via China.
This bigger picture of the current situation really has me worried.
If MTH does not survive as a whole, I think the best option would be for someone to purchase the Railking line. Railking produces some very nice semi scale models that are affordable, for people that prefer grater detail then available in some starter sets. If Railking were to survive and use its current operating system, then DCS would have a sustainable market for its electronics. Otherwise, I don't see a very long future for DCS.
I don't think there's much value in the premier line, as Lionel and 3rd rail already produce models with detail that is equal to or grater then premier. This includes rolling stock as both Atlas and Lionel make very detailed cars. The exception of course are the European models which are still in demand and would fit well with Lionel or 3rd Rail offerings.
IMHO
Junior is more than right to be worried. In my brief but spectacular time (I watch PBS Newshour), as an O gauge model train enthusiast, brief being the operative word, I have noticed just from searching the web, HO and N seem to be the most popular scales. On many occasions while searching for just about anything related to model trains, I find myself saying, "HO? Everything is for HO. Doesn't anyone sell stuff for O gauge?" Model Train Stuff has ample stock of track, Locomotives, Rolling Stock, Electronics and Accessories, and just from looking at the ads above, there are all sorts of model train sellers that cater to O gauge. But Lionel and MTH have been and until June 1 next year, will probably be, the only class 1 manufacturers of O scale Engines. Class 1 in this case meaning, manufacturers who make and distribute varieties of Engines. When I look at anything built by Bachmann, Atlas, or any other company that make products for model trains, it's HO or N.
I'm actually going somewhere with this that is on point. Bear with me. I may have mentioned this in my previous reply to this post, but it warrants repeating, DCC is labor intensive compared to Legacy and DCS. I watched a video that was part of a series that talked about how "easy" DCC was to set up and all the wonderful stuff you could do using DCC. We need to work on their definition of "easy". To make switch tracks work required something called a turtle device. All sorts of relays and boxes you had to have to make this work and that work. DCS has it's attachment issues but once you wire the track to the TIU, the remote or app does the rest. It's all relative to what you know.
MTH and Lionel are the only two companies the MAKE components for O gauge command and control. If you are accustomed to using Legacy or DCS, television remote or WIFI, if you are me, you are spoiled to how easy it was to set up and use. I use DCS because DCS was designed to run all trains, not just Lionel trains. Maybe this is the door Lionel needs open in order to turn Legacy into a community based command/control system, rather than a company based c&c system. Legacy only runs Lionel engines. DCS runs all of them if it has the proper help it needs to do so, i.e. the Base1L box. When MTH goes out of business and shuts the door and melts the key to the door, I'm not concerned about not being able to find MTH products anymore. Ebay and anyone who sells model trains will have rolling stock and engines up the ying yang to sell. But if my MTH built engine goes south, finding a dealer who fixes them may not be difficult, but finding the part to fix it is going to become, some day, impossible. I don't see a Rockauto.com for hard to find model train parts. My point, I applaud everyone for wishing Mike a happy retirement and best wishes, me included. But, and this is harsh but the only analogy I could come up with in a pinch, we are wishing the captain of the Titanic a long happy life as he floats away in the last life boat, while we the passengers still on board are forced to go down with the ship. I'm happy for Mike but his decision has left a ton of DCS users in the lurch. I can always go back to running one train manually with a transformer if my DCS goes shot. But it would be nice if Lionel could use this opportunity to somehow get Legacy to run all engines instead of just Lionel engines, which would make loss of DCS a mute issue. It's better to get started now, instead of waiting to see what the future holds for what sounds like a done deal. Unless someone buys MTH, we can kiss those three letters goodbye in every facet of the industry.
IMHO
Wouldn't it be nice, wouldn't it be noble, wouldn't it be the right thing to do - for MTH to open up the DCS system to Lionel! Let's remember, Lionel started out playing nice (or being foolish) and published all the TMCC code in the beginning! Which is why MTH can run Lionel Trains. Mike said 'Thanks very much Lionel ! And now, that you've given me all the TMCC codes, I'll create DCS and lock you out! Screw you Lionel!'
At this point I'm so glad I stayed with Lionel TMCC/Legacy and didn't bother doubling up by getting DCS. I have a few batches of MTH power, but my optimism for the future state of my MTH engines 20 years from now is Zero, given the amount of times they've been in need of electronic (mostly) and mechanical (sometimes) repairs.
If Lionel could have access to the 'basic' DCS operating codes, MTH will actually have done a service to the Hobby. By walking away, they have effectively said 'their customers aren't important'! Mike certainly deserves a happy ending for all he has done to bring Lionel (forcibly!) and O gauge into the 21st century, but as a retirement present to his customers, he's now the Grinch.
Hopefully Lionel makes some smart moves with product development and pricing in the next few years !
Lionel was smart. Now even if you want to run a Lionel engine from DCS you still need a Lionel base and a Lionel engine. How publishing their codes hurt them I’ll never understand. It’s a win for Lionel.
Pretty sure Lionel wasn’t too upset that they couldn’t operate a MTH engine from TMCC or Legacy. Then you be buying MTH engines and hardware.
I don't think this is about Lionel vs MTH......
" I use DCS because DCS was designed to run all trains, not just Lionel trains. Maybe this is the door Lionel needs open in order to turn Legacy into a community based command/control system, rather than a company based c&c system. Legacy only runs Lionel engines. DCS runs all of them if it has the proper help it needs to do so"
DCS only runs TMCC when attached to the TMCC base. If you want all the features of any newer Lionel Locomotive (Legacy) then you need to have the Legacy operating system on your layout.
I have all three on my layout (TMCC base, Legacy and DCS) and prefer to run MTH with DCS and Lionel with Legacy in order to enjoy the best of both worlds.
I had the base 1L attached for a bit, but, and I guess it was signal issues, my Lionel's kept firing up autonomously. I'd turn on the system and after a few minutes, the lionel engine began to muffle the sound of a telephone ringing, then all of a sudden with no help from me, it would burst to life. Another disappointment was that MTH at 15 SMPH was slow, but Lionel's at 15 SMPH, was break neck speed. I found it easier and opened up some shelf space by just shelving the two Lionel engines and only running MTH since I had more of them.
I don't think this is about MTH vs Lionel? I never said it was. Just clarifying. What I was trying to get across is just what I said and was repeated above in the previous reply. Translation. MTH is gone. Maybe not until June 2021, but for the most part Saudi Arabia wants us to go home so the coalition forces are cleaning up, packing up, and anyone you see flying in right now is just here to help and let the ones who've been here for months go home. I was part of Operation leave now after the Gulf War ceased, then finally ended. MTH, it's my guess, has no plans to make new stuff, they'll fix whatever is in the shop now and try to clean up that part of the operation. Any talk members and I had about the Export command in DCS WIFI Premium not working correctly, but working in the least on Android devices being updated to work the way it is supposed to work, is a mute point now.
My idea, and several have been fielded during this memorial service, was that since MTH was no longer going to be part of this hobby, but still exist in product for many years, wouldn't it be nice if the ONLY remaining O gauge company that builds O gauge engines, by the way they are a little known company called LIONEL, (being facetious), could bury any hatchets they may or may not have with MTH and MTH do the same, especially since they won't BE HERE ANYMORE, and work together over the next several months to come up with a patch that let's Legacy run MTH built engines without crutches. Who cares how it was in the past? The past is the past. How it started, how it became, how it is now, so what. What matters is whether or not we as customers who own all these expensive grade toys are wiling via this platform to try to voice our issues and concerns about what is happening today and soon, very soon, June 1 next year. If the whole Lionel monopolizing the industry thing scares you, then lobby Mike, hound him if you have to, to work out something with Rich and his other founder, Edelman?, and see if they would like to take the reigns. Evidently not. I'd like to see someone from MTH read all this and get peeved, can't use the word i wanted too, and jump in here and help us understand what is actually going on in Maryland.
My apologies if I seem over excited about this, I'm not. But all the same I am trying, and failing, to come up with a solution that may not be great for the industry, but NASCAR if you are listening, and you still own Lionel, get off your dull butts, swoop in, make a deal with Mike, and fix this. I read some place that NASCAR purchased Lionel. If I'm wrong I apologize for spreading misinformation but that's not important right now.
NASCAR OWNS LIONEL??? RFLMAO...the chuckle of the week. I think Lionel is owned by WellSpring Associates...I'll eat "scrapple humble pie" if I am incorrect.
Pls be Covid19 safe, fellow forumites!
@redjimmy1955 posted:NASCAR OWNS LIONEL??? RFLMAO...the chuckle of the week. I think Lionel is owned by WellSpring Associates...I'll eat "scrapple humble pie" if I am incorrect.
Pls be Covid19 safe, fellow forumites!
I believe Guggenheim is the majority holder of Lionel now.
