MTH Premier vs. Lionel VisionLine GS-4

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I've fixed enough of the Lionel K4's that I keep an extra drive block in stock!  I think I'm up to six replacements now, and it's only a matter of time before another one come in.

Another one just made the front page of the forum. What happens when the replacement fails down the road??

Theres gonna be alot of Legacy K4's sitting on shelves.

Again, this gearbox design is in just about everything now. Any loco that you peek above the powered axle behind the spokes and see the bushing with the shaft rotating in it.

I stopped after the H10 ,and on this model theres so much lateral slop on the intermediate gear. When the worm shoves it to one side, only 1/3rd (or less) of the tooth face makes contact on the next gear.

@RickO posted:

Another one just made the front page of the forum. What happens when the replacement fails down the road??

Theres gonna be alot of Legacy K4's sitting on shelves.

Again, this gearbox design is in just about everything now. Any loco that you peek above the powered axle behind the spokes and see the bushing with the shaft rotating in it.

I stopped after the H10 ,and on this model theres so much lateral slop on the intermediate gear. When the worm shoves it to one side, only 1/3rd (or less) of the tooth face makes contact on the next gear.

I'm done with "new Lionel" its TMCC for me!

I’d like a dead chassis to see about a fix,....my section of the NYC has a pretty extensive R&D dept.......we specialize in, poof, boom, snap, & what in the **** was that??....😆

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

I’d like a dead chassis to see about a fix,....my section of the NYC has a pretty extensive R&D dept.......we specialize in, poof, boom, snap, & what in the **** was that??....😆

Pat

Forum member David Bross just posted a Legacy K4 gearbox failure, maybe he'd be willing to let his loco be the test subject.   https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...3#153603996790253003

Is this gearbox in the diesels and electrics, too?

It seems to be a thing in the steam engines, but if it’s other locomotives, they haven’t seemed to rear their heads yet.

@Mikado 4501 posted:

Is this gearbox in the diesels and electrics, too?

It seems to be a thing in the steam engines, but if it’s other locomotives, they haven’t seemed to rear their heads yet.

Pretty sure most all Lionel diesels have gone to liondrive. Its essentially the same as china drive but instead of the worm mounted on the motor shaft, there is a coupling between the motor and the worm.

Pete

@RickO posted:

Forum member David Bross just posted a Legacy K4 gearbox failure, maybe he'd be willing to let his loco be the test subject.   https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...3#153603996790253003

Maybe, at some point Lionel is gonna run out of service chassis, .....at least I’d think,...

@Mikado 4501 posted:

Is this gearbox in the diesels and electrics, too?

It seems to be a thing in the steam engines, but if it’s other locomotives, they haven’t seemed to rear their heads yet.

This problem is the scale steam locomotives, and at this point, it’s only specific models, as far as I can tell,....but not to be dismayed, legacy diesels have their own myriad of mechanical issues,....😉....seriously though, it’s not all legacy wide,.....as stated before, it’s not all doom & gloom,....

Pat  

@Mikado 4501 posted:

It’s definitely worth looking into if almost all the steam engines made by Lionel are using this gear box design. I’ve had a good experience with the Lionel steamers post 2010 so far - my FEF-3 and Vision Hudson in particular have proved to be very solid machines - and I have a new B6 on the way and a new light Mikado on order to arrive this Summer, so we’ll see how well those locomotives hold up...

First gen Legacy stuff does not use this design, i.e. first legacy Berks, FEF, M1B etc.

This gearbox first appeared in the Legacy K4 back in 2011? I believe. From there, its in:

ALL of the Legacy Mikados, heavy and light.

The LegacyH10's

Legacy Mohawks and mountains

Legacy Pacifics

The new SP Northerns, ATSF Northerns Likely the most recent round of  MR s3's  and FEFs as well.

I believe its also found its way in to some of the articulateds, the Mallets and possibly others

Its fairly easy to spot, its just a matter of looking through the spokes of the powered axle at the chassis .

If you look through the spokes on the second driver from the rear on this video of the new GS4 you can see the bushing and shaft.

Go to about the 2:40 mark ( not my video)

I have a few of the recent SD40’s that use that new rotation coupling between the motor and truck drive. So far, they’re pretty durable and easy to clip apart and back together, and most of the gears are on the outside, but I guess we’ll see how well they hold up.

My FEF-3 is the one from the 2015 run. I’ll have to take a look just in case here, too.

Same with the recent B6 and (light and heavy) Mikados. At least with those two, their K-Line counterpart chassis’ are still out there for scavenging.

@RickO posted:

Forum member David Bross just posted a Legacy K4 gearbox failure, maybe he'd be willing to let his loco be the test subject.   https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...3#153603996790253003

That's my question. Is it a poor design that can't take the torque or is the gearbox failing because of incorrect/inadequate lubrication?

The newest (2019 V2 catalog) Legacy ATSF 3751 class Northerns have the new gearbox as well. I'm not sure if the 2012 ones do or not.

Mine had plenty of lubrication Lou, IMO its a poor design. The brunt of the torque is taken on one side of the shaft and this is the bushing that fails.

Heres the gearbox in my H10. The brass colored gear is turned by the worm, the gear next to it turns the gear on the axle.

In this photo you can also see that the smaller gear which turns the axles only makes partial contact with the axle gear. Theres enough slop to slide it over but no way to get a a shim in there. I ended up shimming the axle to one side to achieve the same result.

Personally I think the worm may only be making partial contact as well.

Here I have slide the( brass gear) intermediate shaft over, the gears mesh better:

@Lou1985 posted:

That's my question. Is it a poor design that can't take the torque or is the gearbox failing because of incorrect/inadequate lubrication?

And that’s the million dollar question,....as far as I know, Rick’s wasted the bushing, and I know for fact John had some that stripped the splines off the gear that keep it pressed onto the intermediate shaft,....now whether he’s seen the bushing go 🤮like Ricks did, I don’t know,...if it’s just the gear stripped on the shaft, to be sure I could come up with a remedy, ....it’ll be a job for sure, but I don’t mind .......like I said, I’d need a test subject to determine the corrective repairs,....Rick said he seen his K4 start to munch on itself,....that just can’t be good,...

Pat

@Norton posted:

Pretty sure most all Lionel diesels have gone to liondrive. Its essentially the same as china drive but instead of the worm mounted on the motor shaft, there is a coupling between the motor and the worm.

Pete

And the failure mode there is the little mating "knob" on the motor shaft loses it's grip on the motor shaft.   I've started putting them back together with Loctite retaining compound, they're just press fit on the shaft.

@harmonyards posted:

And that’s the million dollar question,....as far as I know, Rick’s wasted the bushing, and I know for fact John had some that stripped the splines off the gear that keep it pressed onto the intermediate shaft,....now whether he’s seen the bushing go 🤮like Ricks did, I don’t know,...if it’s just the gear stripped on the shaft, to be sure I could come up with a remedy, ....it’ll be a job for sure, but I don’t mind .......like I said, I’d need a test subject to determine the corrective repairs,....Rick said he seen his K4 start to munch on itself,....that just can’t be good,...

Pat

Yeah. There's a huge difference between a spline that fails and the whole shaft wobbling around....

If the shaft bearings are the issue I wonder if some kind of RC car ball bearing would be the answer? It's possible the brass bushings are too soft for the thrust loads.

@RickO posted:

Mine had plenty of lubrication Lou, IMO its a poor design. The brunt of the torque is taken on one side of the shaft and this is the bushing that fails.

Heres the gearbox in my H10. The brass colored gear is turned by the worm, the gear next to it turns the gear on the axle.

In this photo you can also see that the smaller gear which turns the axles only makes partial contact with the axle gear. Theres enough slop to slide it over but no way to get a a shim in there. I ended up shimming the axle to one side to achieve the same result.

Personally I think the worm may only be making partial contact as well.

Here I have slide the( brass gear) intermediate shaft over, the gears mesh better:

I'm betting the bearing used for that intermediate gear isn't strong enough for the application, causing it to move. That or it needs constant splash lubrication, because it's possibly not an oilite bearing.

@Lou1985 posted:

Yeah. There's a huge difference between a spline that fails and the whole shaft wobbling around....

If the shaft bearings are the issue I wonder if some kind of RC car ball bearing would be the answer? It's possible the brass bushings are too soft for the thrust loads.

I was thinking those ball bearing inserts ,.....if I can find them in that sizing,.....I’ve already proven their worthiness, ....at 1000+ hours as axle bearings,...😉

Pat

Since the type A-1 and T-1 Berkshires were brought up earlier in the thread, I have  both the the 6-11387 Santa Fe Legacy T-1b Berkshire #4199, and the K-Line T-1b Berkshire #4198.

The K-Line has the forward facing into the smokebox smallish RS350PH motor. I think it gears directly into the 2nd driver.  The Lionel has the larger Cannon motor that completely fills the firebox and has the multi-stage gearing that drives the third driver that is shown in posts above. If I remember correctly, Lionel received a lot of praise when these locos were released for the changes made to the drive train.

All that I can say is this, the Lionel is vastly superior in operation. The gearing seems to have held up well over the years. No problems for me.  I regularly pull 25 car freights and 10 car aluminum passenger cars with the #4199; something I could not do with the K-Line unit as it would overheat and stall. Perhaps Lionel used tighter tolerances back in 2013? The A1/T1 Berks are now 8 years old. I don't recall any problems with the gearing of these units. Problems would have presented themselves in the Berks if there was something inherent with the design of the gears.

Update

This thread is as a good excuse as any to take the shell of and check things out a bit. The gears look just fine. The gears looked a little bit on the dry side so added more grease.

@harmonyards posted:

I was thinking those ball bearing inserts ,.....if I can find them in that sizing,.....I’ve already proven their worthiness, ....at 1000+ hours as axle bearings,...😉

Pat

The torture test Berkshire proved they work. Just need the correct size.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

And the failure mode there is the little mating "knob" on the motor shaft loses it's grip on the motor shaft.   I've started putting them back together with Loctite retaining compound, they're just press fit on the shaft.

I have not seen the nub move on the shaft but have seen two different engines with both the motor nub and the coupling worn out resulting in a free spinning motor.

The only advantage of liondrive is quick removal of the truck but at the expense of more parts to wear out plus a higher riding engine.

Wouldn't be great if Lionel adopts MTH's diesel truck design. Simple and rugged.

Pete

If I come across one that made me mad enough, .....I’ll cut the whole darned gear box out, and put me in a floater,...😆😆😆....my theory is, it can’t hurt if it’s gone,....

Pat

I'm also curious how close the gearbox design is chassis to chassis. The K4 Rick posted above has a removeable bottom plate. I don't think all the chassis with this multi-gear setup have that. It could be possible that there is something specific to the K4 chassis that causes this issue. I haven't heard of the same number of failures of this design as I have with the K4, so perhaps Lionel made changes after that production?

We've strayed way off the original topic but I think this has been at least somewhat helpful to the OP's decision .

@Norton posted:

I have not seen the nub move on the shaft but have seen two different engines with both the motor nub and the coupling worn out resulting in a free spinning motor.

The only advantage of liondrive is quick removal of the truck but at the expense of more parts to wear out plus a higher riding engine.

Wouldn't be great if Lionel adopts MTH's diesel truck design. Simple and rugged.

Pete

This is true, ....really don’t hear a whole lot of gear drive problems on MTH diesels....

Pat

@Lou1985 posted:

I'm also curious how close the gearbox design is chassis to chassis. The K4 Rick posted above has a removeable bottom plate. I don't think all the chassis with this multi-gear setup have that. It could be possible that there is something specific to the K4 chassis that causes this issue. I haven't heard of the same number of failures of this design as I have with the K4, so perhaps Lionel made changes after that production?

We've strayed way off the original topic but I think this has been at least somewhat helpful to the OP's decision .

Yeah,...I was wondering about that too,....we’re way off course,....hopefully the mods will see the usefulness of the thread, but we are on thin ice,.....one more broken gear, and I’d bet we’d all be on the bottom looking up,...😉

Pat

@WBC posted:

Since the type A-1 and T-1 Berkshires were brought up earlier in the thread, I have  both the the 6-11387 Santa Fe Legacy T-1b Berkshire #4199, and the K-Line T-1b Berkshire #4198.

The K-Line has the forward facing into the smokebox smallish RS350PH motor. I think it gears directly into the 2nd driver.  The Lionel has the larger Cannon motor that completely fills the firebox and has the multi-stage gearing that drives the third driver that is shown in posts above. If I remember correctly, Lionel received a lot of praise when these locos were released for the changes made to the drive train.

All that I can say is this, the Lionel is vastly superior in operation. The gearing seems to have held up well over the years. No problems for me.  I regularly pull 25 car freights and 10 car aluminum passenger cars with the #4199; something I could not do with the K-Line unit as it would overheat and stall. Perhaps Lionel used tighter tolerances back in 2013? The A1/T1 Berks are now 8 years old. I don't recall any problems with the gearing of these units. Problems would have presented themselves in the Berks if there was something inherent with the design of the gears.

What you said is all quite true, ....naturally a large can motored locomotive with way more advanced electronics is going to do better than a puny motor with early electronics,....it’s good to hear your berks are holding up, ......input from the field like this is important,.....so 25 car trains are the norm for your legacy Berk?...how long do you let it run?...have you serviced it?...what’s the gearbox look like after all this time?...this would be all great information ( good or bad) to determine longevity,.....

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

What you said is all quite true, ....naturally a large can motored locomotive with way more advanced electronics is going to do better than a puny motor with early electronics,....it’s good to hear your berks are holding up, ......input from the field like this is important,.....

so 25 car trains are the norm for your legacy Berk?

Currently running 20 cars. Mostly 50 foot box cars, couple of the new beer cars, and a couple of PS1 sound cars.

...how long do you let it run?

With the busy schedule there is not much time for trains. My train operating time is before bedtime. The trains usually get an thirty minutes to an hour of operation per day.

...have you serviced it?

I service it myself. I have replaced the tires. I lube locos once a year. The oilite bushings that are visible behind the drivers exhibit neither wear nor slop.

...what’s the gearbox look like after all this time?...

I opened the gear box when I first received the locomotive but not since.

this would be all great information ( good or bad) to determine longevity,.....

Pat

You should get both to do a side by side comparison.

This is sad to hear.  Model train gearboxes were perfected in the 1930s.  For a bunch of years NWSL made some really good steam gearboxes - I would like to think I was instrumental in getting them to go ball bearing on all O Scale and larger gear boxes.

The early ones used bronze bearings, so I quickly converted them to aircraft gyro bearings - we have a 4-4-0 at the museum that, last I heard, wore through four motors on a single gearbox.  Thousands of actual hours!

We did have MTH Diesel failures, but they were after literally years of all day running.  It was something like replace axle gears at three year intervals, worms every other time, and re-bush the axles at ten years.  MTH was gracious in supplying parts. (So was Atlas, but that's another story).

MTH axle bearings are, believe it or not, almost the same as Piper Cub aileron bushings.