@Chuck, I am sure many of us are amazed at 1/4 peg board plus carpet. How do you screw things down?
PS, You must grin at the threads extolling 2x4s and 3/4 plywood. 
I put a flat head screw, occasionally, in the pegboard joints that rest over the Sievers Benchwork 1 X 4s. It’s slightly flexible when I walked on it but quite strong. The Sievers has 1 foot centers.
It all developed when I found all the plywood at Home Depot so wavy and some downright warped. The 1/4 pegboard was nice and flat. Actually I think it’s 3/16 and at Lowe’s and Menards it was 1/4, but basically the same.
I just measured my access holes, they are actually 1 foot by 3 feet, I was guessing 2 by 4 and got to thinking when I remembered that the Sievers had 1 foot centers on the benchwork. I guess that's why I have to duck down to turn around. My hip bones are farther apart than a foot. 
But with a small foot stool under the layout I can easily climb up out of the hole if I want.
So it all works for me...I love being able to poke an awl into the carpet and find a hole to run the power for things thru. I noticed in my picture that sometimes I didn't go under the switch which is a bit constrained and found the nearest hole just outside. But the grey covering on the 4 conductor cable blends in with the grey carpet...thought about green, but grey blended better with the track.
Slow and not so steady, but I'm making some progress. I got my Ross switches and Gargraves track in, and I just picked up my wood for the top. I went with 5 x 5 birch multi-ply, it's really nice and flat and will make getting it together a lot easier than the cheaper plywood. It also helps with the Mianne spacing, my 4 foot wide bench actually needs 49 3/4" to go to the outer edges of the legs. This would be a giant PITA with 4 x 8 sheets.
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GRJ-
those birch multi- ply sheets of 60” x 60” will be really solid now and over the years! No warping I’m sure!
Carl J
I'm going to hate to cover it with track and scenery, it's such pretty wood. 
Right, that's nice stuff GRJ, too bad it'll be covered with scenery and ballast! 
I've done a little cabinetry with that material and it looks great with a stain and finish--and super flat it certainly is.
I didn't realize it was so inexpensive, I expected nice panels like this to cost more.
GRJ, Which thickness did you go with?
Tom, I cheaped out and used 1/2". Handling 3/4" by myself is pretty heavy, I hefted a sheet of each and decided on the 1/2".
gunrunnerjohn posted:Tom, I cheaped out and used 1/2". Handling 3/4" by myself is pretty heavy, I hefted a sheet of each and decided on the 1/2".
Had to laugh as I was thinking about myself as I read this. As I age I want and NEED Lighter materials. It is not cheap just age for me!
Well, it was 80% age for me as well. If the 3/4" panels were easy enough to handle by myself, I'd have gone that way. I wasn't that concerned about the difference in price, I only have a 12.5 x 20 layout.
gunrunnerjohn posted:Slow and not so steady, but I'm making some progress. I got my Ross switches and Gargraves track in, and I just picked up my wood for the top. I went with 5 x 5 birch multi-ply, it's really nice and flat and will make getting it together a lot easier than the cheaper plywood. It also helps with the Mianne spacing, my 4 foot wide bench actually needs 49 3/4" to go to the outer edges of the legs. This would be a giant PITA with 4 x 8 sheets.
Where does on buy 5x5 sheets of plywood. Did this come from a big box store, or did you need to go to a lumber yard?
You have to go to a lumber yard, and for this I went to a place in Reading PA, Russell Plywood. They specialize in plywood and had several hundred sheets of this in stock. Cool stuff, it has 9 plies as opposed to standard 1/2" plywood with three.
gunrunnerjohn posted:Slow and not so steady, but I'm making some progress. I got my Ross switches and Gargraves track in, and I just picked up my wood for the top. I went with 5 x 5 birch multi-ply, it's really nice and flat and will make getting it together a lot easier than the cheaper plywood. It also helps with the Mianne spacing, my 4 foot wide bench actually needs 49 3/4" to go to the outer edges of the legs. This would be a giant PITA with 4 x 8 sheets.
Have gone to using Baltic Birch for everything I can John. A lumber yard near here had the 5' X 5' as well as 4' X 8' in different thicknesses.
That looks nice! I think you will be just fine with the 1/2". Not Baltic birch, but I did the same thing with 1/2" due to weight of 3/4". Even had Home Depot cut the 1/2" sheets to size before trying to load them up. I got Sandply (7 plies) which is (or was) also pretty good stuff, flat and smooth and no voids in the plies.
All the 'real' lumber yards here have turned into Home Depot or Lowes. I have not yet checked with Menards, they have opened a few stores in this area over the last few years. Menards does seem to have a better selection than the others when it comes to different lumber types.
Also, wish I would have done like you are and extended the plywood out to the edge of my Mianne legs. Maybe even a little past the edges.
My plan is a fascia on the outside of the legs, and I want the table surface to come up to the fascia. Still cogitating on any extra surface on the plywood, I might go with some thin hemosite on the surface, but I'm up in the air about that. First things first, get the basic top on after some pre-wiring.
I looked at the sandply, but the 5 x 5 sheets were perfect for my situation. It really wasn't much more for the birch.
That really is some nice birch.
John that looks and sounds like furniture grade plywood could be that place was selling waste or surplus to get that high quality at a bargain price. Good job finding it.
I don't think so, they're a wholesale plywood company, it's their business. Russell Plywood - Home. When I asked before going up, they had 200+ sheets in stock, and they stated this was a stock item that they normally always have on hand. I have a contractor friend that uses them, that's how I found out about them. None of the local stores or lumber yards carried the right size.
It certainly looks like furniture grade, one side is a perfect wood grain. The other side is also smooth without voids, but it has the oval patches in places. It really is great looking wood, seems a shame to use it on the layout. OTOH, I know where to get more at a good price if I ever have a different project.
That's nice stuff John. Perfect for going a little over 4'. With the Mainne base the 1/2" should be fine.
Now if it was me I would have put a loop of track on that pile and ran a train....but that's just me
Well, I tried to put a loop on the benchwork, but it fell through. 
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I guess you need the birch ply there to stop it from falling like that. I hate when that happens.
gunrunnerjohn posted:Well, I tried to put a loop on the benchwork, but it fell through.
Oh, the humanity!!!
Lol John, every new RR begins one track at a time!!
This one has just been a long time coming. However, we're slowly moving in the right direction.
John, I am glad to see your Dream Layout is progressing along. Your certainly buying quality building materials which is the right way to go, I do recommend Homasote for the sound deadening and ease of screwing the track to just the Homasote. It’s fun, when you get to the point of running your trains, to sometimes simply turn off all sounds and listen to the trains run Quietly with just the clickety clack of the wheels going over the rails.....I have noticed over the years that each engine, whether it be Lionel, Atlas O, Sunset 3rd Rail, MTH, ETC., HAVE their own unique situations on the track and turnouts. If your running Big Boys, or 0-4-0’s, or 4-8-4’s, Whatever, the Front End swing, or the rear end swing, it’s all in the Game.
Thanks for the updates, looking forward to more.....Happy Railroading
Larry, if you lay homesite on top of plywood don’t the screws engage the plywood? Does this cause the plywood to resonate ?
Homosote
Homasote.
You glue it to the plywood and use 3/8” screws to secure the track to the...
1/2” homasote.
If you are using homasote, you really don’t need expensive cabinet grade birch plywood, but it certainly doesn’t hurt. Not my call. Just sayin.
Just build it man. Have fun.
.
I have built a lot os layouts over the last 70 years. Always used 1/2 inch plywood. Never a problem.
The reason for the multi-ply was simple, it's much flatter than the standard plywood generally available. Also, since a lot of my layout is going slightly over four feet wide, 4x8 sheets are very wasteful. The difference in the price of plywood and the multi-ply wasn't all that great, especially considering the multi-ply came in the 5x5 sheets that work out more efficiently for this particular layout.
Another reason for better wood is the Mianne benchwork only has attachment to the plywood at the legs, so the possibility of warping later is much greater with fewer layers in the plywood, this stuff has nine layers and is much less likely to warp over time. I've already spent around $4000 on all the track, switches, benchwork, wire, and roadbed. Less than $100 extra for better wood seems like a really good investment.
Hmmm, guess this isn’t the prototype you’re wanting to model, huh John?
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I've run on layouts like that, some of them mine, so I'm trying to do better this time.
Ok, everyone has great ideas, I used 5/8, 5 ply plywood, 5/8 homasote, and 1/4 inch cork roadbed, and used Atlas O screws to fasten the track to the homasote. They do not penetrate The plywood. Atlas O and Ross track. Also, one very important suggestion, when laying the track, I highly recommend leveling the track. Homasote is wavy and another thought is to paint it a good color of your choice. We used dark green and dark brown. This helps keep the moisture out. My layout is located in my basement, so far, no moisture issues. We do have a 16 seer Trane system for our middle level and the basement.
If I have looked at the pictures correctly, the layout Benchwork is made of excellent materials, and rests on nice carpet. I am not sure homasote is necessary if cork roadbed is under the track. My thinking was in the olden days, tubular Track fastened to plywood laying on saw horses, running TinPlate toy trains caused vibration issues. Happy Railroading
John:
The multi-ply is the right way to go for exactly the reasons you state. It’s one thing I’ve sworn to use if I ever build another layout. When I built my layout I was extremely careful to get the flat parts perfectly flat. After 12 years there are a couple wavy spots that can only have resulted from wood movement. My basement is extremely dry, so I’m sure this hasn’t been caused by dampness and the room is also heated and air conditioned, so temperature swings aren’t an issue either. An additional benefit, I believe, is that the rigidity and stability of the multi ply might help a little to dampen vibration and be a little quieter.
The “wavy” areas on my layout are very subtle and I doubt anyone but me has noticed. I actually like the minute rocking of freight cars traversing this section caused by the plywood warping slightly, passenger trains, not so much.
I sure wish we lived closer together, I’d love to be helping with your construction.
I wish you lived closer too Pat, because you'd be a real asset in putting this together! I've seen your woodworking, and it would be a think of beauty with your hands in the mix! The jury is still out what it'll look like after I get through with it. 
As for vibration, since the Mianne benchwork only attaches in a few places, I'm seriously considering running a bead of construction adhesive along all the beams to prevent them from vibrating against the beams, I suspect that could be a major source of vibration and noise. My other thought was some thin rubber sealing strips along the beams to keep them from vibrating against the beams. They would have the benefit of not being permanent if I had to pick a piece of the plywood up.
Although I'm really Jonesing to have a layout to run on, I'm glad I took my time as I've made several changes after reflection on where it was headed. If I had charged ahead with the first concept, I don't think I'd have been as happy with the end result.
John, have you considered sill sealer to place between the base and plywood? It comes in rolls at the box stores, can be doubled if desired and if compressed between the plywood and beams, will stop vibration and be easy to separate if work on it later.
I wasn't sure what it was called, that's what I'm thinking about. It's about 3/8" wide and maybe 1/8" to 1/4" thick, and indeed comes in rolls. I have some, but it's not in it's package, so I was just going to go look for it in Lowes.
The rolls of sill sealer are for wedging between bottom beam of a wall section and the foundation plate, usually 6 inches or so wide and 50 foot rolls for about $10. I doubled it in spots where I butted my tables together. I used 2'x5', 3'x4' and 3'x5' tables to form my base using 1x3 pine frames and 2x4 studs for the legs, with multi-ply 3/4" tops, I knew I would be walking on it, so built it for my 250 pounds of dead weight. The sealer compresses well and so far, after 3 years, kept the wood from making noise.
I think what I'm going to need is weatherstripping. The beams on the Mianne benchwork are only 3/4" wide, so what I am looking at is the one sided sticky weatherstripping rolls. I'll stick it to the benchwork beams and then just lay the plywood on top of it. I just want it to keep the plywood from rattling against the beams.
That will work John, I needed 2.5 inch wide strips for between the benches so I just doubled the sealer and stapled it every 12-15" then screwed the benches together.
gunrunnerjohn posted:I think what I'm going to need is weatherstripping. The beams on the Mianne benchwork are only 3/4" wide, so what I am looking at is the one sided sticky weatherstripping rolls. I'll stick it to the benchwork beams and then just lay the plywood on top of it. I just want it to keep the plywood from rattling against the beams.
That's probably a pretty good idea. I didn't think of weather strip, but I did have a couple of places where the top had a very small gap between it and the Mianne frame. This was in places where there were no legs and I only had enough brackets to fasten to the legs, so I ordered some extra brackets and screws from Tim and all was well. My sandply probably wasn't as flat/level as your Baltic birch either, but still the extra brackets may provide added stability and cut down on any extra vibrations.
rtr12 postedMy sandply probably wasn't as flat/level as your Baltic birch either, but still the extra brackets may provide added stability and cut down on any extra vibrations.
Guys, not all vibrations are bad.
John, how about a strip of weather stripping like they put between a truck and camper shell? Adhesive on one side and foam rubber on the other. I wish I had done that but I also put additional 90 deg mounting brackets anywhere I thought they would do some good. I got metal ones from Lowes but I bet they have the same basic type Mianne uses.
Weather stripping is actually what I'm considering.
The saga continues. A little 2 foot "bump out" was added on one end, and the plywood is going on. I may yet get to run trains on this...
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Looking good John and much bigger with some of the plywood down.
Yep, it suddenly looks like it doubled in size. Now, if that were only reality...
Of course, it did get two feet longer, I went around the poles...
I think it does look bigger with the top going on. Starting to take shape now and looking good!
If I can only get the splinters out of my fingers, all will be well. The Hemasote is sitting in the garage, that goes on when the top is finished.
Good night John! ....that is a nice size...great work!....now can we get the loop off the floor?...........Pat
Well, the loop is off the floor, so I have to get cracking on laying track! A few steps to go before that, but it's coming...
That will be a very nice layout John, half the fun is making changes on the fly when finally do start laying track down:-P
Looking good John
Alex
GRJ, if your going to glue down your Homasote, 12" x 12" flooring tiles work great for weight to hold it flat til the glue dries. Check with your friends and neighbors they may have some left over from a project. Most contractors leave extra behind just in case a repair is needed down the road. You can also find them very cheap when a style is discontinued.
Love watching these all come together. Exciting!
John
my offer is still open. if you need specialized bridges or structures laser cut. I'd be happy to do it for you. You have given me ( and others) so many great "electronic" stuff it's the least I can do.
Looking great John.
Thanks all for the comments, and of course for the offer of any assistance!
I already know my track plan will be undergoing a lot of alterations now, I've expanded at one end, and some new ideas have surfaced about the traffic flow. I'm also doing a bit more to plan for the yard that will be added next.
Dave, the glue we're using is something Tom uses all the time for layouts, it's a once and done product. You drop the sheet in place and it's there for the duration! I'm getting more psyched about finally having a layout again!
Good going GUNS!!!!! Keep on keepin on.
One more step, I just humped the Hemasote from the garage around to the basement, I'm sitting in front of the fan cooling off.
The downside of getting older John, we have the time, it is the gumption to get the heavy haulin done we stumble on, now is when a grandson or nephew or neighbor kid with a strong back would be good.
I should have gotten my grandson over to help, he's big enough to husk them around now.
Hemasote? Drew blood?
Officially hump day now!😂
gunrunnerjohn posted:Thanks all for the comments, and of course for the offer of any assistance!
I already know my track plan will be undergoing a lot of alterations now, I've expanded at one end, and some new ideas have surfaced about the traffic flow. I'm also doing a bit more to plan for the yard that will be added next.
Dave, the glue we're using is something Tom uses all the time for layouts, it's a once and done product. You drop the sheet in place and it's there for the duration! I'm getting more psyched about finally having a layout again!
This is causing me to want to tear up my layout and rebuild it. I mostly enjoyed building the layout, running it is fun, but building it is the most fun.
gunrunnerjohn posted:The saga continues. A little 2 foot "bump out" was added on one end, and the plywood is going on.
Was there a sale on clamps that I missed ?
Lookin' good, John.
Gunrunner, the platform for your new layout is looking really good. I look forward to seeing some trains run and how are your going to control your trains. Will you be using Legacy and DCS? Also, will you be controlling your trains Via IPad and or IPhone? I look forward to seeing you at York in October. Keep posting those great pictures. Happy Railroading
"Was there a sale on clamps that I missed ? "
Now I know why I couldn't find any at the hardware store the other day. John cleaned out the supply.
More cutting and fitting, doesn't look like much, but it's coming.
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Farmer_Bill posted:Hemasote? Drew blood?
Well, the spell checker can't spell Homasote either, so I don't notice when I type the wrong thing.
Looking good.....I’ll have use all your techniques....if you don’t mind...lol
Nessmuck posted:Looking good.....I’ll have use all your techniques....if you don’t mind...lol
Use away!
Richie C. posted:gunrunnerjohn posted:The saga continues. A little 2 foot "bump out" was added on one end, and the plywood is going on.
Was there a sale on clamps that I missed ?
Lookin' good, John.
No, and we ran out of clamps, bringing more tomorrow.
One of the neat things about working with John is anytime I suggest to push the layout edge out here or add a bump out on over there his only response was "OK".
However, he was a bit hesitant to let me take a notch out of the basement door to clear the expanded benchwork. I figure I'll just swap in a smaller door and pack out the jamb when he's not looking.
leapinlarry posted:Gunrunner, the platform for your new layout is looking really good. I look forward to seeing some trains run and how are your going to control your trains. Will you be using Legacy and DCS? Also, will you be controlling your trains Via IPad and or IPhone? I look forward to seeing you at York in October. Keep posting those great pictures. Happy Railroading
I'll be running Legacy/TMCC and DCS, and I do have both the WiFi adapters from the two makers. I will be using LCS at some point. I will also be able to switch in for conventional on the mainlines, I'll probably keep the Z-4000 on tap for that feature. I have the Z-4000 remote receiver, and I can control that from the DCS remote.
Tom's giving all my layout building secrets away. Actually, I only have one real secret. I invite Tom over to do the heavy lifting! I'm the guy that gets to crawl under and hold things.
Great Progress John. It’s coming along nicely. Nice to see a master at work.
Andy
Steamfan77 posted:Great Progress John. It’s coming along nicely. Nice to see a master at work.
Andy
Well, the "master" is the guy in the background that's busy working while I'm goldbricking. I'd be lost without his guidance.
Tom Tee posted:The rest of the clamps were tied up:
And there are those missing clamps!
Nice fit up around that pole! I am gathering from some of the posts here that you have some top notch help with you too, very hard (maybe impossible) to beat that kind of pro quality help. You will have track and trains running in no time now!
Yes, that's the only reason I'm anywhere near this far along. Now only will the trains be running, but I think the layout will have a unique flair that many don't. I'm getting pretty pumped to get some track down.
Excellent progress John! That is great Tom is helping out!
Using the angle and extending the edges when cut out the post section was a great idea John, much stronger than what I would come up with. I think you missed a spot with a clamp though, I saw too much wood showing
I'm afraid all the good ideas aren't mine, but I'll get to enjoy them when we're done. Mark, it's truthfully more like I'm helping out, for layout building Tom is the 16" gun here. I have moved a lot of wood around...
Unique flair indeed! With the assistant and assistance you have here it's guaranteed to be spectacular!
Here's some more progress pictures. We've done a lot of cutting, and also some planning and reconfiguration of how the track will be laid. This is also the post that the track will come around on the one end.
The hole in the center is the "command" station.
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Wow you guys are making a lot of progress , and it's looking real good.
Alex
Looking Great John; Tom is a master at building layouts. I have seen his work at Jack Malley's home.
The guy does spectacular work. And he's a nice guy Too.
If I only had the space, Id be calling on Tom for his help as well.
Really looking good John
Franky-Ogee
Great updates. I like the use of the rounded or curved corners so as to lessen that annoying pain when your side hits a sharp edge as you move about the layout.
I would have never thought of all the rounded corners if it weren't for Tom, but I can see the effect will be stunning! There will be very few straight sides when we're done.
Looking good!!
Yes John, I see now that now! Great Job, Tom!!
Have you snuck a loop of track on it to run a train yet John? 
Looking really good, good luck...
No trains running yet Ron, but I'm eager to see that happen.
I’m enjoying the show, keep up the good work. The benchwork is beautiful.
Morning John, I just got done catching up with your thread. I don't know if you and Tom are building a layout our a master piece of art, in my eyes it looks as to be both! I sure hope you are taking lots of pictures for your record and future magazine article ! Looks great and best of luck as you move forward! I will be trying to do a better job keeping up with the build!
I can say with Tom's eye, the layout will be far and away more impressive than anything I could have whacked out myself. Clearly, being a woodworking craftsman is key to getting a great result here, something that I never claimed to be.
John,
As a former framer, my experience with lumber made it a no brainer to build with studs, 1x3 and dimensional along with sanded 3/4 plywood. I was not sure how to make the curved edges so stayed with square edges, the final product was enjoyable, but like many I would definitely change a few things and add a second layer to it. Tom is definitely a finish carpenter with loads of talent.
