O Scale Erie Passenger Steam Locomotive Suggestions

Lionel did a nice Pacific in the early 2000s. Came with a big Pittman, two chuffs and fan smoke. Easily upgraded to 4 chuffs. I believe its fairly close to prototype. Should easily pull about 15 18" cars.

Pete

That is nice Pete.  Thanks for sharing.  I only need to pull four 20" cars and a few miscellaneous head end cars for the time being and probably won't grow this train past 7 or 8 cars total so this would be an ideal locomotive to pull it. 

It was made in early 2000s so might be Korean made. Its another tank.

Pete

Will 2nd that suggestion Pete - I picked up one of these recently from here on the Forum and am very pleased with it. Smokes well and sounds great. Had never seen one before so didn't know anything about it. Do you know if it is 'too long' like the PRR k4 from 2002 as it measures 13" from the rear of the headlight to the lip of the cab. The same length as my K-Line Hudson.

The feedwater heater is very nicely detailed for 2001 Lionel.

Sam, the Lionel engine is not an exact model of the Erie K5. It and the B&O Pacific released at the same time are larger than a USRA Pacific but so are the prototypes. Erie was a local road to me but I am not a student of the road. Others will have to chime in.

Pete

The only model of an Erie pacific I am aware of, is the one done by Max Grey.   The was a brass import probably built by KTM as many MG and most USH.    I think it is a "heavy" USRA but heavily modified on the details.    The most promienat is a feedwater heater in front of the stack.     These show up at O Scale shows periodically.    As far as I know that was the only run of this prototype made.

It is a 2 rail loco, but since you do both, it might be of interest.

MTH made a K5 also

The Lionel version is longer and I added the Elesco feed water pump to the fireman’s side

Tom

Had a MG Erie K5 very nice model with the 6 wheel tender, added the correct Headlight casting and a set of spoked drivers [PRR k4s] as the model came with the Scullen drivers. Erie had both versions, its on its 4th owner now. I was a USH dealer back then.

Interesting about the MTH model K5 posted by Tom above. I had a Gilbert Flyer K5 as a boy and never knew the difference between a K4 and K5.  I want to get a new 'scale' pilot set for my Erie Pacific as Lionel rarely provides a decent set so they can run on 036/048 Fastrack. With selling these nice scale steamers it aggravates me they they don't come standard with or at least provide an optional  scale pilot with purchase. How many of us run them on 036? The MTH model looks so much better with just the little difference in size. My Lionel Mikado suffers the same deficiency. SO much 'air' around the undersized Lionel pilot in the photo above..

Also noticed that the new Legacy Dreyfuss still comes with less-than scale pilots...   Good job Lionel!    :-(

the Gilbert American Flyer K5s I have seen were based on the PRR K5 not the Erie engine.    PRR had 2 K5s and they looked like K4s bulked up on Steroids.    It was an experiment to see if they could additional power they wanted from a larger pacific.     the American Flyer Atlantic was based on a Reading loco I think.

I have heard the reason that Gilbert chose larger locos was to be able to fit the motors available at the time into the fireboxes.  

@prrjim posted:

The only model of an Erie pacific I am aware of, is the one done by Max Grey.   The was a brass import probably built by KTM as many MG and most USH.    I think it is a "heavy" USRA but heavily modified on the details.   

Williams (Samhongsa) offered a brass 3RO USRA Pacific back in the 80's, and it is an excellent representation (with a basic detail level) of the USRA Heavy Pacific. I do not recall Wms referring to it as Light or Heavy. The proportions are dead on, I'd say. The model came with the later-applied Delta trailing truck you see here; the original USRA-spec trailing truck was  a Cole built-up type.

A million years ago I decaled this one for the M&O (they had USRA Lights, not Heavies, but when I got this the 3RO loco selection was far thinner), and it actually has a TAS TMCC/sound upgrade. No cruise, not then. Fills the entire tender. Runs well, it's Korean. I added the headlight visor. I have a photo (can't post it) of one of the real Erie USRA Heavies, as delivered (before the Elescos and such), and, except for the truck, it looks pretty much like the Williams. Correct dome shapes and boiler proportions.

Juist about the only accurate O scale Erie passenger steam engine ever done in O scale was done by Max Gray way back when. Here is a pic of mine:

@jonnyspeed posted:

Juist about the only accurate O scale Erie passenger steam engine ever done in O scale was done by Max Gray way back when. Here is a pic of mine:

So like Pete says, what we think is an oversized Lionel in 3 rail, is actually pretty close in size!….your Max Gray looks beautiful, and very big!!

Pat

@prrjim posted:

the Gilbert American Flyer K5s I have seen were based on the PRR K5 not the Erie engine.    PRR had 2 K5s and they looked like K4s bulked up on Steroids.    It was an experiment to see if they could additional power they wanted from a larger pacific.     the American Flyer Atlantic was based on a Reading loco I think.

I have heard the reason that Gilbert chose larger locos was to be able to fit the motors available at the time into the fireboxes. 

My father collects Flyer S gauge and restored a K5 to like new condition.  Definitely a PRR prototype of a rare PRR locomotive, but such a well-executed model for the era with the design of the smoke unit. 

Likewise, the Atlantic is indeed based on the Reading prototype with the Wooten fire box.  If I were in S gauge, I would enjoy having both of those in my collection. 

Thank you everyone for the great info.  It sounds like one way or the other, a Pacific is the steam locomotive to pursue for an Erie passenger train.  I have a Williams Southern PS-4 that I had to replace the Delta and the lead truck on.  I'm hesitant to repaint it, but it does have the Elesco feedwater heater even it if is not recessed into the smokebox like the Erie prototype.  These do show up fairly well priced from time to time so that might be a nice budget option.  I've been looking for a project locomotive to learn how to solder brass anyway for the collection of details I've been secretly amassing.

My cars are 3-rail, but that doesn't mean much.  I swap wheel sets all the time so the Max Gray may be the one to track down one day when I finally get a two-rail layout in place.  I have seen Lionel ones online, but I am a little surprised at the cost.  They seem to be going for the $700 plus range for something I'd probably end up modifying anyway.  Still eBay is a funny place, so I'll keep my eyes open for a reasonably priced one.  I have an MTH CNJ 2-rail Pacific project that's floundered the last few years and an upgraded PS2 CNJ Blue Comet P47.  Won't be making those donors, but MTH does make a nice Heavy USRA model.

Overall, I have always been a fan of the Pacific over the Hudson so it will be a fun adventure to track down a locomotive.  I know that is heresy to the NYC people on here, but considering I grew up in what was PRR/CN J territory, the Pacific ruled while the Hudson "drooled"?    More likely the motive departments of the two above said roads drooled over the prospect of new power when the budget didn't allow it!

This has been great and I appreciate the info!

Prices are all over the map. I paid 350 for mine just last year. Train shows are better source these days.

Pete

@GG1 4877 posted:

Thank you everyone for the great info.  It sounds like one way or the other, a Pacific is the steam locomotive to pursue for an Erie passenger train.  I have a Williams Southern PS-4 that I had to replace the Delta and the lead truck on.  I'm hesitant to repaint it, but it does have the Elesco feedwater heater even it if is not recessed into the smokebox like the Erie prototype.  These do show up fairly well priced from time to time so that might be a nice budget option.  I've been looking for a project locomotive to learn how to solder brass anyway for the collection of details I've been secretly amassing.

My cars are 3-rail, but that doesn't mean much.  I swap wheel sets all the time so the Max Gray may be the one to track down one day when I finally get a two-rail layout in place.  I have seen Lionel ones online, but I am a little surprised at the cost.  They seem to be going for the $700 plus range for something I'd probably end up modifying anyway.  Still eBay is a funny place, so I'll keep my eyes open for a reasonably priced one.  I have an MTH CNJ 2-rail Pacific project that's floundered the last few years and an upgraded PS2 CNJ Blue Comet P47.  Won't be making those donors, but MTH does make a nice Heavy USRA model.

Overall, I have always been a fan of the Pacific over the Hudson so it will be a fun adventure to track down a locomotive.  I know that is heresy to the NYC people on here, but considering I grew up in what was PRR/CN J territory, the Pacific ruled while the Hudson "drooled"?    More likely the motive departments of the two above said roads drooled over the prospect of new power when the budget didn't allow it!

This has been great and I appreciate the info!

What did you ever do with that CNJ non Blue Vomit stuff?…that’d make a nice start for a kit bash!!….I think I have a tender shell close to the one in Johnnyspeeds’s reply….

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

What did you ever do with that CNJ non Blue Vomit stuff?…that’d make a nice start for a kit bash!!….I think I have a tender shell close to the one in Johnnyspeeds’s reply….

Pat

Pat,

Like most of my projects and likely the way this one will go for a while, that project is sitting on a shelf awaiting my attention.  I found a 2-rail tender for it at the Chicago O scale show two years ago.  Now I need to get a pilot, motor, valve gear, and Lord knows what else to finish it.  Oh yeah, some screws to hold it all together..... 

Not to mix work and fun, but I've got P42s on the brain this month and not P47s.  Exciting on another level as what I'm seeing out of design on that project will turn some heads for anyone who is thinking the other brand's are an accurate rendition of that much more modern passenger locomotive.  However, I won't say more because I don't want to get this thread deleted!

@Norton posted:

Prices are all over the map. I paid 350 for mine just last year. Train shows are better source these days.

Pete

That is in line with what I'd be happy to pay for one and then work on it from there starting with the pilot truck.  Train shows are not as common in AZ and east coast road equipment is even less common, but every now and then these kind of locomotives show up at my TCA Division Auctions.  Maybe I'll get lucky!

@GG1 4877 posted:

Pat,

Like most of my projects and likely the way this one will go for a while, that project is sitting on a shelf awaiting my attention.  I found a 2-rail tender for it at the Chicago O scale show two years ago.  Now I need to get a pilot, motor, valve gear, and Lord knows what else to finish it.  Oh yeah, some screws to hold it all together.....

Not to mix work and fun, but I've got P42s on the brain this month and not P47s.  Exciting on another level as what I'm seeing out of design on that project will turn some heads for anyone who is thinking the other brand's are an accurate rendition of that much more modern passenger locomotive.  However, I won't say more because I don't want to get this thread deleted!

Truth be told, …it was a loaded question!….I need the stock MTH tender shell that would’ve come behind that CNJ heavy, or from the blue vomit, or some of the other heavy Pacifics …..hence my inquiry …..🥸

Pat

Was very fortunate to have found mine for just $300. Where would I pick up a larger scale sized pilot wheel set for it that would be a 'drop in' fit?

Looking at the photo in Tom's post above with the MTH & Lionel models, the trailing truck seems rather small visually for the space around it. Would it be 'heresy' to put a small 4 wheel truck in there instead?  :-)

@jonnyspeed posted:

Juist about the only accurate O scale Erie passenger steam engine ever done in O scale was done by Max Gray way back when. Here is a pic of mine:

Nice find!!!

@c.sam posted:

Was very fortunate to have found mine for just $300. Where would I pick up a larger scale sized pilot wheel set for it that would be a 'drop in' fit?

Looking at the photo in Tom's post above with the MTH & Lionel models, the trailing truck seems rather small visually for the space around it. Would it be 'heresy' to put a small 4 wheel truck in there instead?  :-)

I make very nice ones, but sometimes they require mods to the pilot truck pivot hoop to navigate, also, your curves play a role in what’s allowable, and what’s not, …below is pic of a Kline Hudson pilot truck fitted with scale sized pilot wheels….contact via profile for details….( another shameless plug Johnathan! )

Pat

@c.sam posted:

Was very fortunate to have found mine for just $300. Where would I pick up a larger scale sized pilot wheel set for it that would be a 'drop in' fit?

Looking at the photo in Tom's post above with the MTH & Lionel models, the trailing truck seems rather small visually for the space around it. Would it be 'heresy' to put a small 4 wheel truck in there instead?  :-)

I purchased a Lionel Hodges trailing truck to replace the broken one on my Williams Southern PS4 and it does appear to be too small.  It was either that or a 2 rail brass one and I know the Lionel one would be an easy fix.  I figure it is better than replacing it with a Delta truck. 

I see how a more scale like pilot and lead truck would benefit this locomotive greatly.  Otherwise, it's got great lines.

Was surprised at how well she smokes for an older fan system.

K-Line made a nice looking Pacific!

I made a decision on my direction this week.  I purchased a very favorably priced Williams USRA Heavy Pacific in ATSF as a starting point for a kit bash project.  The Lionel ones just seem to sell for more than I'm interested in.  Photos when it arrives.  As is typical with Williams brass, it is devoid of a lot of detail which makes it a nice palatte to start with.  It will need a lot of detail parts, but not a lot of heavy modification to get the look I am going for.  While it won't be 100% accurate, it will be closer than the Lionel model, and I'll be happy with it.  It's also an opportunity to learn how to solder brass.  All my previous kit bash projects have been cast or plastic. 

Now for questions to the modification experts @Norton @harmonyards.  Are the Williams passenger locomotive drives and frames generic enough that I could use basket case Williams 5344 Hudson drivers to at least get closer to the Boxpox drivers found on the later K5s?  Would the Dreyfuss Hudson disc drivers be perhaps a better option? Are the Samhongsa built Weaver locomotives of the same basic drive train design?  Adding detail parts is easy for me, but mechanical mods are certainly not my specialty.  Also, what is a good source to replace the lead truck with more scale like wheels?

On the tender side, I have some work to do as well.  I might splice some brass into the center of the Williams tender and add 6 wheel trucks, or perhaps simply live with the standard tender and add more accurate 4 wheel trucks.

As is typical with me, I'll go down the rabbit hole on this and likely spend more in time and parts than just buying the Lionel version and living with it.  However, having something interesting and unique is hard to put a dollar value on.  I'm excited!

Jonathon, The construction is similar to two rail brass. Swapping drivers is not too bad especially if you are going three rail to two rail. Easier still if the replacements have a smaller axle diameter, more work if you have make sleeves to mount the drivers.

I am not a Santa Fe expert but Pat and @Lou1985 can give you better options for replacement drivers. I recall the SF ones are different than any NYC used.

Pete

That K5 class model that Johnnyspeed posted up sure looks like some odd drivers!…..any additional information on the driver manufacturer found on the real K5? …..did the Erie follow a practice similar to the Central proper? …..The Central had no issues playing musical drivers …especially towards the end of steam!…..anything goes!…in the case of the J class, as long as it was a driver set the same diameter as what’s on there….on they went,….mix spoke, Boxpok, Scullin, & Web Spoke, ……I seen pictures of one Hudson with a LFM driver set on one axle ……if you’re going for accuracy, and the drivers are an oddity, consider having “covers” 3D printed, and simply put them over the existing spoke set, ….maybe push come to shove, have a few thousands shaved off the spoke face side, so an overlay sits like it belongs ……

Pat

The K5 definitely evolved over time.  I've found photos with all spoked drivers, shorter tenders with 4-wheel trucks, and a few variations on trailing trucks.  I'm not going to overly be concerned with an exact match on the drivers, but something close would be fun to mimic.  "Close enough" drivers with proper 36" lead truck wheels will go a long way towards a convincing solution.  I'll probably leave the first driver as a spoked driver to stimulate conversation with anyone who asks.

A few prototype photos:

K5 - July 1947

One of my questions on this as I'm no expert on steam locomotive components, is what is the equipment on the pilot that is has the covers over the front in this image?  Also, what are the components named below the sand dome?  I'm sure I'll have a ton of additional questions as this is also an opportunity to learn much more about the specifics of a steam locomotive for future projects.  Finally, does anyone have a link to a decent back head photo?  I'd love to add the equipment there as well such as the stoker, gauges, and various controls.

A Pinterest Image

View with a 4 axle tender

In this image, the tender trucks almost look like Commonwealth express trucks.  I need to research a better side view.  It also dawned on me today, that "Erie Power" is in my library of books and now I finally have a use for it.

I have the Elesco feedwater heater on the way along with a few other detail parts to start this project.  Also, what is the name of the   Hopefully I can actually work on it as opposed to collecting parts for it like I have on a few other projects!

I would love to find a Max Gray one and be done with it, but at the same time, I do need to learn a few new modeling skills so hopefully I'll update this thread in time.  A quick search shows that the HO Max Gray model is pretty common.  The O scale one?  Not so much so.

@GG1 4877 posted:

The K5 definitely evolved over time.  I've found photos with all spoked drivers, shorter tenders with 4-wheel trucks, and a few variations on trailing trucks.  I'm not going to overly be concerned with an exact match on the drivers, but something close would be fun to mimic.  "Close enough" drivers with proper 36" lead truck wheels will go a long way towards a convincing solution.  I'll probably leave the first driver as a spoked driver to stimulate conversation with anyone who asks.

A few prototype photos:

K5 - July 1947

One of my questions on this as I'm no expert on steam locomotive components, is what is the equipment on the pilot that is has the covers over the front in this image?  Also, what are the components named below the sand dome?  I'm sure I'll have a ton of additional questions as this is also an opportunity to learn much more about the specifics of a steam locomotive for future projects.  Finally, does anyone have a link to a decent back head photo?  I'd love to add the equipment there as well such as the stoker, gauges, and various controls.

A Pinterest Image

View with a 4 axle tender

In this image, the tender trucks almost look like Commonwealth express trucks.  I need to research a better side view.  It also dawned on me today, that "Erie Power" is in my library of books and now I finally have a use for it.

I have the Elesco feedwater heater on the way along with a few other detail parts to start this project.  Also, what is the name of the   Hopefully I can actually work on it as opposed to collecting parts for it like I have on a few other projects!

I would love to find a Max Gray one and be done with it, but at the same time, I do need to learn a few new modeling skills so hopefully I'll update this thread in time.  A quick search shows that the HO Max Gray model is pretty common.  The O scale one?  Not so much so.

what is the equipment on the pilot that is has the covers over the front in this image

Those are the compressors, with shields in front of them to protect the parts from road debris.

Also, what are the components named below the sand dome

I can’t clear the picture up enough to zoom in, but they look like the sanding valves??.

Pat

I think you’d be really surprised with a 3D print overlay for those drivers,……far, far, less work than swapping out drivers,…..If you need the faces skimmed down to accept such a “cover” that’s when you contact me,….😁

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

I think you’d be really surprised with a 3D print overlay for those drivers,……far, far, less work than swapping out drivers,…..If you need the faces skimmed down to accept such a “cover” that’s when you contact me,….😁

Pat

Sounds like a plan.  3D printing is another realm I want to get educated in, but real life keeps getting in the way!

The 1947 image shows a K5a and the equipment on the pilot is the air compressors. This engine would have been used on the long distance thru-line trains.

The items below the sand dome would be the actuating gear for the pneumatic sanders. There were many types of devices made by numerous manufacturers that had the same function , but looked different, design wise.

The color photo of the 2935 was taken at Waldwick, NJ. It was being used in commuter service when this photo was taken. It is a K5A with two boxpox driving axles and front mounted air compressors. The Elesco feed water heater tank rounds out the look. The feedwater pump is located on the side.

Each engine evolved over the years with the addition of improved apparatus and changed the looks of the engines gradually over the years. Location of compressors changed, feed water heaters were added and so forth.

A tricky situation with getting all the various details correct for a certain engine at a certain point in it’s career…

Lionel K5 that was missing the feedwater heater…I added that…

MTH K5 with more correct details…

PS, there is a soft cover book about Erie USRA heavy Pacifics…

ERIE USRA HEAVY PACIFICS LOCOMOTIVE STUDY #1 By D. G Biernacki

on eBay …