Problem with Williams True Blast Plus and ERR Sound Converter

Have you tried reversing the leads going from the sound converter into the True Blast Plus?

Why would you add a resistor at the speaker when the True Blast Plus card already has an on-board potentiometer to directly adjust sound volume?

Wouldn't the prime mover get stuck ramped up to full throttle in a command environment with 18 volts? Others who have made this upgrade installed an ERR Sound Commander so that the RPM's can function correctly.

I'll admit the sounds from the True Blast Plus card are great, but I just haven't found a good method to integrate that into the command environment. Hopefully you have!

Re-label the horn and bell buttons on Cab1?   

I've thought about reversing the True Blast leads from the Sound Converter, but didn't want to damage the True Blast board as getting spares from WBB is like pulling teeth.

Nicholas Smith, Trainworld & Marios all sell the Williams boards.

And reversing the power leads to your track should straighten out the horn & bell sounds.

@Phil McCaig posted:

Nicholas Smith, Trainworld & Marios all sell the Williams boards.

And reversing the power leads to your track should straighten out the horn & bell sounds.

No, it won't.  He's running TMCC, he's not looking at the DC offset on the tracks.

@modeltrainsparts posted:

I've thought about reversing the True Blast leads from the Sound Converter, but didn't want to damage the True Blast board as getting spares from WBB is like pulling teeth.

You need to swap the two leads coming from the Sound Converter, you have them backwards.

Thanks, John; that's what i was thinking; hopefully it won't damage the True Blast board. As an aside, i only wish that ERR had continued with the Sound Converter and the Cruise Lite; they're great for small projects.

All the power for the sound board goes through the two TO-220 regulators to power the sound board.  What you describe is the sound board getting the negative offset for the bell when you hit the horn, that's the dead giveaway.  You won't cook the board if you make sure it's connected to NOTHING but the speaker and the Sound Converter.

FWIW, the software for the sound converter was released under the GNU license and I have it.  I've even tweaked it to fix the ditch light operation from the optional LED outputs.  Since we also have a complete schematic of the sound converter if some energetic soul wanted to build the boards, we could reincarnate the sound converter.

John, Thanks for the info. I'm no longer an energetic soul at his stage of life. I even stopped doing ERR conversions for customers (well, except for a local hobby shop that is primarily HO and sends me one or two a year to do, and those had better be easy ones!) In fact this has been the first I've been back to the train room since last March.

For those of you out there with wives that want to do a kitchen remodel -- one word -- Don't! It all started the last weekend in June 2020 with the purchase of a new refrigerator and dishwasher - a refrigerator that has yet to arrive. Anyway the down to the studs kitchen project that began mid- Sept. of last year wasn't finished until the week between Christmas and New Years. So much for a four - six week project.

Now at long last back to the train room.

@modeltrainsparts posted:

I have a small problem having finished installing a Cruise Commander Lite, an ERR Sound Converter in a Williams scale 44 ton switcher with Williams True Blast Plus sound to retain the sound of the CAT diesel in the 44 tonner which I was able to quiet it down a little by adding a resistor in one of the speaker leads. Yes, it was an extremely tight fit! The only problem i'm having with this whole project is when pressing the bell button on the Cab1, the horn sounds, and when pressing the horn button on the Cab1, the bell sounds; of course pressing the horn button again turns the bell off. Has anyone done this installation? Any ideas on how to correct this little problem?

I was thinking about putting one in my Williams 44-tonner but didn't think I could retain the sounds. Are there instructions for installing this board and retaining the sounds?

Well, you "kinda" retain the sounds.  The bad news is, the prime mover will be running at full RPM all the time as it isn't controlled by the TMCC data like the whistle/bell DC offsets are.  The Sound Converter board was really for simple horn(whistle)/bell boards, not for the full conventional sounds.

Matt, You need two major components: the ERR Cruise Commander Lite (now discontinued and sometimes hard to find), and the ERR Sound Converter (also discontinued - see GRJ's comment about this). I also added a resistor in one of the speaker wires to quiet down the motor sounds which were running at full RPM, and a thermal circuit breaker to the CC Lite to prevent overloading the CC Lite by pulling too many cars (per GRJ's suggestionj). These last 2 items are not mandatory and cost pennies from either Mouser or Digi Key. Wiring the ERR Sound Converter: As to wiring the Sound Converter to the Cruise Lite the instructions are to be found somewhere on this Forum or i can dig them out of my file if you can't find them - as i recall very simple. To wire the Sound Converter to to the True Blast Plus it's only two wires which were originally from the original WBB reversing unit to the TB+ and are now wired to the ERR Snd. Convtr. If you get into this project feel free to contact me via email  posted in my profile. Their may be other workarounds to this project that i'm not aware of, but i had the ERR stuff in inventory. Also there's not much room inside the 44 tonner.

@modeltrainsparts posted:

Matt, You need two major components: the ERR Cruise Commander Lite (now discontinued and sometimes hard to find), and the ERR Sound Converter (also discontinued - see GRJ's comment about this). I also added a resistor in one of the speaker wires to quiet down the motor sounds which were running at full RPM, and a thermal circuit breaker to the CC Lite to prevent overloading the CC Lite by pulling too many cars (per GRJ's suggestionj). These last 2 items are not mandatory and cost pennies from either Mouser or Digi Key. Wiring the ERR Sound Converter: As to wiring the Sound Converter to the Cruise Lite the instructions are to be found somewhere on this Forum or i can dig them out of my file if you can't find them - as i recall very simple. To wire the Sound Converter to to the True Blast Plus it's only two wires which were originally from the original WBB reversing unit to the TB+ and are now wired to the ERR Snd. Convtr. If you get into this project feel free to contact me via email  posted in my profile. Their may be other workarounds to this project that i'm not aware of, but i had the ERR stuff in inventory. Also there's not much room inside the 44 tonner.

Regarding the thermal circuit breaker (could be useful for one of my conversions).  Could you elaborate, where you mounted it in relation to the board it's protecting, and temp trigger level, and self-resetting?

My Pride Lines City of Denver has ERRCo TMCC conversion in A unit, driving A and B unit open frame AC motors.  I have a just-right 12v biscuit fan at the rear of the A unit, pulling cool air over the boards, which helps, but it still gets balky after maybe 15 minutes of running and likes a rest to cool down.  Perhaps I should be protecting those boards with the breaker as you suggest.

Thanks for this, Don

I think I'd start with your engine maintaining the motors.  Also, the AC Commander is good for a maximum of two motors, if you are trying to drive more than that, no fan or breaker is going to help, you need to add another AC Commander.  I'd also consider checking the current draw of the whole set to see where you stand.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I think I'd start with your engine maintaining the motors.  Also, the AC Commander is good for a maximum of two motors, if you are trying to drive more than that, no fan or breaker is going to help, you need to add another AC Commander.  I'd also consider checking the current draw of the whole set to see where you stand.

Thanks, GRJ.  Have done those things, draw is not that high for the 2 motors.  I  think it's just the relatively tight space.  Biscuit fan definitely helped, and allows operation for all reasonable "railroad" needs; just not a train you run for hours to entertain guests.

Not a very big problem, just thinking it might be wise to have things stop before it gets to the stage of not wanting to respond to commands.  This train has had years of "development work," so I'm reasonably confident about this.  Don't relish, or have a good place for, adding another board for that first B unit.  The second B has its own board back in the RPO/baggage car behind it.  Problem is not big enough for adding a board to solve it.

How "not too high" is the current draw for the motors under a modest load?

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

How "not too high" is the current draw for the motors under a modest load?

Only about 4-5 amps

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

How "not too high" is the current draw for the motors under a modest load?

PS one reason is lighting is LEDs, no filaments, incl headlight, so boards and 2 motors (and on small biscuit fan) is all there is otherwise.

@cnwdon posted:

Only about 4-5 amps

Well, 4-5 amps is TOO MUCH, at least IMO.   I have my dual Pulmore motored Phantom, and it pulls a max of about 2.5 amps running at various speeds, it has the ERR AC Commander installed.  Measured current with five cars never exceeds 3 amps.  I've never had any heat or stalling issues with that arrangement.  If I see 4-5 amps, I start to get concerned.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Well, 4-5 amps is TOO MUCH, at least IMO.   I have my dual Pulmore motored Phantom, and it pulls a max of about 2.5 amps running at various speeds, it has the ERR AC Commander installed.  Measured current with five cars never exceeds 3 amps.  I've never had any heat or stalling issues with that arrangement.  If I see 4-5 amps, I start to get concerned.

So the "up to 8 amp motor load" rating is less important than the heat generated long before that?

8 amps is an absolute maximum peak rating, and it won't take that for more than a brief period before you release the magic smoke.  My benchmark for a dual-Pulmore motored locomotive is really around a peak of three amps with a light load.  If it's pulling more than that, I start thinking of maintenance of the motors, check/replace the brushes, clean the commutator, lub the motor bearings and gears, etc.

One easy test, if after some extended running the motors are getting hot, something is wrong.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

8 amps is an absolute maximum peak rating, and it won't take that for more than a brief period before you release the magic smoke.  My benchmark for a dual-Pulmore motored locomotive is really around a peak of three amps with a light load.  If it's pulling more than that, I start thinking of maintenance of the motors, check/replace the brushes, clean the commutator, lub the motor bearings and gears, etc.

One easy test, if after some extended running the motors are getting hot, something is wrong.

Thanks for the detailed information. Both motors recently rebuilt by The Motor Doctor, not running hot.  The warmth comes from the rear part of the A unit where command boards live, a tight space,  hence the added fan at rear of A unit, and that area does not get uncomfortably warm really.  I'll recheck the current draw and keep the possibility of adding a set of boards for the first B unit in mind.  I would have to wire them from the RPO/baggage car through the second B unit's "attic" to reach the motor of the first B.  At present the problem isn't quite big enough to prompt the amount of effort that would entail.  I really helps to add  your experience with practical current limits.

The best solution long term will be to limit run time to the "trip" from the  C&NW Chicago Passenger Terminal to West Chicago and into staging during operating sessions, and avoid longer "railfan" running.  With your advice, will start limiting run time to something less than long enough for any misbehavior to start.  The big deal is having this particular CNW/UP streamliner as part of the operation, since the original 1936 CoD trainsets were the only ones refurbished (late 1940s) and kept in service all the way to early 1953, when ordinary E's and fleet passenger equipment took over and made the trains "just another streamliner".   I was 3 years old at the time, wish I could have memories of these guys passing two blocks from our house in Wheaton IL at the time.   If there's another such (real) tinplate streamliner running with a TMCC conversion, would love to hear from the owner/operator!  Photo at "West Chicago" is from before addition of second B unit with boards in RPO section, and better "train radio" style antennas on A and RPO painted Leaf Brown.

Thanks again, GRJ, for more of your sage advice.