PRR Panhandle 2.0

@Mark Boyce posted:

George, I think getting the proportions close is all a modeler needs to do, especially with such large structures.

You are right, the originals and even copies may have all been destroyed.  Do you know what company(s) designed these structures?

Mark, I do not.  It's quite possible they were home-made.  I will have to research that.

George

George, that’s a good point.  I had an uncle who worked at the Edgar Thompson Works as an engineer after he got back from Europe in WWII.  He designed all kinds of additions/improvements.  He was laid off in a huge downsizing when I was in high school, 1970.  He found a job as an engineer at Davy McKee in Cleveland suburbs and designed steel mills for other companies.  Home brewed vs off the shelf.

@Mark Boyce posted:

George, that’s a good point.  I had an uncle who worked at the Edgar Thompson Works as an engineer after he got back from Europe in WWII.  He designed all kinds of additions/improvements.  He was laid off in a huge downsizing when I was in high school, 1970.  He found a job as an engineer at Davy McKee in Cleveland suburbs and designed steel mills for other companies.  Home brewed vs off the shelf.

A number of these buildings all shared that long ventilator and vertical channel siding.  I think the Blooming Mill dates from 1920.  The Open Hearth, in its initial form, might be that old as well.  Other structures like the Open Hearth Supply Shed, the Shell Factory / Warehouse all looked very similar.

Here's the Open Hearth.

And the Open Hearth (left) and supply shed (right).

George

Updated 3/7/2024:

I have been hard at work determining the relationship between roads and buildings in North Weirton as they existed in the early 1950s.  The accuracy of my track plan has strayed a little, so I decided to make a full size mock-up of the area and see what actually will fit and look right.

In this photo we are looking north.  The pink paper at the far left is Main Street north of the intersection of Main Street, County Road (in yellow) and Pennsylvania Avenue (brown).  The purple / blue paper is Main Street south of the intersection.  The yard sticks depict its movement further south.  The green paper is the footprint of the Mill Administration Building (MAB).

The yard sticks roughly indicate the boundaries of the street, which will rise over the tracks to make Crawford's Crossing.  Between the near yardstick and the tracks will go a greatly foreshortened Quality Control Lab (if I can figure out how to make that happen).

Below are the 2 tracks bridged by Crawford's Crossing.  The section of road between the two mills is meant to be elevated.  I have it on the bench top strictly to indicate its rough position.

Finally, here's a look towards the mills.  And yes, WV Route 2 (aka Main Street) does did actually pass down the middle of the mill complex (there's not much mill left these days. )

I've still got a lot of thinking to do about how this will actually become reality, but it's a start.

More when I know it. 

George

Updated 3/9/2024:

Spent some time today researching buildings found along both sides of Main Street in Weirton in the 1950s.  Did a bunch of "guesstimating" as to dimensions by counting bricks.  I found out that glass block in the 1950s was (typically) 8" x 8".  Did you know you can buy vintage glass block?  Who knew?

Weirton Steel's Quality Control Lab was an art-deco building with fashionable glyphs on its outer walls and two story glass block windows.  Quite striking, actually.  The photo is courtesy of the Weirton Area Museum and Cultural Center.

NOTE:  photo removed due to OGR copyright policy not being followed per TOS.

I'm currently working on how to selectively compress this structure to make it fit in the available space while retaining its unique flavor.

More when I know it. 

George

Updated 3/11/2024:

Work today focused on:

• Doing more research on the geometry of the intersection of Main Street, County Road, and Pennsylvania Avenue as it looked in 1950s Weirton, WV.  I have a photo or two of a Sanborn map that may help.  I'm going to look at the maps themselves tomorrow.
• Track bus wiring for Power Districts 3, 5, and 7.  We are making some progress here re-connecting existing feeders to buses that were relocated or removed when we put in the Tortoise switch machines.  I hope to finish this work before the end of the week, including connecting the tracks of Weirton Junction (Power District #6).

More when I know it. 

George

Updated 3/13/2024:

• Did get a look at the Sanborn maps for Weirton - very instructive.  Here is the Google view of the area in question.
• Today, I finished connecting all track feeder pairs to the bus wires for Power District #8 (Staging Area).  I had only 1 feeder pair that was outstanding;  the vast majority of the Staging Area was wired several years ago.
• Also completed connecting all track feeder pairs for Power District #7 (Weirton Steel).  There were 18 pairs.
• Began work on Power District #5 (Weirton).  Four of the 15 pairs are connected.
• Ordered the Plastruct glass block styrene sheet at Hobby Express.
• Joined the Jefferson County (Ohio) Historical Society - they have some great photos.
• Registered for the PRRT&HS Annual Meeting in Altoona in May.

More when I know it. 

George

Updated 3/14/2024:

Work continued today on Power District #5.  We are working our way from higher to lower number feeder pairs.  On the left is 5.10, with 5.11 further away and 5.12 furthest from the camera.

Power District #5 is the Weirton peninsula and is color coded Green.  I place small zip-ties of that color every so often.

These standoffs help keep the wiring neat(er).

I am just about to wire 5.06, which is at the entrance to Weirton Junction Yard.  That's where I ended today's effort.

More when I know it. 

George

Updated 3/15/2024:

There were no assassinations this Ides of March, but we did get Power District #5 (Weirton) completed.  All 15 feeder pairs are connected to the bus.  We did have one mishap (a dead short) due to incorrect wiring, but a fast acting fuse sacrificed itself and all is well.

First, the quick and the dead (fuses).

Here is a shot of Power District #5 (Weirton).  In the foreground is part of Power District #6 (Weirton Junction), which is color-coded white.

Here is more of Power District #6 as we move east towards the entrance to the Weirton Junction Yard.

More when I know it. 

George

Sanborn maps are a national treasure. They're a great window to the past.

Is Jefferson county on the Ohio side of the river across from Weirton?

@BillYo414 posted:

Sanborn maps are a national treasure. They're a great window to the past.

Is Jefferson county on the Ohio side of the river across from Weirton?

Bill,

Yes, Jefferson County is opposite Weirton.  Steubenville is the county seat.

George

Updated 3/16/2024:

We've got power to District #5 (Weirton)!

I'm further along on Power District #6 (Weirton Junction Yard), but ran out of spade connectors.

More when I know it. 

George

Moving right along!

Updated 3/18/2024:

• Went over the layout identifying all the locations for PRR signals and determining how many I still need.  These signals will get milepost numbers mounted to them.  Several years ago, @AlanH (thank you again!) made some holders for these mileposts that will fit the signal mast.  I will print very small numbers for them.
• I spent some time examining the Panhandle track plans in order to determine what those mileposts should say.  I hope to use these mileposts during operating sessions (not sure exactly how yet).
• Yesterday, a friend and member of the division gave me an example of a 3D railing he made for me.  The railing is for the Crawford's Crossing highway overpass.

More when I know it. 

George

George, signals with mile markers are not absolute signals.  In other words, a signal without a mile marker that displays a STOP aspect means that the train should stop and wait for the signal to display a less restrictive aspect.  However, a signal with a mile marker that displays a STOP aspect means that the train should stop and proceed immediately at restricted speed.

On a model railroad, where things tend to be close together, I prefer trains to stop and wait at STOP signals.  None of my signals have mile markers.

@Bob posted:

George, signals with mile markers are not absolute signals.  In other words, a signal without a mile marker that displays a STOP aspect means that the train should stop and wait for the signal to display a less restrictive aspect.  However, a signal with a mile marker that displays a STOP aspect means that the train should stop and proceed immediately at restricted speed.

On a model railroad, where things tend to be close together, I prefer trains to stop and wait at STOP signals.  None of my signals have mile markers.

Thank you Bob!  Very useful information. And based on that, I think I will can the mile markers.  Will be less work, too.

George

Updated 3/19/2024:

• Spent some time under the layout cleaning up labeling.  Below is an example of a bus label for Power District #6 (Weirton Junction).  It is color-coded (using zip-ties) white.  The bus uses 12 awg red and black wire to carry 18VAC.
  
• I also cleaned up some of the power distribution panel to reflect some changes in direction.  I left the Command Base and the 3 DZ-2001s (although only the 3rd is being used - see the white signal wire?) in place.  The terminal block above the DZ-2001s holds the Signal Bus 1 (at the left), Signal Bus 2 (in the middle), and Switch Bus 3 (at the far right).  Signal Buses 1 & 2 will light all DZ-1060 PRR position light signals, the DZ-1010 and DZ-1020 highway crossing devices, and the MTH 30-11030 PRR signal bridges.  These are everywhere except the Staging Area.
  

More when I know it. 

George

Very nice labeling!  The larger the project is, the more necessary it becomes.

Solid. This makes me think of how I need to step up my labeling as I go. I've been very lazy about it since the beginning but it's not too late to get in the groove.

Updated 3/20/2024:

Thanks @Mark Boyce and @BillYo414 !!

The clean-up of the power distribution panel continues!  Power supplies are now mounted on the board (L to R):

• 5 VDC for accessories (I don't recall what what will need this)
• 12 VDC for accessories and lights
• 12 VDC for Tortoise Buses 1 & 2

I have some 3 VDC wall-warts to run my scratch-built lighted utility poles, but these be plugged into auxiliary power strips located near their relevant cities.

More when I know it.

George

Updated 3/22/2024:

In an attempt to keep moving, I changed gears again today and focused on the Tortoise switch machine effort.  The grouping of toggle switches into "towers" had me thinking about how I will mount these into the fascia.  Here are the groupings:

• Weirton Steel Yard Tower will control switches 9, 10, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 32, 32, 35 and 36.
• Weirton Junction Tower (WC) will control switches 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7.
• QN Tower (QN) will control switches 1, 2, 37, 38, 41, 42

By wiring with this schematic, I can group the toggles at the fascia and feed them from a pair of terminal blocks.  The longer wire runs to the Tortoise's edge connector will come from the middle terminals of the DPDT.

As a result, I placed orders for several larger terminal blocks as well as 100' spools of green and white 22 awg stranded wire.  I also picked up some clear, thin Evergreen styrene that will go over the maps put on the fascia control boards at each tower.

More when I know it.

George

George, thanks for the update. I’m interested in how you control your switch machines from the fascia. I plan to have this option on my layout expansion. I am not to that point yet, but wondering if you will have both ability to control switches from a remote or app AND from the fascia controls. I’m trying to work through this scenario in my mind. I will be watching your progress! Take care.

Mike

@LT1Poncho posted:

George, thanks for the update. I’m interested in how you control your switch machines from the fascia. I plan to have this option on my layout expansion. I am not to that point yet, but wondering if you will have both ability to control switches from a remote or app AND from the fascia controls. I’m trying to work through this scenario in my mind. I will be watching your progress! Take care.

Mike

Mike, I can answer your question immediately.  The decision to change from DZ-2500 switch machines to Tortoises has several implications.  The DZ-2500s did permit both push-button (from fascia) and CAB-1 remote control of turnouts.  And all 12 turnouts in the Staging Area are wired that way (use DZ-2500s and DZ-2502 push buttons).  But they are also within easy reach of the Staging Area operator (a person who would be positioned in that space exchange steel loads for empties (and vice versa) and make up / break up trains.  That person can also push the button on top of the DZ-2500 as a last resort.  In the future, I can always replace any problem children with hand throws.  I do not plan to put Tortoise machines in the Staging Area - too much work at this point in time.

As to the rest of the layout that has turnouts - Weirton Steel Yard (Power District #7), Weirton Junction (Power District #6), Weirton (Power District #5), and Steubenville (Power District #2) - those will all use Tortoises.  And all of those will be controlled strictly from their "towers" (a logical grouping of toggles at several places on the fascia).  And if I'm just "loop running", I flip the toggles to favor the mainline and just let the trains run.  There's enough space on the mainline to run 2-3 trains (at steady state) without fear of collisions.  Panhandle 1 was capable of running 4 engines (light) simultaneously although it took some constant minor adjustments to prevent rear-endings.

Just in my short time of running trains (on both Panhandle 1 and here), I have found there is not enough time to make the 3-4-5 button pushes to throw switches ahead of a moving locomotive.  It also requires the engineer to take their focus off the train and concentrate on the CAB-1 button pressing.  I have come to the opinion that the remote control of switches really doesn't bring that much to the table (at least for me).  Other's might differ on that, but to each his/her own.  I don't think losing remote control of switches is much of a sacrifice.  In fact, serving as tower operator in an operating session and communicating with engineers might actually be more fun!  I don't expect to go full "dispatcher mode" with headsets, but engineers will need to obey signals (activated by the Tortoises) and at least talk to tower operators.  The exact nature of all this is still TBD, but not technically daunting.

Does that help?

George

I setup my DZ1000s for both push button and remote control using DCS AIUs.  I can hit the push buttons much faster than fiddling with the remote, so if I do another layout, I won’t bother with remote control from any handheld device.

George and Mark, I 1000% agree with your opinions I find with myself or my son running trains together, one of us is always walking around the current layout as trains run, and that is why I want to have fascia buttons. Which I don’t have now. Only DCS remote actuation, which I have gotten good at. My switches are routed meaning one touch will throw what’s needed for a change in train route. Also, there are time that I’ll go down by myself and just sit at the engineers position where the led switch and occupation boards are located, and I may not get up and walk around. So I just want to have “options” plus I’m crazy and enjoy the wiring challenges. Lol
Thanks for taking time to respond! Let’s me know what’s possible with the different machines!

Mike

Updated 3/23/2024:

• The 10-12 gauge fork connectors arrived today so I connected up the track in Power District #6 (Weirton Junction).
• Enlisted my wife to help design the layout skirting and make it work with the fascia.
• I am working on laying out the control panels for the towers.  Still some decisions to make there.

More when I know it. 

George

Updated 3/24/2024:

• The terminal blocks for the backs of the tower fascia panels arrived today along with some more fork connectors.
• Still pondering the best way to make the track plans for the front of the tower fascia panels.
• Installed 3 of the DZ-1060 PRR 7-light position signals.  Two of the three will be driven by the occupancy of the track block beyond them.

This signal will indicate occupancy of the Empties / Load track, the majority of which is behind the Staging divider.

This signal will be driven by the position of Switch No. 3.  If the turnout is thrown for Weirton Junction (a trailing point switch), it will indicate STOP.  Otherwise, it shows CLEAR.

This signal will indicate STOP when the block ahead is occupied.  Here I am testing its placement and clearance with an 18" passenger car (actually a B70).  When installed, the fascia will extend about 1" above the bench top.

More when I know it. 

George

@G3750 posted:

Updated 3/23/2024:

• Enlisted my wife to help design the layout skirting and make it work with the fascia.

More when I know it. 

George

George, the wife gave me a hand as well...

Her weapon of choice... 1910 Singer Model 66 'Red Eye'.

Updated 3/31/2024:

• Panel design for the towers is proceeding.  Drawings of the switch and LED locations have been made.  I am testing them out for practicality.
• I am working on PRR style signs (tower names) to add to the above switch panels drawings.
• I ran green/white wire pairs for Switch Bus #2 (for the Tortoises) to the vicinity of the WSX Yard and the Weirton Junction Yard.  These will connect to terminal blocks on the backs of the panels and thus to toggle switches.  The bus originates at the power distribution panel (12VDC power supply).
• Also ran the Tortoise green/white pair for Switch Bus #1 under the bridge to the Steubenville side of the layout.  That's a future installation, but at least it's now connected to the 12VDC power supply.

More when I know it.

George

George, I love the nostalgia of the 7 light PRR signals and will be only using them on my expansion. Wondering if you will have be using any double headed PRR signals?? Thanks for sharing!

Mike

@LT1Poncho posted:

George, I love the nostalgia of the 7 light PRR signals and will be only using them on my expansion. Wondering if you will have be using any double headed PRR signals?? Thanks for sharing!

Mike

Mike, I actually do have a spot for one of those.  Unfortunately, while Z-Stuff makes a doubled headed signal (DZ-1060V-2), its diagonal slant is in the wrong direction for Rule 290 below.  By the way, direction of mainline travel is left to right on the track plan.  The red arrow indicates the mainline.

As a result, I am having a custom signal made for me.  It will be installed at MP32.0.

George

@G3750 posted:

Mike, I actually do have a spot for one of those.  Unfortunately, while Z-Stuff makes a doubled headed signal (DZ-1060V-2), its diagonal slant is in the wrong direction for Rule 290 below.  By the way, direction of mainline travel is left to right on the track plan.  The red arrow indicates the mainline.

As a result, I am having a custom signal made for me.  It will be installed at MP32.0.

George

George, I have learned something about these signals today. Now I need to test the few I have already bought and make sure they will work properly! Thanks!

Mike

Updated 4/3/2024:

• The WSX Yard tower panel is at Staples being laminated.
• Picked up soldering gear, 3mm LEDs (green), and their black plastic holders from Hobby Express.
• Wired another DZ-1060 7-light PRR signal and one of the MTH Yard tower floodlights.  The other is installed, but I haven't run power to it yet.

More when I know it.

George

George, I’ll look forward to seeing the WSX panel when it gets back from Staples.  Hobby Express comes to the rescue!

Updated 4/5/2024:

• Installed another DZ-1060 PRR signal at the end of the Weirton peninsula.
• While there, I discovered that the DZ-1011 sensors I had installed for the DZ-1020 cross-bucks wouldn't clear the overhang of my test 18" baggage car.  Oops!    I wanted to move them back away from the track, but discovered (per the instruction and user experience) that reliable operation couldn't be guaranteed.  With a little help my friends (including Dennis Zander), we are going to try the DZ-1070 sensor.
• It's looking like York train money is going to go for signals and sensors. 

More when I know it. 

George

George, you must be Dennis Zander’s best customer or he is your best friend. 😉

@G3750 posted:

Updated 4/5/2024:

• Installed another DZ-1060 PRR signal at the end of the Weirton peninsula.
• While there, I discovered that the DZ-1011 sensors I had installed for the DZ-1020 cross-bucks wouldn't clear the overhang of my test 18" baggage car.  Oops!    I wanted to move them back away from the track, but discovered (per the instruction and user experience) that reliable operation couldn't be guaranteed.  With a little help my friends (including Dennis Zander), we are going to try the DZ-1070 sensor.
• It's looking like York train money is going to go for signals and sensors.

More when I know it. 

George

Have fun signal poaching in York George! You’re definitely gonna need it! (PS: see if you can sneak some cars home too )

Updated 4/10/2024:

Last few days have been about the starting and stopping of various small projects.  I continue to work on a number of things, trying to move ahead.  I just haven't been making a ton of progress.  Here is some forward movement, though:

• Laid out the tower panel for the Weirton Steel Yard.  Staples came through with the lamination.  The blue circles are toggle switch locations.  The small green or yellow circles are 3mm LED locations.

• Found a dead short in Power District #7.  No damage, as a fast-acting fuse sacrificed itself.  Turns out I had made a wiring error under the layout (in the dim light).
• The PRRT&HS came out with a fabulous new book on the Panhandle.  I'm over the moon with the sections on Weirton and Steubenville.  Like the majority of stuff I've seen from the society, it's well researched.

• Have been working on the updated Open Hearth presentation for Saturday's Division 2 Model Railroad Jamboree (check out the post in the Announcements sub-forum).
• Speaking of the Open Hearth, I put together a photo-op.  WSX #208, an Alco S-2, is waiting (note signal in foreground) to lead empty torpedo cars back to the blast furnaces for more pig iron.  The switcher can't proceed until that signal on the Staging Area entry track shows STOP.

More when I know it. 

George

The panel looks very nice.  What are it’s overall dimensions?

Oh, wow!  The jamboree is this Saturday.  I had better not forget.  😄  It’s on my calendar!

@Mark Boyce posted:

The panel looks very nice.  What are it’s overall dimensions?

Oh, wow!  The jamboree is this Saturday.  I had better not forget.  😄  It’s on my calendar!

12.75" x 9.25".

Please don't forget.

George