Scale Polar Express Lionel cars - Santa is NOT happy!

Ordered all 6 cars. 4 of the 6 have the exact same issue. The separately applied leaf spring is also a problem on a couple of the cars as well. Check them ALL out beforehand!!!

Perfect title!

I had somewhat similar experience. My list.... 5 cars, 2 were fine. 1st one had one loose screw , loose bearing cap, loose figure, 2nd car had loose screw and loose bearing cap, 3rd car had 3 loose bearing caps.  

When the lit up, the green tint of window plastic looks different on the observation car than the rest of the cars.

I have a good amount of Lionel stuff, this is the first time I had issues like this.

It is unfortunate, otherwise the cars are nice. The electric buffer/ flicker free feature is a nice touch. I dont think other cars had this feature.

Has Lionel’s QC hit rock bottom.... or can it can it dip farther?

SantaFeJim posted:

Has Lionel’s QC hit rock bottom.... or can it can it dip farther?

There seems to have been an awful lot of defective items this year.  Hard to believe QC even exists.  It sure puts a burden on the dealers to have to handle this mess all the time.

This can't be!!!..........

Howard Hitchcock stated on his last interview with Notch 6 that he had a QA team in place!!!!

Somewhere Mike Reagan is shaking his head.

Lionel's service dept must be working a lot of overtime.

I haven't got mine yet but when they come in they better be right. If not they will be returned and I want a refund. I hope that this is not the case.

Glad I bought the first run.

On to the new catalog and new preorders!!

When you go to the store, open boxes to check before you leave. It sounds like Lionel QC isn't doing what they are supposed to be doing. Look at the Legacy GG 1's it seems like they had a lot of problems with those too.

Your problems sound familiar; must be the same factory.  In October 2015, I went on a hunt looking to buy heavy polar express cars for my Pere Marquette loco.  Took a few months of searching but found 7 new ones from various dealers located in the East, one from here, one from there.  

Didn't pull them out of their boxes when they arrived; just looked thru the plastic cover; looked good.  One year later I did and found 3 of the 7 had 1 truck each with broken leaf springs.  Wound up buying  replacement trucks and installing them.  Same issue with the tint of the windows.  It is what it is.

What’s everyone’s thoughts on the snow covered roofs ???

mlavender480 posted:

I can see why Mike R. got out...

I think Mike Reagan was seeing a part of the Lionel business that we are all starting to see now.  They have lost control of production and outsourced it completely.  Lionel has no Quality Control Program because they are no longer in control of production.   They simply make a preliminary design and then some China company takes over the production methods, materials, and schedule.  Seems as if Lionel has reduced themselves to an order taker and distributor except throw in some freight car printing machine. 

This is starting to remind me of the previous Lionel business cycle.  During Post-War period was on top with innovative designs and quality production but only to almost lose it all during the MPC era.  Back again strong in early 2000 era with innovation only to let it all start to slip down the tubes again around 2015.  I miss the quality products that were coming out of Korea.    

 I have no confidence with the new products and zero confidence Lionel has the right team in place to correct it.  I am no Lionel basher but I can't sit by idly and watch them keep tanking it.  I collect them exclusively with thousands ($$$) spent on their products. 

H10 was my last engine buy, as I have enough to last till I'm gone.  Might get a few more cars to pull though.  Boy do I miss K-Line!

Is there a layperson fix to the issues or will they require being sent for repairs, or is it so bad only replacement trucks will do? I have a set of these plus the PRSL cars on order...kind of dreading what should be a fun experience.

I agree its unacceptable given the price of these cars. Unfortunately, fixing trains that are new out of the box has become part of the overall hobby experience, and a negative one at that.

At 200 bucks(!) a pop, these not only should be perfect, but be able to recite the entire film, bring you your morning coffee, and have a secret compartment that will refund your $ if it finds itself to be defective.

I would think you could find some nice old Walthers heavyweights for less $ at shows and eBay...

Mark in Oregon 

CSX Indy posted:

Ordered all 6 cars. 4 of the 6 have the exact same issue. The separately applied leaf spring is also a problem on a couple of the cars as well. Check them ALL out beforehand!!!

6 cars?  thought there was 5?

diner car

combination car

mail/baggage car

coach

observation car

which one am i missing?

Paul Kallus posted:

Is there a layperson fix to the issues or will they require being sent for repairs, or is it so bad only replacement trucks will do? I have a set of these plus the PRSL cars on order...kind of dreading what should be a fun experience.

I agree its unacceptable given the price of these cars. Unfortunately, fixing trains that are new out of the box has become part of the overall hobby experience, and a negative one at that.

If you go with replacing the trucks, it's a piece of cake and is easy using P.E. replacement trucks - 'Black trucks - 6205506050 - $32 each' when Lionel stocks them (I checked, they are in stock).  Done 3, have tips.

SPRUNG Passenger car trucks are too finely detailed to allow for the stress of shipping. It's because everything on the truck can move..wheels, springs, suspension arms.

The shipping carriers put a LOT of stress on packaging. Lots of Ups/Fed Ex/USPS horror stories.

So I doubt it's a lionel QC inspection issue. Everything gets from China to Lionel palletised. It' when things get shipped to distributors and then locally shipped to your LHS when probably the damage is done.

A simple inspection is to pick up an individual car box and lightly shake it...if it rattles like loose parts..most likely...its got broken truck sideframe parts.

Easy enough warranty fix by your LHS. ...OR contact Lionel for warranty repair

Don't invalidate your 1 year warranty buy trying to repair yourself.

Out of warranty? Bought used?

IF..you have the experience of the disassembly of Lionel heavyweight cars,... truck assemblies are not hard to remove and replace.

If not...seek out someone who does (fellow club member. LHS repair, ).

There is a lot that can get broken. Screws lost, wires disconnected.

If you are out of warranty, for whatever reason, and don't have the funds.....

Passenger car Sprung truck side frames are held on to the assembly by 2 screws. The side frame consists of the sideframe, suspension arms, springs, wheel journals and journal covers..all in one piece.

You do need to remove the body shell, interior, from the frame, and then remove the truck assembly from the car floor/frame to get to the sideframes of the trucks. Really being careful to not break the lighting  wires from the truck assembly.

EASY PEASY after a few OOPS.

SO......Lionel needs to stock up on assembled sprung truck sideframes. For those who have to fix their own cars.

AND ...MAYBE

Re access and maybe make the sideframes and suspension parts out of stamped steel similar to the truck assembly body or the floors of the passenger cars.

2 cents worthless

What? I have tons of passenger cars with sprung trucks on them and they all work fine and most of them survived multiple shipping adventures.

We like the snow on the roofs. In the Virginia and West Virginia mountains it snows a lot and it doesn’t melt this time of year very fast in southeast Virginia. We see trains often with snow covered coal hoppers. We plan to have some for the layout.

Heck, these cars go to and from the North Pole. No snow? You do still believe in Santa don’t you?

RickM46 posted:

Paul Kallus posted:

Is there a layperson fix to the issues or will they require being sent for repairs, or is it so bad only replacement trucks will do? I have a set of these plus the PRSL cars on order...kind of dreading what should be a fun experience.

I agree its unacceptable given the price of these cars. Unfortunately, fixing trains that are new out of the box has become part of the overall hobby experience, and a negative one at that.

If you go with replacing the trucks, it's a piece of cake and is easy using P.E. replacement trucks - 'Black trucks - 6205506050 - $32 each' when Lionel stocks them (I checked, they are in stock).  Done 3, have tips.

Rickm46

If you just do the correct sideframes, no solder work.

Paul,

It's the metal composition of the parts used, packaging, and heavy handedness of companies who get paid to deliver product unbroken.

Let's hope Lionel someday finds a way to cure these issues before products hit our shores. I've never understood the mentality of repairing a product I paid hard earned money for...

I should refine why I replaced my trucks; they all had broken black plastic leaf springs - didn't see leaf springs as replacement parts at Lionel.

Matt Makens posted:

What? I have tons of passenger cars with sprung trucks on them and they all work fine and most of them survived multiple shipping adventures.

Many old posts about zinc pest and passenger trucks.

Mostly involving Lionel sprung passenger trucks.(NYC, 20th Century Limited heavyweights, Santa Fe Chief heavyweight, George Washington heavyweight, and Alton heavyweight.)

I' ve replaced truck assemblies on all four of these sets (mine..new in the box..when I got them)

I thought it was zic rot but now have my doubts.

ZenGardenRails posted:

CSX Indy posted:

Ordered all 6 cars. 4 of the 6 have the exact same issue. The separately applied leaf spring is also a problem on a couple of the cars as well. Check them ALL out beforehand!!!

6 cars?  thought there was 5?

 

diner car

combination car

mail/baggage car

coach

observation car

which one am i missing?

https://mrmuffinstrains.com/pr...rs-the-polar-express

Gold Coach

RickM46 posted:

I should refine why I replaced my trucks; they all had broken black plastic leaf springs - didn't see leaf springs as replacement parts at Lionel.

They don't.

They don't sell the side frame assembly seperately either. No springs. No wheel journals or journal covers.

THEY NEED TO.

I bought fully assembled trucks. Removed the sideframe assemblies and replaced on my existing trucks...avoided soldering, ....now have spare wheels and couplers.

I kept all the 3 old trucks - never thought of using them as a parts junk yard - Ha, great idea!

RickO posted:

This can't be!!!..........

Howard Hitchcock stated on his last interview with Notch 6 that he had a QA team in place!!!!

 

Somewhere Mike Reagan is shaking his head.

And somewhere Howard has hand to face.

CSX Indy posted:

ZenGardenRails posted:

CSX Indy posted:

Ordered all 6 cars. 4 of the 6 have the exact same issue. The separately applied leaf spring is also a problem on a couple of the cars as well. Check them ALL out beforehand!!!

6 cars?  thought there was 5?

 

diner car

combination car

mail/baggage car

coach

observation car

which one am i missing?

https://mrmuffinstrains.com/pr...rs-the-polar-express

Gold Coach

I ordered two coaches. Now I have to immediately inspect each car when delivery happens after the holidays. This is a bummer!

I have one of the early non-scale sets from 2004; no blue tooth or wifi; works great. Every year I run the set under the tree,no problems.

So much for scale.

There is simply no reason to accept faulty items from Lionel. Lionel by the way, is all I own. Return them to place of purchase and get your money back. Hopefully we can force them to get involved in the quality improve process. If not, they will certainly disappear. 

dorfj2 posted:

What’s everyone’s thoughts on the snow covered roofs ???

I can only answer from an S gauger's point of view.  The Polar Express cars offered in S have always had "snow" on the roof, and I think they look better that way (better on the model than on my driveway!).  The movie's cars are covered with snow, so the model's cars should too.  I think the first issue of the O gauge cars were "snowless" and it's only lately that snow was added.  Probably in response to folks wanting the cars to look more like the movie.  The only problem with my cars (at least at first) was that light came through the roof of one car where the snow appeared since the blue wasn't applied first!  A bit of foil inside the cars solved that problem.

As an addition to this thread, my set was one of the first offered and two of the cars had a bit of damage to them due to improper assembly (cracked shell and stripped screw holes).  But rather than send them back, I was able to fix them so they appear as new.  The locomotive had a mislocated LED headlight and the band on the flywheel came off so the electronics didn't work properly.  The dealer suggested sending the whole set back, but since none were available for exchange in the first year, I opted to send only the locomotive back.  The dealer was able to fix it without having to wait for parts, and it came back in record time and is still working perfectly. 

My only (very minor) gripe is that us S guys don't have the additional cars like the hobo, hot chocolate and combine cars available to us.   It was my 6 year old grandson who brought this to my attention.   He also told me how to access the complete sound effects program that the manual didn't inform me about.   He doesn't mind the lack of cars, though since he not only runs the PE under the Christmas tree, but also on grandpa's larger layout downstairs.  He drove some of the non-train people nuts with the sound effects until I lowered the volume a bit.  He and I didn't mind a bit!  We had to keep his one year old brother from yanking the cars off the track, though. 

Sorry for the long answer guys.  Our big celebration was yesterday, and today my wife and I are relaxing and enjoying each other's company and being thankful for our health, family and a brief respite from outside problems.  So here's wishing all of you out there the best this Christmas season and for all the rest of the coming year!

Jerry Poniatowski                                                                                                                                                                                Wayne, MI      

PS  If any of you live in or will be visiting the Detroit area and want to go to either the Henry Ford Museum or its Greenfield Village, let me know.  I drive the Model T's and historic bus there and car arrange free admission.  The Museum is open all year and the Village will reopen mid April.          

I think there are too many footprints on the cars and too repeated/not randomly patterned,  making it look like a tire tread rolled down the center.  The actual  snow looks good...

Disregard my last post. I'm not familiar with the scale cars. I mistook the question for the regular ready to run set cars.

prrhorseshoecurve posted:

RickO posted:

This can't be!!!..........

Howard Hitchcock stated on his last interview with Notch 6 that he had a QA team in place!!!!

 

Somewhere Mike Reagan is shaking his head.

And somewhere Howard has hand to face.

Who is Howard? Head management? 

If so, no way possible today that these things are happening without the upper echelon knowing about it already.

Train Nut posted:

dorfj2 posted:

What’s everyone’s thoughts on the snow covered roofs ???

 

I think there are too many footprints on the cars and too repeated/not randomly patterned,  making it look like a tire tread rolled down the center.  The actual  snow looks good...

Train Nut posted:

Disregard my last post. I'm not familiar with the scale cars. I mistook the question for the regular ready to run set cars.

May not be the "correct" thread, your comments reflect many guests observations. The roofs will all be repainted white before going into storage till next year.

Received five PE blue cars. Every car was defective. Journal caps, screws, etc, some in the box and others simply missing. The plate under one car simply fell off in my hand. It was so bad that we didn’t look at anything else.

Received three gold PE coaches. Paint on the second was marred. At this point we were six unacceptable and one okay after a cursory inspection, one unopened.

We simply packed them away.

Also received a new LionChief plus steamer Thursday; the controller was DOA out of the box and the Bluetooth wouldn’t stay connected for one lap around the track. 42 people witnessed that fiasco when we tried it out a Saturday night.

My wife is beyond livid as our grandchildren were included in this mess. Her comments would be considered bashing and I do not want to be offensive to anyone. I would like to respectfully and politely ask the folks at Lionel to get their house in order. It is harming the hobby.

I don't have a PE, but maybe someone involved should call Lionel this week and see if they will do something for everyone.  Just a thought.

Bill Webb posted:

Received five PE blue cars. Every car was defective. Journal caps, screws, etc, some in the box and others simply missing. The plate under one car simply fell off in my hand. It was so bad that we didn’t look at anything else.

Received three gold PE coaches. Paint on the second was marred. At this point we were six unacceptable and one okay after a cursory inspection, one unopened.

We simply packed them away.

Also received a new LionChief plus steamer Thursday; the controller was DOA out of the box and the Bluetooth wouldn’t stay connected for one lap around the track. 42 people witnessed that fiasco when we tried it out a Saturday night.

My wife is beyond livid as our grandchildren were included in this mess. Her comments would be considered bashing and I do not want to be offensive to anyone. I would like to respectfully and politely ask the folks at Lionel to get their house in order. It is harming the hobby.

 

 

 

 

I had a neighbor stop by earlier this afternoon with a new RTR Polar Express set that wouldn't run. He said the remote was DOA and the app would only connect for about 5 minutes and then disconnect and leave the train chirping.  By the time he came to me had already spent the better half of (Christmas) morning trying to get it working. 

We tried four different devices with the app and got the same results. I offered a universal remote which did operate the engine without issue but he declined and said this thing is going back. I then offered one of my "Patch Together" salvage engines for his kids to play with just so they wouldn't be discourage about getting a train in the future and I was happy that he did take that home. Hopefully they aren't turned off from toy trains permanently.

With this RTR set costing just over $300, I'd expect a better out-of-box experience.

This makes the 1970's MPC era look GREAT!

Anyone have any ideas on what to replace the “blue tint” windows? The greenish light coming out of the passenger cars is not what I expected. Should be warm white light. Any help is appreciated and Merry Christmas!

Im in no hurry to buy any more Lionel stuff. I have tons of trains so if I dont buy any more Im not going to miss them

Dis anybody get a set that was in perfect condition?

I received my cars from Charles Ro and started going through them. All cars had at least one journal cap that popped off at some point, I was able to push them back in except for middle journal locations - the bushings came out in these spots as well and I cannot get them and the cover back in. Two cars had glue/solvent smears and/or other blemishes on the blue/red paint. One car had a broken ground wire to truck; and the diner was worst of all, with loose items inside, cosmetic blemishes, and journal caps off. I finally figured out how to open the end to find the source of rattle, loose chairs and tables. I spent around 3 hours thus far trying to fix what I can, but clearly some will have to go back. My first call will be to Charles Ro.

I ordered gold coaches cars as well and need to go through them before calling Charles, missed them on the first run in 2014.

My past experience with Lionel repairs has been mixed. Half the items I've sent to NC have come back with something else broken or original problem not fixed. That's why I am attempting to fix what I can. This is a sorry state of affairs.

I can't believe the amount of defects being reported.  This should have been a simple production run.  The product was previously produced back in 2012 so the engineering and tooling should have been all de-bugged.  This is strictly production quality problems.  Lionel's Hitchcock's and Ryan's strategy of having " a couple of guys" over in China overseeing production doesn't seem to be cutting it. 

Steims posted:

  Lionel's Hitchcock's and Ryan's strategy of having " a couple of guys" over in China overseeing production doesn't seem to be cutting it. 

You don't really believe that happened, do you??

To add a different view:  Saw a documentary some years ago on Chinese factories (loosely at the way ours were around 1900); business clients are not allowed in the factories to monitor the manufacturing process; production starts and ends and the client gets the sealed products; don't know if validating prototypes and making adjustments is always involved. 

OTOH, my last five 2018 locos are excellent so far.

Going to China was making a deal with the devil.  Once the priceless tooling went there, there was no getting it back.  So all of these importers are held in contempt by what is in effect a monopoly.  And now that they hold all of the cards, China can lessen quality and increase prices until the cows come home... and what can we do about it?

Jon

I bought the Christmas Express LionChief set from Charles Ro at York.....no chuff/RS or smoke. Ro immediately made good on the engine and sent me a new one.....now, all I'm missing is smoke. I didn't send it back a second time. I figure it's loose wire somewhere and I'll look it over.......but, it is aggravating......

Contrast it to my 60 year old 1958 New Haven set.....runs like a Swiss watch.....
Apples and oranges, true. But, if technology advances in Lionel's product over a 60 year period, quality should not go 60 years backward.....

Peter

What can we do about it? The solution is simple.

”NOT BUY IT. At least on the island of misfit toys the toys work.”

Famous quote by Paula Webb, furious lady, school teacher, grandmother. Don’t mess with kids around her.

KOOLjock1 posted:

Going to China was making a deal with the devil.  Once the priceless tooling went there, there was no getting it back.  So all of these importers are held in contempt by what is in effect a monopoly.  And now that they hold all of the cards, China can lessen quality and increase prices until the cows come home... and what can we do about it?

Jon

Good Point Jon,

How long do you think it will be before we see a Chinese company start making Model trains that mirror what is being built today at hugely discounted prices (and quality)?

We see this happening in many other industries. I was at an outdoor show earlier this year and saw Chinese knock--off brand of ATV's and Side-by-Sides that were much cheaper than the known name brands out there. One year warranty and no dealer support... yikes.

I bought the 6 cars, two of them each have one journal box broken off. Also, found a loose screw in the box on another car, found the hole where it should go, but it won't thread into anything.

This seems to be an unprecedented amount of defective pieces. Last time anything like this happened was on one of the scale Polar Express locomotive trailing trucks.  Same factory?

Perhaps a rebellion against US economic policies by one or more factory workers.

what a chaotic thread.

I watched a podcast that I had mentioned before on another thread.  It was a well known player in the model train market. It was of their model train manufacturing in China.  All the workers were lined up at tables sitting on little plastic stools.  Stuff stacked everywhere.  Looked like mostly women and none of them seemed to care about or respond to the man showing the factory.  Pitiful looking place.  Some blame does go to the companies for sure!  But I see buyers complaining that things made in the US cost a bit more.  And it is true.  And all the machinery, technology, and product inside a Chinese factory belong to the government of China.   Its a sad state of affairs for sure.  

Ive seen the knock off 4 wheeler and side by sides also.  Absolute junk.  Cheap copy of a Honda engine. 

I did get some rolling stock for Christmas.   Just some simple stuff but it was all good.  Maybe someday  the production will return to the US.  Probably not. 

Jim

SJC posted:

Made a special, out of the way, trip to the LHS to pick up the scale Polar Express Lionel cars to run around the tree this year. The engine was delivered in August - beautiful and perfect out of the box. 

I bought 5 cars at $200 a pop, plus tax, in addition to the $1,500 engine. You do the math. Every single car has the bearings falling out and detail parts rattling around in the box. Totally unacceptable. They are all going back, I will not tolerate this. 

Just an FYI for you guys that waited for these, you might want to check yours out. 

 

 

.....And people wonder why I like Postwar Lionel.......

 

 

Had 2 loose ones.  Do they hand press on.  Held on by friction.

Mine are supposed to be here today. I hope there is nothing wrong with them. If there is I will be sending them back.

Received my 5 car set this morning from RO. Was real wary of opening the cars after reading this tread. I guess I was lucky.  I (like Bryant above) had two loose journal covers and some paint blemish on the observation-not terrible and some odd other colors on a few trucks that I can simply paint black. Hate to live with the blemish but if I go with another one it may be worse. Have to really look to see what is has now. Have not had a chance to run them - may open a whole new can of worms when that happens.

Any body know what glue you need to put the journal covers back on?

prrhorseshoecurve posted:

RickO posted:

This can't be!!!..........

Howard Hitchcock stated on his last interview with Notch 6 that he had a QA team in place!!!!

 

Somewhere Mike Reagan is shaking his head.

And somewhere Howard has hand to face.

Maybe the team is in the wrong country, not China? 

Vietnam anyone?

For what this stuff costs, there’s no excuse for any of this... but just like the automakers of the 70’s- as long as people keep buying this poorly made stuff, they’ll happily keep producing it.

Paul Kallus posted:

Is there a layperson fix to the issues or will they require being sent for repairs, or is it so bad only replacement trucks will do? 

Loose bearing caps have been an issue for years. Had some on a Southern Crescent  set. Super easy fix. Just put them back in place with a little glue.

Received my cars today. 2 are missing brake shoes and 1 has a loose side frame. I can tighten the loose side frame but I wonder if Lionel will send me 2 brake shoes? I can put them on myself. Looks like I will be contacting customer service. Other than the problems mentioned above I consider myself lucky.

feet posted:

Received my cars today. 2 are missing brake shoes and 1 has a loose side frame. I can tighten the loose side frame but I wonder if Lionel will send me 2 brake shoes? I can put them on myself. Looks like I will be contacting customer service. Other than the problems mentioned above I consider myself lucky.

I haven't picked my car's up yet but I'm afraid that because I'm a little bit of a layman when it comes to scale rolling stock... That I won't know what's missing unless it's broken off and rattling around. you're saying the shoes aren't even in there I don't know that I would even realize that :-(

ZenGardenRails posted:

feet posted:

Received my cars today. 2 are missing brake shoes and 1 has a loose side frame. I can tighten the loose side frame but I wonder if Lionel will send me 2 brake shoes? I can put them on myself. Looks like I will be contacting customer service. Other than the problems mentioned above I consider myself lucky.

I haven't picked my car's up yet but I'm afraid that because I'm a little bit of a layman when it comes to scale rolling stock... That I won't know what's missing unless it's broken off and rattling around. you're saying the shoes aren't even in there I don't know that I would even realize that :-(

Yes the shoes are not there, never installed at the factory. Carefully looked in the box, no brake shoes.

Picked up the set I ordered from Charles Ro at fedex and my experience is pretty much the same as everyone else, not good. 

-I have 3 cars that have have scrapes, scratches, or noticeable blemishes on the roof.  The problem is its not just a small scrape here and there, its like they tried to touch them up at the factory and all the spots stick out like a sore thumb because the spots seem glossier than the rest of the roof. Sorry, not acceptable on cars that are $200 each.  

-All but one have journal covers that are popped off floating around in the box.  Haven't tried to stick them back on yet.

-Another one has a couple pieces floating around inside.  It is also one with bad paint on the roof, so I am not even going to attempt to fix it.  

Going to call tomorrow Charles Ro and see if they have stock to exchange the 3 with paint blemishes.  

*EDIT* I think at least some of the problems with the journal covers popping off is the shipping materials from Lionel.  The plastic the cars are in offer no protection from impact and we all know how things get tossed around by fedex/ups.  

Blue Streak posted:

Any body know what glue you need to put the journal covers back on?

Three of my cars have two to three journal box covers off. Taking a look at these, I do not think glue is the answer. It looks like a press fit to me. HOWEVER, I would be very careful reinstalling them as the there is a correlation with the equalizing bar, which needs to be in place above the bearing. reinstalling the cover helter-skelter could mash the the bar if it slips down onto the face of the bearing.
I have been out of town today and not able to contact anyone yet. I want to hear from someone with the correct knowledge on how to reinstall the caps as the two pieces depend on each other, the journal cap holds the bearing in the proper location in the sideframe.

One figure has come loose in the diner and is doing the "Hot Chocolate" dance inside if i tilt the car around! Small problem compared to the journal caps!!!

breezinup posted:

Paul Kallus posted:

Is there a layperson fix to the issues or will they require being sent for repairs, or is it so bad only replacement trucks will do? 

Loose bearing caps have been an issue for years. Had some on a Southern Crescent  set. Super easy fix. Just put them back in place with a little glue.

Sorry, I didn't spend $1,000+ for a kit. 

Friday is going to be a lousy rainy day - sounds like a perfect day to take these duds back to the store. 

Are the journal covers separately applied pieces that fell off, or were they molded into the frame and actually broke off?

If they are separately applied pieces, how are they applied at the factory? Glue???

The exploded diagram shows no such applied piece.

I feel bad for all you who have had issues with your purchase(s), I really do. There's no excuse for such shoddy workmanship (or lack thereof) but...I have to ask (and I wouldn't be surprised if I get kicked off this forum for asking this):

Why on earth are you willing to spend $200(!) each on what are basically "fantasy" cars from an importer whose QC issues are common and very well known?

You can often find nice Walthers cars (built or unbuilt) at shows etc., for around $40-$50; have the fun of building them yourself, pick up some trucks (always easy to find), paint them, find someone to make you some decal sets, and there you are. I mean heck, if you have to spend the time to basically re-build these imported "R-T-Rs" anyway, why not just build 'em yourself, save some $$ and avoid the angst?

I know, "to each his own", but I just don't get it...and no offense was intended.

Mark in Oregon

NYC Fan posted:

Are the journal covers separately applied pieces that fell off, or were they molded into the frame and actually broke off?

If they are separately applied pieces, how are they applied at the factory? Glue???

The exploded diagram shows no such applied piece.

See Bryant's post above.

Bryant Dunivan 111417 posted:

SJC posted:

Made a special, out of the way, trip to the LHS to pick up the scale Polar Express Lionel cars to run around the tree this year. The engine was delivered in August - beautiful and perfect out of the box. 

I bought 5 cars at $200 a pop, plus tax, in addition to the $1,500 engine. You do the math. Every single car has the bearings falling out and detail parts rattling around in the box. Totally unacceptable. They are all going back, I will not tolerate this. 

Just an FYI for you guys that waited for these, you might want to check yours out. 

 

 

.....And people wonder why I like Postwar Lionel.......

 

 

Had 2 loose ones.  Do they hand press on.  Held on by friction.

I've fixed bunches of these popped off "bearing caps" over the years, but they will never come off again if you follow this repair technique.  The equalizer bars lift slightly allowing the top of the bearing cap to be fitted.  Place a small drop of CA in the lower bearing journal slot, and a small drop on the top of the upper cap tab on the cap itself.  Carefully raise the equalizer bars a tiny bit.  This is done by carefully pushing upward from the bottom of the bar, against the spring pressure downward.   Gently place cap back into position, then release the equalizer bars so they rest on top of the cap.  Helpful hints to the newbie:  Try this "dry fitment" a few times before using the CA. You may want to enlist a good friend to help out placing the cap with good tweezers steadier hands etc.  

Strummer posted:

I feel bad for all you who have had issues with your purchase(s), I really do. There's no excuse for such shoddy workmanship (or lack thereof) but...I have to ask (and I wouldn't be surprised if I get kicked off this forum for asking this):

Why on earth are you willing to spend $200(!) each on what are basically "fantasy" cars from an importer whose QC issues are common and very well known?

You can often find nice Walthers cars (built or unbuilt) at shows etc., for around $40-$50; have the fun of building them yourself, pick up some trucks (always easy to find), paint them, find someone to make you some decal sets, and there you are. I mean heck, if you have to spend the time to basically re-build these imported "R-T-Rs" anyway, why not just build 'em yourself, save some $$ and avoid the angst?

I know, "to each his own", but I just don't get it...and no offense was intended.

Mark in Oregon

 

Unfortunately 3rail is an out of the box and run hobby. 

Welcome to my world of broken trains.

Two years ago when I started listing on OGR Forum the difficulties I was having with the new Lionel engines, passenger cars and sound box cars, I was criticized, and my sanity was questioned by Forum members. 

I am so glad others are now having an opportunity to share in my experience.

The Journals fell off my Pennsylvania 18" and Santa Fe "Scout" cars two years ago.  Mine were able to be Krazy Glued back on.  Be careful not to get glue on moving parts.  I did have to buy two replacement trucks for a Pennsylvania dining car and another for a Southern Pacific Daylight 18" Sound Dining Car.

Those of us with major investments in Lionel Legacy-age equipment should be very concerned by the "QC" issues.

Does "QC" mean:  a. Quality Control,  b. Quit Complaining, or c. Quite Crappy?

Maybe Lionel will tell you to return them to your dealer and get your money back.  I am still waiting for coupler parts for two of the fifty-five (55) 21" passenger cars I purchased in February, 2018, when Lionel said they had no parts for the new cars.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

John we still question your sanity

romiller49 posted:

Unfortunately 3rail is an out of the box and run hobby. 

Historically, that's true; perhaps due in part that 3-railed trains were first marketed as "toys"; dunno if $200.00 passenger cars can still be called that. 

Maybe the "out of the box and run" mind set is going to have to change; those willing to shell out that kind of dough may have to deal with a new norm of "out of the box and repair, then run".

In any case, it's a shame this type of situation exists...

Mark in Oregon

Thanks Matt.  Every kind word helps.

Does anyone know if the new Broadway Limited K4 Set passenger cars have the same trucks?  How about the Long Island passenger cars?

Sincerely, John Rowlen

One other thing that upsets me with these cars, the green window glazing. I have never seen a passenger car with green tinted windows, model or real. I will call Lionel tomorrow and see what they say. I am probably going to return them and get a refund if that's possible. I wonder if anybody from Lionel is following this thread?

Well, I’ve heard it called before a tinkerer’s hobby.  Happy tinkering!  

I’m setting up my prewar standard gauge layout on the floor as soon as I clean it, tomorrow.  That’s more my speed.  Trains over 90 years old still running like new.  I bailed after TMCC.  Too much stress.  Who needs it.  It’s a freakin toy train.  Best left at that.  Cheers,       W1

H1000 posted:

Bill Webb posted:

Received five PE blue cars. Every car was defective. Journal caps, screws, etc, some in the box and others simply missing. The plate under one car simply fell off in my hand. It was so bad that we didn’t look at anything else.

Received three gold PE coaches. Paint on the second was marred. At this point we were six unacceptable and one okay after a cursory inspection, one unopened.

We simply packed them away.

Also received a new LionChief plus steamer Thursday; the controller was DOA out of the box and the Bluetooth wouldn’t stay connected for one lap around the track. 42 people witnessed that fiasco when we tried it out a Saturday night.

My wife is beyond livid as our grandchildren were included in this mess. Her comments would be considered bashing and I do not want to be offensive to anyone. I would like to respectfully and politely ask the folks at Lionel to get their house in order. It is harming the hobby.

 

 

 

 

I had a neighbor stop by earlier this afternoon with a new RTR Polar Express set that wouldn't run. He said the remote was DOA and the app would only connect for about 5 minutes and then disconnect and leave the train chirping.  By the time he came to me had already spent the better half of (Christmas) morning trying to get it working. 

We tried four different devices with the app and got the same results. I offered a universal remote which did operate the engine without issue but he declined and said this thing is going back. I then offered one of my "Patch Together" salvage engines for his kids to play with just so they wouldn't be discourage about getting a train in the future and I was happy that he did take that home. Hopefully they aren't turned off from toy trains permanently.

With this RTR set costing just over $300, I'd expect a better out-of-box experience.

 

I had a similar experience with my polar express Bluetooth set.  I have decided to take it back and get out of it, broke down on Christmas day after running about an hour.  Big let down and too much stress.  Perhaps I will pursue a conventional set for the tree..it was fun for a bit..

Paul Kallus posted:

I finally figured out how to open the end to find the source of rattle, loose chairs and tables.

Paul, how did you get the ends off??  Maybe a few pics? 

I have replaced the trucks on 3 previous generation PE heavies (paint was perfect, truck stabilizer bars broken) - not hard.  What made it easy are the extra long power and ground leads on the trucks; beware of the truck C-clip - not sprung metal, soft metal and bends open).

Rick, to remove end caps, you have to remove bottom screws and the secret is a screw on top inside of vestibule that needs to be removed - from inserting screwdriver under car.

I've since found more defects in my cars. Two ends (vestibules) in two cars were glued together while not locked together correctly - result is a crooked end of car. There's no fix to this as they were solvent glued without being snapped completely together.

I found one truck side frame is falling off. To fix, the chassis has to be removed and the truck dropped - then you can access screws to fasten. A time-consuming PITA.

I've messed around with the journal covers...they can be put back in IF the bushings are inside truck frame. If bushings came out of inside of frame, then popping the covers back on will only result in them popping back off whenever the leaf spring is actuated. I don't know how to secure the bushings - they ride up and down in the frame so I don't think gluing them would work? My new PRSL heavyweights had the same issue (2 out of 4 cars).

I don't know if the truck design is faulty or if its assembly, casting problems, or what. One thing I am sure of is whoever assembled these cars did a poor job.

The other thing I thought of is how long will the good cars roll before their bushings come out and journal covers pop off?

I never thought of checking if the lighting works in the cars until now. Has anyone checked if the lighting works in their cars?

RickM46 posted:

Paul Kallus posted:

Is there a layperson fix to the issues or will they require being sent for repairs, or is it so bad only replacement trucks will do? I have a set of these plus the PRSL cars on order...kind of dreading what should be a fun experience.

I agree its unacceptable given the price of these cars. Unfortunately, fixing trains that are new out of the box has become part of the overall hobby experience, and a negative one at that.

If you go with replacing the trucks, it's a piece of cake and is easy using P.E. replacement trucks - 'Black trucks - 6205506050 - $32 each' when Lionel stocks them (I checked, they are in stock).  Done 3, have tips.

So you purchased a $200 car and then $64 of trucks to fix it?

So you purchased a $200 car and then $64 of trucks to fix it?

Yep; I knew the following when I got into the hobby in 2014: Lionel products from China would be iffy; unbox, send back to Lionel, repair yourself, were part of the hobby; the latter will exist for the time being;  if you want to play you got to pay; only a few nations are fanatics for precision, quality, consistency.

Might give a run at Marklin.

RickM46 posted:

So you purchased a $200 car and then $64 of trucks to fix it?

Yep; I knew the following when I got into the hobby in 2014: Lionel products from China would be iffy; unbox, send back to Lionel, repair yourself, were part of the hobby; the latter will exist for the time being;  if you want to play you got to pay; only a few nations are fanatics for precision, quality, consistency.

That's why we have issues.  If folks don't bother to hold manufacturers accountable they have no incentive to fix.  They just sit back and laugh all the way to the bank.

-Greg

RickM46 posted:

So you purchased a $200 car and then $64 of trucks to fix it?

Yep; I knew the following when I got into the hobby in 2014: Lionel products from China would be iffy; unbox, send back to Lionel, repair yourself, were part of the hobby; the latter will exist for the time being;  if you want to play you got to pay; only a few nations are fanatics for precision, quality, consistency.

Weren't these cars under warranty? If they were Lionel would have paid for the trucks. Then again the replacements are the same as the broken ones and will surely break again. The older ones are falling apart due to zinc pest. I'd be looking at ones from other manufacturers. MTH had one bad year for trucks (2005) and I have not heard of Williams trucks failing and their complete cars can for 25 bucks on the auction sites.

Pete

Weren't these cars under warranty?

Nope. 

I'd rather be ice fishing posted:

H1000 posted:

Bill Webb posted:

Received five PE blue cars. Every car was defective. Journal caps, screws, etc, some in the box and others simply missing. The plate under one car simply fell off in my hand. It was so bad that we didn’t look at anything else.

Received three gold PE coaches. Paint on the second was marred. At this point we were six unacceptable and one okay after a cursory inspection, one unopened.

We simply packed them away.

Also received a new LionChief plus steamer Thursday; the controller was DOA out of the box and the Bluetooth wouldn’t stay connected for one lap around the track. 42 people witnessed that fiasco when we tried it out a Saturday night.

My wife is beyond livid as our grandchildren were included in this mess. Her comments would be considered bashing and I do not want to be offensive to anyone. I would like to respectfully and politely ask the folks at Lionel to get their house in order. It is harming the hobby.

 

 

 

 

I had a neighbor stop by earlier this afternoon with a new RTR Polar Express set that wouldn't run. He said the remote was DOA and the app would only connect for about 5 minutes and then disconnect and leave the train chirping.  By the time he came to me had already spent the better half of (Christmas) morning trying to get it working. 

We tried four different devices with the app and got the same results. I offered a universal remote which did operate the engine without issue but he declined and said this thing is going back. I then offered one of my "Patch Together" salvage engines for his kids to play with just so they wouldn't be discourage about getting a train in the future and I was happy that he did take that home. Hopefully they aren't turned off from toy trains permanently.

With this RTR set costing just over $300, I'd expect a better out-of-box experience.

 

I had a similar experience with my polar express Bluetooth set.  I have decided to take it back and get out of it, broke down on Christmas day after running about an hour.  Big let down and too much stress.  Perhaps I will pursue a conventional set for the tree..it was fun for a bit..

Update from my Neighbor:

He bought the set last month while in Kansas. He called the shop where he bought asking for a refund, because the set was purchased more than 30 days ago, they would have to charge a restocking fee (not to mention the shipping charges to return the item).  Then he asked if they could fix it, and got the good ol' call Lionel service because they are not an authorized service center.

Next was his call to Lionel support, they did some of the basic troubleshooting that had already been performed and determined the set needs to be returned. An RMA tag and shipping label were issued, and he was told it would be 4 to 6 weeks before the set would be returned.

Needless to say, he is not happy. He commented that if you buy these things for Christmas, you better plan on keeping your tree up until valentines day to actually have a train run around it.

I wished him a happy valentines day and told him he can keep my loaner set for as long as he wants.

This may be an exaggeration here, but considering all of the issues Lionel has been having with their products and judging by how frustrated people seem to be getting with Lionel about the newer products in the last 3-4 years, we may be seeing Lionel's lowest point since the MPC era. If it hasn't already, we may be on our way towards Lionel's lowest point in its history so far, surpassing the MPC era. Sure, all of their products look and sound sharper/nicer/better/etc. compared to the MPC era. However, I'm sure the overall reliability physically, electrically, and mechanically speaking might be a different story...

TrainMasterMark posted:

This may be an exaggeration here, but considering all of the issues Lionel has been having with their products and judging by how frustrated people seem to be getting with Lionel about the newer products in the last 3-4 years, we may be seeing Lionel's lowest point since the MPC era. If it hasn't already, we may be on our way towards Lionel's lowest point in its history so far, surpassing the MPC era. Sure, all of their products look and sound sharper/nicer/better/etc. compared to the MPC era. However, I'm sure the overall reliability physically, electrically, and mechanically speaking might be a different story...

It seems you've made some valid observations. Given the most recent onslaught of defective items mentioned on this site, I took a look at some other forums that focus mostly on other scales, just to see if those folks are experiencing similar issues with their trains.

I think it's probably safe to assume that (for the most part) new items are now made in China, so all things being equal, one would expect to see more of the same, regardless of scale.

I found that (for the most part anyway), the sheer volume of issues we're seeing here in O/O27 is much greater than in HO, N or other scales. Sure, there certainly have been some notable "missteps" (the N scale Athearn Challenger comes to mind), and there have been some other problems, but I'm not seeing them with the same frequency as here.

Could be that the "plug and play" approach (although perhaps becoming the norm in all scales) is more prevalent here in O/O27; and perhaps there are more modelers in other scales willing to fix issues(?) as opposed to just sending them back, but these problems still get discussed on other forums.

All I know is there are always several (at least) on-going threads on this site about the most recent problems, usually blamed on QC issues; what I don't know is how this may effect future (and current) modelers, importers, and the hobby in general.

Here's hoping for a better 2019...

Mark in Oregon

I'll take MPC any day over what's coming in now.

So the green window tint... 

This was the same on the last heavyweights wasn't it? It seems like such a weird decision... but perhaps it's just a holdover from some other heavyweight that defaults with green window tint?

Which heavyweight line is this Polar Express derived from for Lionel?

I may be replacing those windows and I may be doing the alteration to the back that Cand0/Keith did. Tinkerers hobby to be sure.  

Charles Ro is sending a pickup request via Fedex to pick up my damaged cars. I am appreciative of this service. I gathered from talking to Charles and Butch that we here on the forum are on the front-end of this, since the cars were just released a week ago. At this early time, replacements are not a viable option as the replacements may have the same issues. I am willing to wait assuming Lionel takes the lead on helping dealers resolve this.

Between my PE blue and red cars, gold PE cars, and PRSL cars, 10 out of 22 need to go back. And, out of the 12 I am keeping as-is I was able to fix about half of that lot. It was a huge order for me and am feeling like I have "sucker" written on my forehead. I've been active in the hobby more or less since 1998 and this is the lowest I've experienced, and I've seen a LOT of QC problems in the last twenty years.

Lionel needs to figure things out sooner than later.

I doubt there will be any government bailout for them when folks stop buying.

I feel sorry for Dean, Ryan, and Dave.

I bet it's tuff for them to get up and go to work everyday.

They get the brunt of the heat for corporate Lionels bad decisions.

TrainMasterMark posted:

This may be an exaggeration here, but considering all of the issues Lionel has been having with their products and judging by how frustrated people seem to be getting with Lionel about the newer products in the last 3-4 years, we may be seeing Lionel's lowest point since the MPC era. If it hasn't already, we may be on our way towards Lionel's lowest point in its history so far, surpassing the MPC era. Sure, all of their products look and sound sharper/nicer/better/etc. compared to the MPC era. However, I'm sure the overall reliability physically, electrically, and mechanically speaking might be a different story...

From what I read on this forum - you are right about today's Lionel problems &  the folks at Lionel need to make a "group visit" to a proctologist.   On the other hand, there is MTH - note a lot less complaints about their products.  MPC had its good side & not so good side, BUT if no MPC era - than no Lionel at all today.

The green tinted windows are a two-piece film and plastic.  I had to replace them on my Pennsylvania cars because there were tiny little bubbles forming between the green film and the plastic.

Cue music: "Tiny Bubbles".

I have been reading this thead while my 1947 Berkshire (with its original motor) does it circuit around the Christmas tree, pulling eight baby Madison cars (late 80s vintage with my custom railroad name on each).  Am astounded at all the issues being described with what should be the latest and greatest  from a once storied manufacturer, which apparently has gone completely over to the dark side of commercial practice.  Specifically,  charging top dollar while outsourcing everything to foreign sweatshops that produce flawed products.  Or put more bluntly, Lionel is going to learn the hard way how quickly brand reputations can decline once their market realizes the company no longer cares about the quality of their products. .   

Very simple solution.... STOP BUYING... do NOT pre-order. 

Given all the negative Lionel issues reported here, it shocks me people buy this high end stuff without going to a store in person and inspecting each item to make sure it is undamaged and works correctly.  I guess it is more satisfying to be disappointed and then complain here?  It is an odd dynamic - I am not sure if the issues are as bad as they appear or if there is a vocal chorus that enjoys telling everyone how much they paid and how disappointed they are.  

My local Lionel Dealer won't bring the high end engines into his store. How can I see them?  How can I inspect them?  He only sells starter sets and older Lionel from when I was a kid.

His store is no longer an Authorized Lionel Service Station.

One of Lionel's Top Ten Dealers closed his Service Station a year ago.  Where can you go for service?  If you find somewhere, they are backlogged for months and not taking new work at this time.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

I am sorry to hear about all the problems my colleagues on the Forum have been having with the scale Polar Express cars. I wish I could say I am surprised, but I am not. I have noticed a steep decline in the design and quality of the products at Lionel over the past few years. The Polar Express fiasco is just the latest example. I could give many examples of these failures, but you are all familiar with them. And things are getting worse. Quite frankly, I am not interested in excuses at this point. As someone who has worked in the corporate world for over 35 years, most of that time in senior leadership roles, it is perfectly obvious that the current Lionel management team, from Mr. Hitchcock down, has been an abysmal failure and is driving Lionel into the ground. There is nothing personal about this - it is cold hard fact. The management team is also completely out of touch with both its customers and its distributors. It needs to be replaced immediately. I have to believe that the ownership group, Wellspring Associates L.L.C., will recognize this and make the necessary changes before it is too late.

Laidoffsick posted:

Very simple solution.... STOP BUYING... do NOT pre-order. 

Which is what I was saying yesterday in the now deleted thread.

Constant complaints about Lionel QC (or lack there of), production problems, wrong paint colors, defective parts, and company mismanagement.

Next step =  Buy more and more high-end trains spending thousands of dollars per year.

Ray Lombardo posted:

Given all the negative Lionel issues reported here, it shocks me people buy this high end stuff without going to a store in person and inspecting each item to make sure it is undamaged and works correctly.  I guess it is more satisfying to be disappointed and then complain here?  It is an odd dynamic - I am not sure if the issues are as bad as they appear or if there is a vocal chorus that enjoys telling everyone how much they paid and how disappointed they are.  

Closest 4 dealers won't bring high end stuff in unless someone pre-orders.

I would have to drive 5 hours just to look... Dealer likely troubleshoots any problems before putting it on their layout anyway.

You know there was a Train Store in Coon Rapids, MN (just North of Minneapolis) that I purchased Lionel products from. When I moved out of the Area, I continued to buy from him! Every Engine was Lubed and Tested before shipment! All cars were inspected before shipped as well!

He was a fairly large Shop, but managed to find the time to do this! I purchased a great deal of product from him! Maybe these large Dealers should hire someone to do this!  Save the Customer a great deal of anguish & frustration!!!

Just saying!!

Fredstrains

Send them back to Lionel Service for repairs or refunds. Eventually Lionel will get the message.

Ray Lombardo posted:

Given all the negative Lionel issues reported here, it shocks me people buy this high end stuff without going to a store in person and inspecting each item to make sure it is undamaged and works correctly.  I guess it is more satisfying to be disappointed and then complain here?  It is an odd dynamic - I am not sure if the issues are as bad as they appear or if there is a vocal chorus that enjoys telling everyone how much they paid and how disappointed they are.  

I absolutely agree.

And always amazes me that many, not all, members of the "vocal chorus" are exactly the same people who post here about their latest preorders and purchases after being disappointed over and over.

I can do the math. People are spending tens of thousands of dollars on toy trains buying from a company they do not trust.

Color me confused. 

Before this thread gets closed, my 2 cents and the conundrum: I like the features of Legacy - my last 5 locos themselves are OK (AC9, Polar Exp, S3, USRA Pacific, H10); tenders, maybe from another factory - trucks needed adj.; cars from yet another factory; switch track from yet other factories.

The conundrum: the aforementioned foreign factories (about 7) are government owned, thusly, there is no competition toward excellence; clients have zero control and cannot enter and cannot influence production; make new factories here or Europe - get real, that ship has sailed; wouldn't want to be in Lionel mgmt.

Not buying just puts Lionel closer to out of business; I am at the Autumn of my years and want to enjoy Legacy; the possible extra load on MTH etc. will just produce the same volume results.

RickM46 posted:

Not buying just puts Lionel closer to out of business; I am at the Autumn of my years and want to enjoy Legacy; the possible extra load on MTH etc. will just produce the same volume results.

I could not disagree more.  Continuing to buy inferior products at high prices offers no incentive for Lionel to adddress the problems.

Lionel’s action, or lack there of, will determine if they fail or succeed.

johnstrains posted:

Ray Lombardo posted:

Given all the negative Lionel issues reported here, it shocks me people buy this high end stuff without going to a store in person and inspecting each item to make sure it is undamaged and works correctly.  I guess it is more satisfying to be disappointed and then complain here?  It is an odd dynamic - I am not sure if the issues are as bad as they appear or if there is a vocal chorus that enjoys telling everyone how much they paid and how disappointed they are.  

I absolutely agree.

And always amazes me that many, not all, members of the "vocal chorus" are exactly the same people who post here about their latest preorders and purchases after being disappointed over and over.

I can do the math. People are spending tens of thousands of dollars on toy trains buying from a company they do not trust.

Color me confused. 

Not sure who qualifies under the "vocal chorus" heading, but I think the people who actually gave reports on the condition of their new purchase are doing everyone a favor. To suggest they'd get any enjoyment out of the debacle strikes me as weird.

In the same way you look at reviews on Amazon, it is helpful to see the buyer's perspective on the product. Otherwise, all you have is the glossy catalog and marketing blurbs from the manufacturer to rely on. Forum members helping forum members with valid information is the value of this venue in my humble opinion. I'd think fellow forum members would be empathetic to these scenarios given the common love of the hobby. So to those who simply reported on a disappointing purchase and the flaws in the product received, thank you for the heads up.

The rest of the posts about people who run the toy company, where the products are manufactured, judging why someone buys a product to begin with, local hobby shops (by the way, what are those?), etc ... eh.

Mooner posted:

johnstrains posted:

Ray Lombardo posted:

Given all the negative Lionel issues reported here, it shocks me people buy this high end stuff without going to a store in person and inspecting each item to make sure it is undamaged and works correctly.  I guess it is more satisfying to be disappointed and then complain here?  It is an odd dynamic - I am not sure if the issues are as bad as they appear or if there is a vocal chorus that enjoys telling everyone how much they paid and how disappointed they are.  

I absolutely agree.

And always amazes me that many, not all, members of the "vocal chorus" are exactly the same people who post here about their latest preorders and purchases after being disappointed over and over.

I can do the math. People are spending tens of thousands of dollars on toy trains buying from a company they do not trust.

Color me confused. 

Not sure who qualifies under the "vocal chorus" heading, but I think the people who actually gave reports on the condition of their new purchase are doing everyone a favor. To suggest they'd get any enjoyment out of the debacle strikes me as weird.

In the same way you look at reviews on Amazon, it is helpful to see the buyer's perspective on the product. Otherwise, all you have is the glossy catalog and marketing blurbs from the manufacturer to rely on. Forum members helping forum members with valid information is the value of this venue in my humble opinion. I'd think fellow forum members would be empathetic to these scenarios given the common love of the hobby. So to those who simply reported on a disappointing purchase and the flaws in the product received, thank you for the heads up.

The rest of the posts about people who run the toy company, where the products are manufactured, judging why someone buys a product to begin with, local hobby shops (by the way, what are those?), etc ... eh.

Where the product is made and the circumstances in that country are 100% the problem.  How its dealt with is Lionel and MANY other companies problems.   Our government and our industries have made a deal with the devil, sending production to all these third world countries.  Now we are suffering for it. 

On the other hand their is a "vocal chorus" of folks complaining about the price of Lionel products that are at least somewhat made in America.   You can see that in many threads pimping Chinese made rolling stock.  Its on lose-lose situation.  

I'm no model train expert, but I do sell products that used to be made in America, that for years now are being made in China.  Shockingly the tide is turning and now we are seeing more and more product coming in made in the US and Canada!   There is hope!

Jim

Mooner posted:

johnstrains posted:

Ray Lombardo posted:

Given all the negative Lionel issues reported here, it shocks me people buy this high end stuff without going to a store in person and inspecting each item to make sure it is undamaged and works correctly.  I guess it is more satisfying to be disappointed and then complain here?  It is an odd dynamic - I am not sure if the issues are as bad as they appear or if there is a vocal chorus that enjoys telling everyone how much they paid and how disappointed they are.  

I absolutely agree.

And always amazes me that many, not all, members of the "vocal chorus" are exactly the same people who post here about their latest preorders and purchases after being disappointed over and over.

I can do the math. People are spending tens of thousands of dollars on toy trains buying from a company they do not trust.

Color me confused. 

Not sure who qualifies under the "vocal chorus" heading, but I think the people who actually gave reports on the condition of their new purchase are doing everyone a favor. To suggest they'd get any enjoyment out of the debacle strikes me as weird.

In the same way you look at reviews on Amazon, it is helpful to see the buyer's perspective on the product. Otherwise, all you have is the glossy catalog and marketing blurbs from the manufacturer to rely on. Forum members helping forum members with valid information is the value of this venue in my humble opinion. I'd think fellow forum members would be empathetic to these scenarios given the common love of the hobby. So to those who simply reported on a disappointing purchase and the flaws in the product received, thank you for the heads up.

The rest of the posts about people who run the toy company, where the products are manufactured, judging why someone buys a product to begin with, local hobby shops (by the way, what are those?), etc ... eh.

Well, my very narrow point was this: People get disappointed over and over and continue to buy, often preordering very expensive trains sight unseen. Only to be disappointed again. Does that make sense to you? It doesn't to me.

And I do agree with you about information sharing here on the forum.  It benefits all.

irish rifle posted:

I am sorry to hear about all the problems my colleagues on the Forum have been having with the scale Polar Express cars. I wish I could say I am surprised, but I am not. I have noticed a steep decline in the design and quality of the products at Lionel over the past few years. The Polar Express fiasco is just the latest example. I could give many examples of these failures, but you are all familiar with them. And things are getting worse. Quite frankly, I am not interested in excuses at this point. As someone who has worked in the corporate world for over 35 years, most of that time in senior leadership roles, it is perfectly obvious that the current Lionel management team, from Mr. Hitchcock down, has been an abysmal failure and is driving Lionel into the ground. There is nothing personal about this - it is cold hard fact. The management team is also completely out of touch with both its customers and its distributors. It needs to be replaced immediately. I have to believe that the ownership group, Wellspring Associates L.L.C., will recognize this and make the necessary changes before it is too late.

This should have been an easy production run because the engineering and tooling was from 5 years ago with bugs worked out of it.  Only thing needed was a reputable factory and some pre-consumer QC.  Somebody is making decisions that are not in the best interest of the consumer. 

None of us want to see anything bad happen to Lionel or the people that work for them.  However, some changes are needed.  Not quite 2 years ago the Lionel Amtrak Cabbage was released and consumers hammered the quality of it on this forum but within a day or two Dave Olson jumped in and acknowledged the issues.  I don't see that this time from either Dave  @Dave Olson or Ryan  @Conrail6358  

It's time for somebody at Lionel to try and save face. 

After reinstalling 3 journal caps I have to say:  I am really glad I bought this.  It is a very scale model of a make believe train for a fantasy movie.  Tint on windows should be a minor concern for a train with a hobo riding on top.  It uniqueness in trim etc. really represents a “toy” train well.  Just my opinion.  Hopefully on balance people are pleased with it, even though we are the QC for a mass produced item.  Individual inspection by manufacturers is not going to happen in the present and future.  We have to accept that or evolve into something else that meets or exceeds expectations.

johnstrains posted:

Mooner posted:

johnstrains posted:

Ray Lombardo posted:

Given all the negative Lionel issues reported here, it shocks me people buy this high end stuff without going to a store in person and inspecting each item to make sure it is undamaged and works correctly.  I guess it is more satisfying to be disappointed and then complain here?  It is an odd dynamic - I am not sure if the issues are as bad as they appear or if there is a vocal chorus that enjoys telling everyone how much they paid and how disappointed they are.  

I absolutely agree.

And always amazes me that many, not all, members of the "vocal chorus" are exactly the same people who post here about their latest preorders and purchases after being disappointed over and over.

I can do the math. People are spending tens of thousands of dollars on toy trains buying from a company they do not trust.

Color me confused. 

Not sure who qualifies under the "vocal chorus" heading, but I think the people who actually gave reports on the condition of their new purchase are doing everyone a favor. To suggest they'd get any enjoyment out of the debacle strikes me as weird.

In the same way you look at reviews on Amazon, it is helpful to see the buyer's perspective on the product. Otherwise, all you have is the glossy catalog and marketing blurbs from the manufacturer to rely on. Forum members helping forum members with valid information is the value of this venue in my humble opinion. I'd think fellow forum members would be empathetic to these scenarios given the common love of the hobby. So to those who simply reported on a disappointing purchase and the flaws in the product received, thank you for the heads up.

The rest of the posts about people who run the toy company, where the products are manufactured, judging why someone buys a product to begin with, local hobby shops (by the way, what are those?), etc ... eh.

Well, my very narrow point was this: People get disappointed over and over and continue to buy, often preordering very expensive trains sight unseen. Only to be disappointed again. Does that make sense to you? It doesn't to me.

And I do agree with you about information sharing here on the forum.  It benefits all.

Lionel is the only company that is licensed to make Polar Express o gauge trains, there are no alternatives. They do an excellent job at marketing and publishing a catalog that shows their products in a very grand view, however the end result in this case was disappointing.

Lionel advertised a premium product exclusive only to them, sold it at a premium price, and fell short when it came to the delivered product. It's a different deal when you are talking about an SD70ACe in an NS paint scheme that can be had in o gauge by several others.

This particular product is being singled out and I believe rightfully so. We are learning about some potential fixes for some of the issues identified, and warning others what might be coming if you have an order on the way. I don't see a problem with that. I think by now Lionel has gotten the message about the disappoint with this particular run and hopefully they will respond soon.

I’d love to see some pics of these cars 

Bryant Dunivan 111417 posted:

After reinstalling 3 journal caps I have to say:  I am really glad I bought this.  It is a very scale model of a make believe train for a fantasy movie.  Tint on windows should be a minor concern for a train with a hobo riding on top.  It uniqueness in trim etc. really represents a “toy” train well.  Just my opinion.  Hopefully on balance people are pleased with it, even though we are the QC for a mass produced item.  Individual inspection by manufacturers is not going to happen in the present and future.  We have to accept that or evolve into something else that meets or exceeds expectations.

1. Glad to hear that. 

2. I know I'm in the minority when I say this, but I just don't get that. Make believe road names on scale models are a big source of discussion in the N scale world, given Micro Trains' penchant for releasing what the modelers call "foobies"..."To Each His Own". 

3. I think you're probably right: "...we are the QC for a mass produced item". That sums it up perfectly.

Mark in Oregon

It's time for the company men to come on board and "rah, rah" the product.  "There is nothing wrong." "Everything is fine."

Obviously the people who are having difficulty, opened the box incorrectly.

I am being sarcastic for those who do not recognize it. Over three years ago I told Dean and Mike Reagan that this would be happening when I had many issues with the $200K I purchased.  I warned them it would not be getting better.  Obviously, it will not be getting better.  Now you know too.  I recently suggested to Dean that Lionel suspend production until the Chinese factories can figure things out.  I called the problems "willful neglect", because the factories don't seem to care.

I care.  You care.  Dean cares.  He recently sent me a new-in-box C&O 2-6-6-2 #1522 to replace my Vision Line GG1 #4913 that had bad gears and could not be fixed after three trips to Lionel Service.  My new Lionel C&O 2-6-6-2 #1522 arrived factory-sealed, broken in the box. Dean has told me to get an RA to return the new engine for a refund on my Vision Line GG1 #4913.  There is not much more he can do.  I appreciate his attempts to find a solution.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

H1000 posted:

Lionel is the only company that is licensed to make Polar Express o gauge trains, there are no alternatives. They do an excellent job at marketing and publishing a catalog that shows their products in a very grand view, however the end result in this case was disappointing.

They obviously do an excellent job of brain-washing--er, marketing--if people continue to plop down big bucks for more trains when they are so often disappointed by the ones they have already bought.

Now understand:  I am very much a Lionel fan.  Almost all my trains are Lionel.  But the time has come for me to rethink that loyalty.  My own experience is less than stellar, and I am capable of learning from other people's experiences.  I am not willing to send good money after bad or take chances with scarce funds and chase endlessly after return authorizations and repair parts made of Unobtainium.  I am not obligated to enrich Lionel (or the Post Office, either).  If Lionel cannot provide working product most of the time (note, I didn't say ALL), then they SHOULD go out of business.  Or at least find owners/managers who can do the job.  And do the job HERE, not in Asia.

I have already abandoned a multi-generation family loyalty to Sears; Lionel could be next.

All that said, however, a significant fraction of the problem is the consumer demand for gizmos, gee-whiz-widgets, and imported Italian fragilees.  That ANY of those things survive the trip here and work at all is a minor miracle.  The problem is not all Lionel's fault.  Too many buyers demand the NEWEST, GREATEST, Whizz-Bangest every year, or they will not buy.  And then they complain because the NEWEST, GREATEST, Whizz-Bangest isn't perfect when it manages to survive long-distance, multimode transportation AND the baggage-crushers at FedUP Postal Service.

This hobby is supposed to be fun, right?

So give me my MPC and LTI and my old Marx:  they run, they run reliably, and they don't cost four mortgage payments and a dentist visit to buy.

That's just it though, this isn't the newest WHIZ bang thing. Lionel made the exact same thing 5 years ago and did a good job then, why not now? Surely, they should be able to repeat the experience after all they did it once before successfully.

If shipping a product is becoming a problem when delivering damaged trains, perhaps Lionel should look into logistics consulting to improve packaging or finding better ways to move product.

Case in point, in 1999 I bought 1998 used pickup. That  pickup was awesome, I absolutely loved it. I later found out that in 2003 the production for that model was ending and decided to buy a brand new right off the lot version of the same truck.

I test drove it, and as expected it ran pretty much the same. About two months in the troubles began. Little things mostly caused by cost cutting measures, I also noticed it too when I had the truck home and had more time to spend examining it. Again, little things, many of which didn't matter, but you could tell they were done to save money. Needles to say my 98 model built better, with more care and was a better vehicle. The 2003 even though it was the same model, with the same features, just didn't make the quality cut I expected. Now I still buy vehicles from this manufacture and have been extremely happy with my purchases since.

I agree with the loyalty thing, and willing to give someone a chance to make it right. Lionel has had plenty of chances to get things right and you're right, it starting to hurt that loyal base. I'm with you, I like to buy tried and true products that I know I can trust. Most of my locomotive power is now (used) Railking, the mechanics of the locos are simple, and haven't changed much if at all in years. MPC may not be Lionel's bright years, but they did run, and wasn't too hard to repair when needed.

First, thank you all for posting your concerns. Rather than engage immediately in the usual fray of comments that inevitably spring to the logical conclusion that only by firing Howard can we fix your trucks and save Christmas (insert sarcasm smiley face emoji icon here), I've spent some time personally looking into the truck and what needs to be done to fix the journals and  assess the scope of the problem and corrective actions for the manufacturing team. 

To the immediate problem of the 18" passenger cars discussed in this thread:  The most common issue appears to be journal covers coming off. 

Having not repaired one of these trucks yet myself, I took this opportunity to teach myself by breaking one so I could learn what fails. I'm good at breaking stuff as you all know (no sarcasm emoji needed - totally true!!) I've attached a write up that explains how to replace these journals. In the photos that I have seen, most fall into the easy-to-repair category of a cover that just fell off. However, in breaking my car here, I found it very easy to also damage the back half of the journal. There is a big difference between a part which comes dislodged by rough handling on its journey around the globe and a five-thumbed brute prying it off with a screwdriver - so hopefully most of you will find you can fix this faster than you can read this lengthy post. So before sending your cars back, please check to see if in fact it is an easy fix - you'll save yourself a lot of time and be back to running trains.

I do not recommend adding any glue to these parts! They are designed for a press fit and to move up and down in the truck sideframe. However, if you have one that just won't seem to stay on and you want to give it a try, you'll see in the attached pdf where I would suggest the SMALLEST drop of glue. 

If your trucks or cars are broken in any other way, please contact us via phone or email and send your car in for repair or contact your dealer/service center if you prefer. This includes if you have a small break on the back half of the journal. You can't take the sideframes off without taking the truck off of the car and that requires a lot of disassembly. While not difficult, there are a lot of hard to find screws and lots of ways to make a simple problem worse if you don't know what you're doing. We do experience our highest call volumes of the year this week. Please allow for a little more time than usual for your calls, but we will get to you and we will make it right.

I have already reached out to our factory teams about this issue. We are going to take a look at the assembly process and pieces to see what, if anything, changed since the previous runs of these trucks to cause the increased frequency of problems. From the types of damage shown and described so far, it seems that most of this occurred somewhere between the factory and your home - ie shipping. So we're also taking a look at the packaging on these cars to see what can be improved on our end there as well so that 2019 deliveries do not repeat the same mistakes.

We are still assessing the volume of cars affected. As of this morning, we have had one call and one email (from a dealer) to our customer service line about the issue and I have been working with one of our largest dealers to assess the situation on their end as well. It is too early to say the full scope of the percentage of cars impacted. It appears to be higher than normal, but also far from a majority of the production run. Keep in mind, we just shipped A LOT of passenger cars. Even if the fall out rate is still the usual small percentage, we're going to see more of it when the production run is so much larger. Add in the holidays and getting an accurate picture of the damage can take a few days or weeks.

Thank you as always for your support, concerns and patience and best wishes for a happy 2019.

I don't want to be a Lionel basher, and I don't think I have been. Like Rick, my last five Legacy engines have been fine out of the box, though I only buy one per year on average. I probably just jinxed myself.

Perhaps rolling stock is made in a different factory/city/province of China. Whatever the case, something went amiss for the latest round of scale heavyweights.

Conrail6358 posted:

First, thank you all for posting your concerns. Rather than engage immediately in the usual fray of comments that inevitably spring to the logical conclusion that only by firing Howard can we fix your trucks and save Christmas (insert sarcasm smiley face emoji icon here), I've spent some time personally looking into the truck and what needs to be done to fix the journals and  assess the scope of the problem and corrective actions for the manufacturing team. 

To the immediate problem of the 18" passenger cars discussed in this thread:  The most common issue appears to be journal covers coming off. 

Having not repaired one of these trucks yet myself, I took this opportunity to teach myself by breaking one so I could learn what fails. I'm good at breaking stuff as you all know (no sarcasm emoji needed - totally true!!) I've attached a write up that explains how to replace these journals. In the photos that I have seen, most fall into the easy-to-repair category of a cover that just fell off. However, in breaking my car here, I found it very easy to also damage the back half of the journal. There is a big difference between a part which comes dislodged by rough handling on its journey around the globe and a five-thumbed brute prying it off with a screwdriver - so hopefully most of you will find you can fix this faster than you can read this lengthy post. So before sending your cars back, please check to see if in fact it is an easy fix - you'll save yourself a lot of time and be back to running trains.

I do not recommend adding any glue to these parts! They are designed for a press fit and to move up and down in the truck sideframe. However, if you have one that just won't seem to stay on and you want to give it a try, you'll see in the attached pdf where I would suggest the SMALLEST drop of glue. 

If your trucks or cars are broken in any other way, please contact us via phone or email and send your car in for repair or contact your dealer/service center if you prefer. This includes if you have a small break on the back half of the journal. You can't take the sideframes off without taking the truck off of the car and that requires a lot of disassembly. While not difficult, there are a lot of hard to find screws and lots of ways to make a simple problem worse if you don't know what you're doing. We do experience our highest call volumes of the year this week. Please allow for a little more time than usual for your calls, but we will get to you and we will make it right.

I have already reached out to our factory teams about this issue. We are going to take a look at the assembly process and pieces to see what, if anything, changed since the previous runs of these trucks to cause the increased frequency of problems. From the types of damage shown and described so far, it seems that most of this occurred somewhere between the factory and your home - ie shipping. So we're also taking a look at the packaging on these cars to see what can be improved on our end there as well so that 2019 deliveries do not repeat the same mistakes.

We are still assessing the volume of cars affected. As of this morning, we have had one call and one email (from a dealer) to our customer service line about the issue and I have been working with one of our largest dealers to assess the situation on their end as well. It is too early to say the full scope of the percentage of cars impacted. It appears to be higher than normal, but also far from a majority of the production run. Keep in mind, we just shipped A LOT of passenger cars. Even if the fall out rate is still the usual small percentage, we're going to see more of it when the production run is so much larger. Add in the holidays and getting an accurate picture of the damage can take a few days or weeks.

Thank you as always for your support, concerns and patience and best wishes for a happy 2019.

Thanks Ryan for responding.  I have found that these journals often do not stay in place even after refitting them.  Not all, but some.  A TINY amount of CA is all that is required.  I encourage the gel type that allows some workability before applying activator.  I just got tired of finding them all over the layout.  My PE cars are first runs... so they have many MANY scale miles on them without another failure.

Thank you Ryan 

I am thinking about buying a set of these but after reading this thread I wanted to wait for the smoke to clear - you’ve set my mind at ease a bit 👍🏼

Thank you Ryan. Mine will be going back to Lionel next week for repairs. Can the green tinted windows be replaced with clear? If not it's not that big of a deal. My cars have missing parts, no loose journal covers that I have found. I am sending them all back so any issues can be corrected. I hope they go over them with a fine tooth comb.

I received my 5 car set yesterday and was dreading opening them after reading all the above. Here is what I found:  All of cars look good. No paint issues or roof issues. One of the cars had 4 journals off and they seemed to push in after I figured out how they work.  Another car has a lose table in it (rattles around) but I can live with that. My issues do seem to be shipping related. The blue/green window tint is odd. I haven't put them on the track yet so I don't know about lighting.  I plan on putting them on the track tonight along with the PE engine that I haven't tested yet either.

 It was very disappointing that the cars showed up after Christmas. Having a $1500 engine with no cars was poor execution on Lionel's part! They can blame who they want but it's Lionel's name on the box. 

I plan on letting Lionel know my concerns and If the journals pop back off I will send to lionel for repair.

Matt

Really sorry to hear of everyone's problems. All my trains are Lionel and I would never think of buying anything else.........But this Lionel of today is NOT the Lionel of past. Cheap China trains = Lionel 2018.

Thank you Ryan.

John Rowlen

All this is sad.   I got a 4 car disconnect set today in the mail that appears to be fine.  I sure hope so!   Now do I want to order a new engine?

Jim

Did anyone else receive theirs?

Peter Araujo posted:

Did anyone else receive theirs?

All 5 cars... Journals intact. Paint is fine, don't seem to have any of the problems listed in this thread. Received mine before Christmas.

Have I hit the lottery or are we just hearing from the squeaky wheels?  

My only problems are the known design inaccuracies with these heavyweights... green Window glazing and shortened observation deck.  I knew about these going in though. Otherwise they run well, light up, and trail that legacy loco beautifully.

Could we see some full view pictures of them?

I received my 5 cars yesterday and imediately inspected them.  Out of the 5 only one was ok.  I averaged 3 missing journals for each car and several globs of paint touch ups.  It actually looked like they used a Q-tip to glob it on for fine scratches, they should have just used a hammer.  All damaged cars had their plastic insert not snapped on the roof sections and the internal plastic cut along the bottom.  I also had loose tables rattling in observation cars.  What makes this even more difficult and troublesome is that I purchased this as a gift for my son and family for Christmas.  Lionel should really needs to make this rite for all involved.  Time will tell.

While it is nice to see Ryan chime in, (I actually feel sorry for Ryan, Dave and the other "front line" folks at Lionel that get stuck with this), the "sorry, send it in and we'll make it right" is just too little, too late.

I returned all 5 cars to my dealer today and purchased another MTH Premier diesel (perfect out of the box). After the Mogul, this, and my E6 Atlantic that originally would not run in conventional, was repaired and returned to me running but with substantial cosmetic damage, the "send it back, we'll make it right" just isn't cutting it. For the price of this stuff, it should be 100% perfect out of the box. FWIW, my H10 set I picked up at the same time as these cars has gotten several hours of running time. It was, and continues to be flawless and a real joy to run.

I have pretty much adopted a plan where, regardless of manufacturer, if it is not perfect out of the box, I get my $$$ back. Life is too short and I don't have the patience or time to be shipping this crap back and forth.

Good luck to those of you willing to stick it out on these. I'm done and over it.

smilesrs posted:

 Lionel should really needs to make this rite for all involved.  Time will tell.

Yes, time will tell.  FYI this thread has been on the front page for more than 6 days.  Did Lionel shut down for Christmas week?  Just sayin’.

Wow, morbid curiosity drove me to read the entirety of this this thread.   So sorry there has been so much unacceptable breakage and paintwork for you all.  

I was really admiring these cars -though it was never going to happen for me- and in a backwards way it does make me even more content with the simple O-27 conventional  (not Polar Express) my son has been enjoying under the tree for the last week or so.  

Also I just wanted to say that the fellow who arranged a loaner for his neighbor with the damaged standard Polar Express set is a gentleman and a credit to the hobby.

Conrail6358 posted:

First, thank you all for posting your concerns. Rather than engage immediately in the usual fray of comments that inevitably spring to the logical conclusion that only by firing Howard can we fix your trucks and save Christmas

Well maybe, at the very least ,the "Quality Assurance Team" Howard stated was in place should be fired and/or replaced.

If your trucks or cars are broken in any other way, please contact us via phone or email and send your car in for repair or contact your dealer/service center if you prefer. 

Emails go unanswered, and phone contact has seemingly endless hold times. Does anyone ever answer???

I have already reached out to our factory teams about this issue. We are going to take a look at the assembly process and pieces to see what, if anything, changed since the previous runs of these trucks to cause the increased frequency of problems. 

We are still assessing the volume of cars affected.  It is too early to say the full scope of the percentage of cars impacted. It appears to be higher than normal, but also far from a majority of the production run. Keep in mind, we just shipped A LOT of passenger cars. Even if the fall out rate is still the usual small percentage, we're going to see more of it when the production run is so much larger. Add in the holidays and getting an accurate picture of the damage can take a few days or weeks

I'll let Steven Tyler handle that last one:

Went on line tonight to look at these cars.  Put together a cart of five, and did NOT buy.

We need a new thread on OGR Forum called "Trains I did NOT buy today".  Please include the total money you did not spend.  I did not spend $950.00 today.  I did not buy the Bipolar Express 18" cars.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

SCAM & RIP OFF

RickO posted:

Conrail6358 posted:

If your trucks or cars are broken in any other way, please contact us via phone or email and send your car in for repair or contact your dealer/service center if you prefer. 

Emails go unanswered, and phone contact has seemingly endless hold times. Does anyone ever answer???

 

I guess everyone has their own experience but I called Lionel today to update my address. Assuming I may be on hold for a while, I sent an email with my info while on hold. The call was answered within 3 minutes, my email was responded to within 3 hours. I think that is not bad for a regular week none the less Christmas week.

SJC

My H10 has been running fine also, along with my K-line heavyweights.  Sometimes things just go wrong, I'm sure we hear from Lionel soon about this issue.  Has anyone tried calling Lionel?

carsntrains posted:

All this is sad.   I got a 4 car disconnect set today in the mail that appears to be fine.  I sure hope so!   Now do I want to order a new engine?

Jim

That’s the magic question that should turn the big L’s stomach......I’d like to see them grab this bull by the horns and put this to bed....it’s discussed in so many threads. It’s really getting to be a dark cloud on a forum that’s supposed to be fun.....Ryan; ....when people begin to question whether or not they should buy the next piece of equipment, instead of they are buying the next piece of equipment ...this should speak volumes, not phrases....carsntrains made it quite clear “Now do I order a new engine?”......The floor is yours, please get the powers to be involved and make a stand.....it’s time.......Pat

just recieved a Lionel 6-84826 Pennsylvania Heavyweight, Observation- Colonel Lindbergh from Charles Ro

Individual car brown outer shipping box, typical orange inner box, clear plastic 2 piece snap blister pack with car wrapped in plastic sheet and cardboard inserts to protect and keep truck assembly from moving. (Similar to some boxcar packaging).

Car has flawless paint, beautiful painted under carriage and trucks.  Shipped USPS, Massachusetts to Iowa...No..problems.

Sorry for the unfortunate experiences of others here.

But, Thank you Lionel and Charlie Ro.

My Lionel H-10 "Pennsylvania Lines #1709" and "Western Allegheny #85" run so well that I bought the "Pennsylvania H-10 #1288", but it is currently lost in the USPS system.  It was accepted early morning on the 27th and disappeared.  As of 1:00 A.M. on the 29th of December, 2018, it has not resurfaced.

The Lionel H-10 is the best engine I purchased in the last two years. Good job Lionel. Give the factory that manufactured this engine all your work.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

Received my scale pe coach yesterday from Ro. Journal  cap missing, glue smears on the windows and lights do not work (tried switch in both directions just in case they put them in backwards).

John, My Bellefonte Central H10 worked so well I bought the PRR Coal Hauler set but my  #1288 had a bent side rod. The dealer is replacing it.

John Rowlen posted:

My Lionel H-10 "Pennsylvania Lines #1709" and "Western Allegheny #85" run so well that I bought the "Pennsylvania H-10 #1288", but it is currently lost in the USPS system.  It was accepted early morning on the 27th and disappeared.  As of 1:00 A.M. on the 29th of December, 2018, it has not resurfaced.

The Lionel H-10 is the best engine I purchased in the last two years. Good job Lionel. Give the factory that manufactured this engine all your work.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

John, I have noticed the same thing with items I ordered off the Bay; don't think the USPS is consistent in scanning; on one item, it scanned at a local distribution point and stayed there for 3 days during the Christmas rush; others just showed up.

The Pennsylvania H-10 #1288 now shows it arrived at my post office on Saturday, December 29, 2018 in the morning.  Surprise!  I am hopeful this engine will be in good shape. The  #1288 engine has been the one H-10 with the most needs: new tender screws for Gunrunner John, and the side rod just reported. The only other H-10 issue was a noisy smoke fan on a Western Allegheny #85.  This is a very good engine.  I have been watching for posts.  My Western Allegheny pulls twelve Lionel 21" passenger cars easily.

At half the price of a 2-6-6-2, the H-10 has swinging Bell, Whistle Smoke and regular Stack Smoke.  The crew talk sounds a good too.  I love the whistle.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

John Rowlen posted:

The Pennsylvania H-10 #1288 now shows it arrived at my post office on Saturday, December 29, 2018 in the morning.  Surprise!  I am hopeful this engine will be in good shape. The  #1288 engine has been the one H-10 with the most needs: new tender screws for Gunrunner John, and the side rod just reported. 

You may want to reread Johns " new h10 assembled with power tools" thread.

It also had an incorrectly mounted board in the tender which was hitting the volume pot and cutting the wires. The wires to the electocoupler were nearly pulled out.

Additionally the access hatch doesn't sit flush on the 1288(incorrectly cast mounting posts) and some modification/ adjustment was needed there as well.

 Lastly,mine also had a wiring harness rubbing on the flywheel . A gentle tug on the wires going to the drawbar resolved this.

Good luck when it arrives, 

In the stteamlined era, I think the ATSF did use light green tinted windows...

Green windows for a heavyweight set?  As Mr. Spock would say:  NOT LOGICIAL!

RickO posted:

This can't be!!!..........

Howard Hitchcock stated on his last interview with Notch 6 that he had a QA team in place!!!!

 

Somewhere Mike Reagan is shaking his head.

Yea, your right Rick. But what he did not say was that his QC team was a couple of over worked twelve year olds who don't come in from the fields until after dark.

RickO,  Thank you for filling in the details on GunrunnerJohn's H-10 #1288.  I knew someone would.  I often get accused of being negative.  

The Pennsylvania #1288 is running perfectly. Three good engines in a row. Wow. That is some kind of record.

Another thread has a H-10 that's coupler overheated, heating the rear of the tender that burned the owner's hand.  Now that's serious damage.  I am checking all of my electro-couplers.

I bought four Pennsylvania 19" Heavyweight passenger cars: two Observations, a Diner and Central Park Sleeper.  Can't wait to see that they have loose Journal covers too.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

I put my 5 car collection on the track to test lighting and they all worked. HOWEVER, the observation car has a blue tint and the rest of the cars have the greenish tint? Am I special or are they all this way?

Matt

palallin posted:

All that said, however, a significant fraction of the problem is the consumer demand for gizmos, gee-whiz-widgets, and imported Italian fragilees.  That ANY of those things survive the trip here and work at all is a minor miracle.  The problem is not all Lionel's fault.  Too many buyers demand the NEWEST, GREATEST, Whizz-Bangest every year, or they will not buy.  And then they complain because the NEWEST, GREATEST, Whizz-Bangest isn't perfect when it manages to survive long-distance, multimode transportation AND the baggage-crushers at FedUP Postal Service.

 

I disagree with this.  It is 100% their fault.  We're talking about passenger cars not Visionline engines.  They offer a product, we expect it to work.  There is nothing wrong with that and I will accept zero responsibility for their failure to deliver.  Most of us receive technology laden items in the mail/FedEx/UPS.  Until recently, I lived in a rural area and received hundreds of shipments per year via Internet retailers.  I'm batting 1.000 on TV's, iPhones, iPads, MacBooks, computer monitors, high-end cameras & lenses, audio equipment, the list goes on and on.   You name it, not one failure out of the box.  If Lionel can't get it done, they just need to go away.

Picked up my reading and northern dome car, now I inspect everything b4 I take it home. Blemishes all over it, got another off the shelf, was much better condition, they packaged the other one up with yellow post its pointing out blemishes to send back to Lionel. My Conrail theatre car had a scratch on it too, and the  shop let me swap it for another 1.  So if your buying in person open it b4 you take it home. If your buying online I guess your sorta stuck

tom21pa posted:

Picked up my reading and northern dome car, now I inspect everything b4 I take it home. Blemishes all over it, got another off the shelf, was much better condition, they packaged the other one up with yellow post its pointing out blemishes to send back to Lionel. My Conrail theatre car had a scratch on it too, and the  shop let me swap it for another 1.  So if your buying in person open it b4 you take it home. If your buying online I guess your sorta stuck

Yep, that's most likely the case. No refund and hope your defective items get repaired properly.

I have 2 Lionel f40s, both had the flywheel cut thru the wires, one I sent thru the dealer repair & the other 1 went to Lionel, the one that went to dealer service came back fine, the one that went to Lionel came back with the wrong sounds, sent it back again, comes back with right sounds and marks from someone prying hatch off, and paint chipped, and the lift rings glued onto hatch with glue residue all over.  Totally unacceptable, it's like they don't even want your business the way you & your item is treated. Your screwed either way

I don't have a dog in this fight, as I run about 95% postwar Lionel these days after many QC issues with newer stuff.  That being said, the last few days I was browsing the internets looking to pick up 2 LC+ engines for my kids to enjoy on my postwar layout as they really like the sounds & the remote control makes it easy for them to run the trains.  Now the question is, do I buy them & hope nothing is wrong or just go with an MTH engine?  I should not have to worry if these engines will be working out of the box or if I have to take a drive up to Concord for repairs.   I'm not sure as of what to do, but this should be concerning to Lionel. This is money out of their bottom line & I'm sure I'm not the only person who feels this way.  The only way a company learns is if you don't buy their products.  

BTW - green tint on passenger car windows (and I'm surprised nobody has mentioned it yet) Metra has them on their passenger cars. 

So what is the reason you keep buying Lionel if it's so bad. I used to be a Lionel fan too but I gave up on  them a long time ago. I have a lot of tmcc but only one legacy engine. I used to spend about 30,000.00 a year on engines and cars from all the manufacturers. 

 I guit Lionel when I went into a shop to buy the Lionel legacy big boy. It was sitting on the layout and the store owner was bragging how great it was. I said can I hear it run, he said well it doesn't work it was DOA. 

I went home thought about it and came to the conclusion that I wasn't going to fall into this cell phone mentality of upgrading every couple of years. What I have is good enough. I'm not going to be made a fool of. I guess Lionel doesn't miss a customer like me. A good portion of that 30k went to Lionel now it's zero. They should go back to making toy like trains they did a better job. 

I would never buy a bunch of passenger sets to just to make a good one. The would have to make it right that is all there is to it. 

Ex Lionel fan

Bob

beachhead2 posted:

I disagree with this.  It is 100% their fault.  We're talking about passenger cars not Visionline engines.  They offer a product, we expect it to work.  There is nothing wrong with that and I will accept zero responsibility for their failure to deliver.  Most of us receive technology laden items in the mail/FedEx/UPS.  Until recently, I lived in a rural area and received hundreds of shipments per year via Internet retailers.  I'm batting 1.000 on TV's, iPhones, iPads, MacBooks, computer monitors, high-end cameras & lenses, audio equipment, the list goes on and on.   You name it, not one failure out of the box.  If Lionel can't get it done, they just need to go away.

You are comparing apples and orangutans.   The design requirements for the trains differ significantly from the electronics you mention. 

I am not carrying any water for Lionel, here, but recognition of the sources of the problem is needed before they can be fixed.

palallin posted:

beachhead2 posted:

I disagree with this.  It is 100% their fault.  We're talking about passenger cars not Visionline engines.  They offer a product, we expect it to work.  There is nothing wrong with that and I will accept zero responsibility for their failure to deliver.  Most of us receive technology laden items in the mail/FedEx/UPS.  Until recently, I lived in a rural area and received hundreds of shipments per year via Internet retailers.  I'm batting 1.000 on TV's, iPhones, iPads, MacBooks, computer monitors, high-end cameras & lenses, audio equipment, the list goes on and on.   You name it, not one failure out of the box.  If Lionel can't get it done, they just need to go away.

You are comparing apples and orangutans.   The design requirements for the trains differ significantly from the electronics you mention. 

I am not carrying any water for Lionel, here, but recognition of the sources of the problem is needed before they can be fixed.

Let’s face the facts, It doesn’t take a “rocket surgeon” to identify the problem(s).

Christopher2035 posted:

I don't have a dog in this fight, as I run about 95% postwar Lionel these days after many QC issues with newer stuff.  That being said, the last few days I was browsing the internets looking to pick up 2 LC+ engines for my kids to enjoy on my postwar layout as they really like the sounds & the remote control makes it easy for them to run the trains.  Now the question is, do I buy them & hope nothing is wrong or just go with an MTH engine?

Lionchief stuff is of even lower quality than the scale stuff. Get them a Railking locomotive that is built to the same standards as the premier line aside from porportions and detail. Hollow axles have already been reported in Lionels Lionchief line, supposedly this was changed, but why chance it?

  I'm not the only person who feels this way.  The only way a company learns is if you don't buy their products.  

Nope, I'm 100% modern Lionel as far as locomotives go and I'm on the brink of beginning to swap things out for MTH. I don't want a bunch of paper weights in the next 5 years.

 BTW - green tint on passenger car windows (and I'm surprised nobody has mentioned it yet) Metra has them on their passenger cars. 

Yes Metra.... absolutely!.... but on a steam era heavyweight.......not so much.

Strummer posted:

I feel bad for all you who have had issues with your purchase(s), I really do. There's no excuse for such shoddy workmanship (or lack thereof) but...I have to ask (and I wouldn't be surprised if I get kicked off this forum for asking this):

Why on earth are you willing to spend $200(!) each on what are basically "fantasy" cars from an importer whose QC issues are common and very well known?

You can often find nice Walthers cars (built or unbuilt) at shows etc., for around $40-$50; have the fun of building them yourself, pick up some trucks (always easy to find), paint them, find someone to make you some decal sets, and there you are. I mean heck, if you have to spend the time to basically re-build these imported "R-T-Rs" anyway, why not just build 'em yourself, save some $$ and avoid the angst?

I know, "to each his own", but I just don't get it...and no offense was intended.

Mark in Oregon

 

Um because Mark in Oregon, not many can make a professional looking car even from a kit. Not many can give a professional looking paint job. And the blue paint is tough to match! Who is making the Polar Express decals anyway?

If it's Soo easy to build a walthers kit, how come one sees a lot of pre assembled junk on da bay? 

Which Walthers would be the most accurate to kit bash into PE observation...and coach cars?

Ive stopped purchasing Lionel items.

I personally can tollerate screws or parts that werent glued on all the way and fall off. That happnens with all manufactures across the spectrum. But the paint...the paint colors have not been correct on any model and I mean every model that they have produced the last 4 years. I’m not playing favorites to a particular railroad. The only thing they can get right is black. Every Great Northern paint schemed loco doesn’t match the previous release of a GN item... one of these days ill have to line them all up and take a picture. 

I hope someone at Lionel see’s this thread.

Someone should email them a link to it..