Scale Polar Express Lionel cars - Santa is NOT happy!

Well, I’ve heard it called before a tinkerer’s hobby.  Happy tinkering!  

I’m setting up my prewar standard gauge layout on the floor as soon as I clean it, tomorrow.  That’s more my speed.  Trains over 90 years old still running like new.  I bailed after TMCC.  Too much stress.  Who needs it.  It’s a freakin toy train.  Best left at that.  Cheers,       W1

H1000 posted:

Bill Webb posted:

Received five PE blue cars. Every car was defective. Journal caps, screws, etc, some in the box and others simply missing. The plate under one car simply fell off in my hand. It was so bad that we didn’t look at anything else.

Received three gold PE coaches. Paint on the second was marred. At this point we were six unacceptable and one okay after a cursory inspection, one unopened.

We simply packed them away.

Also received a new LionChief plus steamer Thursday; the controller was DOA out of the box and the Bluetooth wouldn’t stay connected for one lap around the track. 42 people witnessed that fiasco when we tried it out a Saturday night.

My wife is beyond livid as our grandchildren were included in this mess. Her comments would be considered bashing and I do not want to be offensive to anyone. I would like to respectfully and politely ask the folks at Lionel to get their house in order. It is harming the hobby.

 

 

 

 

I had a neighbor stop by earlier this afternoon with a new RTR Polar Express set that wouldn't run. He said the remote was DOA and the app would only connect for about 5 minutes and then disconnect and leave the train chirping.  By the time he came to me had already spent the better half of (Christmas) morning trying to get it working. 

We tried four different devices with the app and got the same results. I offered a universal remote which did operate the engine without issue but he declined and said this thing is going back. I then offered one of my "Patch Together" salvage engines for his kids to play with just so they wouldn't be discourage about getting a train in the future and I was happy that he did take that home. Hopefully they aren't turned off from toy trains permanently.

With this RTR set costing just over $300, I'd expect a better out-of-box experience.

 

I had a similar experience with my polar express Bluetooth set.  I have decided to take it back and get out of it, broke down on Christmas day after running about an hour.  Big let down and too much stress.  Perhaps I will pursue a conventional set for the tree..it was fun for a bit..

Paul Kallus posted:

I finally figured out how to open the end to find the source of rattle, loose chairs and tables.

Paul, how did you get the ends off??  Maybe a few pics? 

I have replaced the trucks on 3 previous generation PE heavies (paint was perfect, truck stabilizer bars broken) - not hard.  What made it easy are the extra long power and ground leads on the trucks; beware of the truck C-clip - not sprung metal, soft metal and bends open).

Rick, to remove end caps, you have to remove bottom screws and the secret is a screw on top inside of vestibule that needs to be removed - from inserting screwdriver under car.

I've since found more defects in my cars. Two ends (vestibules) in two cars were glued together while not locked together correctly - result is a crooked end of car. There's no fix to this as they were solvent glued without being snapped completely together.

I found one truck side frame is falling off. To fix, the chassis has to be removed and the truck dropped - then you can access screws to fasten. A time-consuming PITA.

I've messed around with the journal covers...they can be put back in IF the bushings are inside truck frame. If bushings came out of inside of frame, then popping the covers back on will only result in them popping back off whenever the leaf spring is actuated. I don't know how to secure the bushings - they ride up and down in the frame so I don't think gluing them would work? My new PRSL heavyweights had the same issue (2 out of 4 cars).

I don't know if the truck design is faulty or if its assembly, casting problems, or what. One thing I am sure of is whoever assembled these cars did a poor job.

The other thing I thought of is how long will the good cars roll before their bushings come out and journal covers pop off?

I never thought of checking if the lighting works in the cars until now. Has anyone checked if the lighting works in their cars?

RickM46 posted:

Paul Kallus posted:

Is there a layperson fix to the issues or will they require being sent for repairs, or is it so bad only replacement trucks will do? I have a set of these plus the PRSL cars on order...kind of dreading what should be a fun experience.

I agree its unacceptable given the price of these cars. Unfortunately, fixing trains that are new out of the box has become part of the overall hobby experience, and a negative one at that.

If you go with replacing the trucks, it's a piece of cake and is easy using P.E. replacement trucks - 'Black trucks - 6205506050 - $32 each' when Lionel stocks them (I checked, they are in stock).  Done 3, have tips.

So you purchased a $200 car and then $64 of trucks to fix it?

So you purchased a $200 car and then $64 of trucks to fix it?

Yep; I knew the following when I got into the hobby in 2014: Lionel products from China would be iffy; unbox, send back to Lionel, repair yourself, were part of the hobby; the latter will exist for the time being;  if you want to play you got to pay; only a few nations are fanatics for precision, quality, consistency.

Might give a run at Marklin.

RickM46 posted:

So you purchased a $200 car and then $64 of trucks to fix it?

Yep; I knew the following when I got into the hobby in 2014: Lionel products from China would be iffy; unbox, send back to Lionel, repair yourself, were part of the hobby; the latter will exist for the time being;  if you want to play you got to pay; only a few nations are fanatics for precision, quality, consistency.

That's why we have issues.  If folks don't bother to hold manufacturers accountable they have no incentive to fix.  They just sit back and laugh all the way to the bank.

-Greg

RickM46 posted:

So you purchased a $200 car and then $64 of trucks to fix it?

Yep; I knew the following when I got into the hobby in 2014: Lionel products from China would be iffy; unbox, send back to Lionel, repair yourself, were part of the hobby; the latter will exist for the time being;  if you want to play you got to pay; only a few nations are fanatics for precision, quality, consistency.

Weren't these cars under warranty? If they were Lionel would have paid for the trucks. Then again the replacements are the same as the broken ones and will surely break again. The older ones are falling apart due to zinc pest. I'd be looking at ones from other manufacturers. MTH had one bad year for trucks (2005) and I have not heard of Williams trucks failing and their complete cars can for 25 bucks on the auction sites.

Pete

Weren't these cars under warranty?

Nope. 

I'd rather be ice fishing posted:

H1000 posted:

Bill Webb posted:

Received five PE blue cars. Every car was defective. Journal caps, screws, etc, some in the box and others simply missing. The plate under one car simply fell off in my hand. It was so bad that we didn’t look at anything else.

Received three gold PE coaches. Paint on the second was marred. At this point we were six unacceptable and one okay after a cursory inspection, one unopened.

We simply packed them away.

Also received a new LionChief plus steamer Thursday; the controller was DOA out of the box and the Bluetooth wouldn’t stay connected for one lap around the track. 42 people witnessed that fiasco when we tried it out a Saturday night.

My wife is beyond livid as our grandchildren were included in this mess. Her comments would be considered bashing and I do not want to be offensive to anyone. I would like to respectfully and politely ask the folks at Lionel to get their house in order. It is harming the hobby.

 

 

 

 

I had a neighbor stop by earlier this afternoon with a new RTR Polar Express set that wouldn't run. He said the remote was DOA and the app would only connect for about 5 minutes and then disconnect and leave the train chirping.  By the time he came to me had already spent the better half of (Christmas) morning trying to get it working. 

We tried four different devices with the app and got the same results. I offered a universal remote which did operate the engine without issue but he declined and said this thing is going back. I then offered one of my "Patch Together" salvage engines for his kids to play with just so they wouldn't be discourage about getting a train in the future and I was happy that he did take that home. Hopefully they aren't turned off from toy trains permanently.

With this RTR set costing just over $300, I'd expect a better out-of-box experience.

 

I had a similar experience with my polar express Bluetooth set.  I have decided to take it back and get out of it, broke down on Christmas day after running about an hour.  Big let down and too much stress.  Perhaps I will pursue a conventional set for the tree..it was fun for a bit..

Update from my Neighbor:

He bought the set last month while in Kansas. He called the shop where he bought asking for a refund, because the set was purchased more than 30 days ago, they would have to charge a restocking fee (not to mention the shipping charges to return the item).  Then he asked if they could fix it, and got the good ol' call Lionel service because they are not an authorized service center.

Next was his call to Lionel support, they did some of the basic troubleshooting that had already been performed and determined the set needs to be returned. An RMA tag and shipping label were issued, and he was told it would be 4 to 6 weeks before the set would be returned.

Needless to say, he is not happy. He commented that if you buy these things for Christmas, you better plan on keeping your tree up until valentines day to actually have a train run around it.

I wished him a happy valentines day and told him he can keep my loaner set for as long as he wants.

This may be an exaggeration here, but considering all of the issues Lionel has been having with their products and judging by how frustrated people seem to be getting with Lionel about the newer products in the last 3-4 years, we may be seeing Lionel's lowest point since the MPC era. If it hasn't already, we may be on our way towards Lionel's lowest point in its history so far, surpassing the MPC era. Sure, all of their products look and sound sharper/nicer/better/etc. compared to the MPC era. However, I'm sure the overall reliability physically, electrically, and mechanically speaking might be a different story...

TrainMasterMark posted:

This may be an exaggeration here, but considering all of the issues Lionel has been having with their products and judging by how frustrated people seem to be getting with Lionel about the newer products in the last 3-4 years, we may be seeing Lionel's lowest point since the MPC era. If it hasn't already, we may be on our way towards Lionel's lowest point in its history so far, surpassing the MPC era. Sure, all of their products look and sound sharper/nicer/better/etc. compared to the MPC era. However, I'm sure the overall reliability physically, electrically, and mechanically speaking might be a different story...

It seems you've made some valid observations. Given the most recent onslaught of defective items mentioned on this site, I took a look at some other forums that focus mostly on other scales, just to see if those folks are experiencing similar issues with their trains.

I think it's probably safe to assume that (for the most part) new items are now made in China, so all things being equal, one would expect to see more of the same, regardless of scale.

I found that (for the most part anyway), the sheer volume of issues we're seeing here in O/O27 is much greater than in HO, N or other scales. Sure, there certainly have been some notable "missteps" (the N scale Athearn Challenger comes to mind), and there have been some other problems, but I'm not seeing them with the same frequency as here.

Could be that the "plug and play" approach (although perhaps becoming the norm in all scales) is more prevalent here in O/O27; and perhaps there are more modelers in other scales willing to fix issues(?) as opposed to just sending them back, but these problems still get discussed on other forums.

All I know is there are always several (at least) on-going threads on this site about the most recent problems, usually blamed on QC issues; what I don't know is how this may effect future (and current) modelers, importers, and the hobby in general.

Here's hoping for a better 2019...

Mark in Oregon

I'll take MPC any day over what's coming in now.

So the green window tint... 

This was the same on the last heavyweights wasn't it? It seems like such a weird decision... but perhaps it's just a holdover from some other heavyweight that defaults with green window tint?

Which heavyweight line is this Polar Express derived from for Lionel?

I may be replacing those windows and I may be doing the alteration to the back that Cand0/Keith did. Tinkerers hobby to be sure.  

Charles Ro is sending a pickup request via Fedex to pick up my damaged cars. I am appreciative of this service. I gathered from talking to Charles and Butch that we here on the forum are on the front-end of this, since the cars were just released a week ago. At this early time, replacements are not a viable option as the replacements may have the same issues. I am willing to wait assuming Lionel takes the lead on helping dealers resolve this.

Between my PE blue and red cars, gold PE cars, and PRSL cars, 10 out of 22 need to go back. And, out of the 12 I am keeping as-is I was able to fix about half of that lot. It was a huge order for me and am feeling like I have "sucker" written on my forehead. I've been active in the hobby more or less since 1998 and this is the lowest I've experienced, and I've seen a LOT of QC problems in the last twenty years.

Lionel needs to figure things out sooner than later.

I doubt there will be any government bailout for them when folks stop buying.

I feel sorry for Dean, Ryan, and Dave.

I bet it's tuff for them to get up and go to work everyday.

They get the brunt of the heat for corporate Lionels bad decisions.

TrainMasterMark posted:

This may be an exaggeration here, but considering all of the issues Lionel has been having with their products and judging by how frustrated people seem to be getting with Lionel about the newer products in the last 3-4 years, we may be seeing Lionel's lowest point since the MPC era. If it hasn't already, we may be on our way towards Lionel's lowest point in its history so far, surpassing the MPC era. Sure, all of their products look and sound sharper/nicer/better/etc. compared to the MPC era. However, I'm sure the overall reliability physically, electrically, and mechanically speaking might be a different story...

From what I read on this forum - you are right about today's Lionel problems &  the folks at Lionel need to make a "group visit" to a proctologist.   On the other hand, there is MTH - note a lot less complaints about their products.  MPC had its good side & not so good side, BUT if no MPC era - than no Lionel at all today.

The green tinted windows are a two-piece film and plastic.  I had to replace them on my Pennsylvania cars because there were tiny little bubbles forming between the green film and the plastic.

Cue music: "Tiny Bubbles".

I have been reading this thead while my 1947 Berkshire (with its original motor) does it circuit around the Christmas tree, pulling eight baby Madison cars (late 80s vintage with my custom railroad name on each).  Am astounded at all the issues being described with what should be the latest and greatest  from a once storied manufacturer, which apparently has gone completely over to the dark side of commercial practice.  Specifically,  charging top dollar while outsourcing everything to foreign sweatshops that produce flawed products.  Or put more bluntly, Lionel is going to learn the hard way how quickly brand reputations can decline once their market realizes the company no longer cares about the quality of their products. .   

Very simple solution.... STOP BUYING... do NOT pre-order. 

Given all the negative Lionel issues reported here, it shocks me people buy this high end stuff without going to a store in person and inspecting each item to make sure it is undamaged and works correctly.  I guess it is more satisfying to be disappointed and then complain here?  It is an odd dynamic - I am not sure if the issues are as bad as they appear or if there is a vocal chorus that enjoys telling everyone how much they paid and how disappointed they are.  

My local Lionel Dealer won't bring the high end engines into his store. How can I see them?  How can I inspect them?  He only sells starter sets and older Lionel from when I was a kid.

His store is no longer an Authorized Lionel Service Station.

One of Lionel's Top Ten Dealers closed his Service Station a year ago.  Where can you go for service?  If you find somewhere, they are backlogged for months and not taking new work at this time.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

I am sorry to hear about all the problems my colleagues on the Forum have been having with the scale Polar Express cars. I wish I could say I am surprised, but I am not. I have noticed a steep decline in the design and quality of the products at Lionel over the past few years. The Polar Express fiasco is just the latest example. I could give many examples of these failures, but you are all familiar with them. And things are getting worse. Quite frankly, I am not interested in excuses at this point. As someone who has worked in the corporate world for over 35 years, most of that time in senior leadership roles, it is perfectly obvious that the current Lionel management team, from Mr. Hitchcock down, has been an abysmal failure and is driving Lionel into the ground. There is nothing personal about this - it is cold hard fact. The management team is also completely out of touch with both its customers and its distributors. It needs to be replaced immediately. I have to believe that the ownership group, Wellspring Associates L.L.C., will recognize this and make the necessary changes before it is too late.

Laidoffsick posted:

Very simple solution.... STOP BUYING... do NOT pre-order. 

Which is what I was saying yesterday in the now deleted thread.

Constant complaints about Lionel QC (or lack there of), production problems, wrong paint colors, defective parts, and company mismanagement.

Next step =  Buy more and more high-end trains spending thousands of dollars per year.

Ray Lombardo posted:

Given all the negative Lionel issues reported here, it shocks me people buy this high end stuff without going to a store in person and inspecting each item to make sure it is undamaged and works correctly.  I guess it is more satisfying to be disappointed and then complain here?  It is an odd dynamic - I am not sure if the issues are as bad as they appear or if there is a vocal chorus that enjoys telling everyone how much they paid and how disappointed they are.  

Closest 4 dealers won't bring high end stuff in unless someone pre-orders.

I would have to drive 5 hours just to look... Dealer likely troubleshoots any problems before putting it on their layout anyway.

You know there was a Train Store in Coon Rapids, MN (just North of Minneapolis) that I purchased Lionel products from. When I moved out of the Area, I continued to buy from him! Every Engine was Lubed and Tested before shipment! All cars were inspected before shipped as well!

He was a fairly large Shop, but managed to find the time to do this! I purchased a great deal of product from him! Maybe these large Dealers should hire someone to do this!  Save the Customer a great deal of anguish & frustration!!!

Just saying!!

Fredstrains

Send them back to Lionel Service for repairs or refunds. Eventually Lionel will get the message.

Ray Lombardo posted:

Given all the negative Lionel issues reported here, it shocks me people buy this high end stuff without going to a store in person and inspecting each item to make sure it is undamaged and works correctly.  I guess it is more satisfying to be disappointed and then complain here?  It is an odd dynamic - I am not sure if the issues are as bad as they appear or if there is a vocal chorus that enjoys telling everyone how much they paid and how disappointed they are.  

I absolutely agree.

And always amazes me that many, not all, members of the "vocal chorus" are exactly the same people who post here about their latest preorders and purchases after being disappointed over and over.

I can do the math. People are spending tens of thousands of dollars on toy trains buying from a company they do not trust.

Color me confused. 

Before this thread gets closed, my 2 cents and the conundrum: I like the features of Legacy - my last 5 locos themselves are OK (AC9, Polar Exp, S3, USRA Pacific, H10); tenders, maybe from another factory - trucks needed adj.; cars from yet another factory; switch track from yet other factories.

The conundrum: the aforementioned foreign factories (about 7) are government owned, thusly, there is no competition toward excellence; clients have zero control and cannot enter and cannot influence production; make new factories here or Europe - get real, that ship has sailed; wouldn't want to be in Lionel mgmt.

Not buying just puts Lionel closer to out of business; I am at the Autumn of my years and want to enjoy Legacy; the possible extra load on MTH etc. will just produce the same volume results.

RickM46 posted:

Not buying just puts Lionel closer to out of business; I am at the Autumn of my years and want to enjoy Legacy; the possible extra load on MTH etc. will just produce the same volume results.

I could not disagree more.  Continuing to buy inferior products at high prices offers no incentive for Lionel to adddress the problems.

Lionel’s action, or lack there of, will determine if they fail or succeed.

johnstrains posted:

Ray Lombardo posted:

Given all the negative Lionel issues reported here, it shocks me people buy this high end stuff without going to a store in person and inspecting each item to make sure it is undamaged and works correctly.  I guess it is more satisfying to be disappointed and then complain here?  It is an odd dynamic - I am not sure if the issues are as bad as they appear or if there is a vocal chorus that enjoys telling everyone how much they paid and how disappointed they are.  

I absolutely agree.

And always amazes me that many, not all, members of the "vocal chorus" are exactly the same people who post here about their latest preorders and purchases after being disappointed over and over.

I can do the math. People are spending tens of thousands of dollars on toy trains buying from a company they do not trust.

Color me confused. 

Not sure who qualifies under the "vocal chorus" heading, but I think the people who actually gave reports on the condition of their new purchase are doing everyone a favor. To suggest they'd get any enjoyment out of the debacle strikes me as weird.

In the same way you look at reviews on Amazon, it is helpful to see the buyer's perspective on the product. Otherwise, all you have is the glossy catalog and marketing blurbs from the manufacturer to rely on. Forum members helping forum members with valid information is the value of this venue in my humble opinion. I'd think fellow forum members would be empathetic to these scenarios given the common love of the hobby. So to those who simply reported on a disappointing purchase and the flaws in the product received, thank you for the heads up.

The rest of the posts about people who run the toy company, where the products are manufactured, judging why someone buys a product to begin with, local hobby shops (by the way, what are those?), etc ... eh.

Mooner posted:

johnstrains posted:

Ray Lombardo posted:

Given all the negative Lionel issues reported here, it shocks me people buy this high end stuff without going to a store in person and inspecting each item to make sure it is undamaged and works correctly.  I guess it is more satisfying to be disappointed and then complain here?  It is an odd dynamic - I am not sure if the issues are as bad as they appear or if there is a vocal chorus that enjoys telling everyone how much they paid and how disappointed they are.  

I absolutely agree.

And always amazes me that many, not all, members of the "vocal chorus" are exactly the same people who post here about their latest preorders and purchases after being disappointed over and over.

I can do the math. People are spending tens of thousands of dollars on toy trains buying from a company they do not trust.

Color me confused. 

Not sure who qualifies under the "vocal chorus" heading, but I think the people who actually gave reports on the condition of their new purchase are doing everyone a favor. To suggest they'd get any enjoyment out of the debacle strikes me as weird.

In the same way you look at reviews on Amazon, it is helpful to see the buyer's perspective on the product. Otherwise, all you have is the glossy catalog and marketing blurbs from the manufacturer to rely on. Forum members helping forum members with valid information is the value of this venue in my humble opinion. I'd think fellow forum members would be empathetic to these scenarios given the common love of the hobby. So to those who simply reported on a disappointing purchase and the flaws in the product received, thank you for the heads up.

The rest of the posts about people who run the toy company, where the products are manufactured, judging why someone buys a product to begin with, local hobby shops (by the way, what are those?), etc ... eh.

Where the product is made and the circumstances in that country are 100% the problem.  How its dealt with is Lionel and MANY other companies problems.   Our government and our industries have made a deal with the devil, sending production to all these third world countries.  Now we are suffering for it. 

On the other hand their is a "vocal chorus" of folks complaining about the price of Lionel products that are at least somewhat made in America.   You can see that in many threads pimping Chinese made rolling stock.  Its on lose-lose situation.  

I'm no model train expert, but I do sell products that used to be made in America, that for years now are being made in China.  Shockingly the tide is turning and now we are seeing more and more product coming in made in the US and Canada!   There is hope!

Jim

Mooner posted:

johnstrains posted:

Ray Lombardo posted:

Given all the negative Lionel issues reported here, it shocks me people buy this high end stuff without going to a store in person and inspecting each item to make sure it is undamaged and works correctly.  I guess it is more satisfying to be disappointed and then complain here?  It is an odd dynamic - I am not sure if the issues are as bad as they appear or if there is a vocal chorus that enjoys telling everyone how much they paid and how disappointed they are.  

I absolutely agree.

And always amazes me that many, not all, members of the "vocal chorus" are exactly the same people who post here about their latest preorders and purchases after being disappointed over and over.

I can do the math. People are spending tens of thousands of dollars on toy trains buying from a company they do not trust.

Color me confused. 

Not sure who qualifies under the "vocal chorus" heading, but I think the people who actually gave reports on the condition of their new purchase are doing everyone a favor. To suggest they'd get any enjoyment out of the debacle strikes me as weird.

In the same way you look at reviews on Amazon, it is helpful to see the buyer's perspective on the product. Otherwise, all you have is the glossy catalog and marketing blurbs from the manufacturer to rely on. Forum members helping forum members with valid information is the value of this venue in my humble opinion. I'd think fellow forum members would be empathetic to these scenarios given the common love of the hobby. So to those who simply reported on a disappointing purchase and the flaws in the product received, thank you for the heads up.

The rest of the posts about people who run the toy company, where the products are manufactured, judging why someone buys a product to begin with, local hobby shops (by the way, what are those?), etc ... eh.

Well, my very narrow point was this: People get disappointed over and over and continue to buy, often preordering very expensive trains sight unseen. Only to be disappointed again. Does that make sense to you? It doesn't to me.

And I do agree with you about information sharing here on the forum.  It benefits all.

irish rifle posted:

I am sorry to hear about all the problems my colleagues on the Forum have been having with the scale Polar Express cars. I wish I could say I am surprised, but I am not. I have noticed a steep decline in the design and quality of the products at Lionel over the past few years. The Polar Express fiasco is just the latest example. I could give many examples of these failures, but you are all familiar with them. And things are getting worse. Quite frankly, I am not interested in excuses at this point. As someone who has worked in the corporate world for over 35 years, most of that time in senior leadership roles, it is perfectly obvious that the current Lionel management team, from Mr. Hitchcock down, has been an abysmal failure and is driving Lionel into the ground. There is nothing personal about this - it is cold hard fact. The management team is also completely out of touch with both its customers and its distributors. It needs to be replaced immediately. I have to believe that the ownership group, Wellspring Associates L.L.C., will recognize this and make the necessary changes before it is too late.

This should have been an easy production run because the engineering and tooling was from 5 years ago with bugs worked out of it.  Only thing needed was a reputable factory and some pre-consumer QC.  Somebody is making decisions that are not in the best interest of the consumer. 

None of us want to see anything bad happen to Lionel or the people that work for them.  However, some changes are needed.  Not quite 2 years ago the Lionel Amtrak Cabbage was released and consumers hammered the quality of it on this forum but within a day or two Dave Olson jumped in and acknowledged the issues.  I don't see that this time from either Dave  @Dave Olson or Ryan  @Conrail6358  

It's time for somebody at Lionel to try and save face. 

After reinstalling 3 journal caps I have to say:  I am really glad I bought this.  It is a very scale model of a make believe train for a fantasy movie.  Tint on windows should be a minor concern for a train with a hobo riding on top.  It uniqueness in trim etc. really represents a “toy” train well.  Just my opinion.  Hopefully on balance people are pleased with it, even though we are the QC for a mass produced item.  Individual inspection by manufacturers is not going to happen in the present and future.  We have to accept that or evolve into something else that meets or exceeds expectations.

johnstrains posted:

Mooner posted:

johnstrains posted:

Ray Lombardo posted:

Given all the negative Lionel issues reported here, it shocks me people buy this high end stuff without going to a store in person and inspecting each item to make sure it is undamaged and works correctly.  I guess it is more satisfying to be disappointed and then complain here?  It is an odd dynamic - I am not sure if the issues are as bad as they appear or if there is a vocal chorus that enjoys telling everyone how much they paid and how disappointed they are.  

I absolutely agree.

And always amazes me that many, not all, members of the "vocal chorus" are exactly the same people who post here about their latest preorders and purchases after being disappointed over and over.

I can do the math. People are spending tens of thousands of dollars on toy trains buying from a company they do not trust.

Color me confused. 

Not sure who qualifies under the "vocal chorus" heading, but I think the people who actually gave reports on the condition of their new purchase are doing everyone a favor. To suggest they'd get any enjoyment out of the debacle strikes me as weird.

In the same way you look at reviews on Amazon, it is helpful to see the buyer's perspective on the product. Otherwise, all you have is the glossy catalog and marketing blurbs from the manufacturer to rely on. Forum members helping forum members with valid information is the value of this venue in my humble opinion. I'd think fellow forum members would be empathetic to these scenarios given the common love of the hobby. So to those who simply reported on a disappointing purchase and the flaws in the product received, thank you for the heads up.

The rest of the posts about people who run the toy company, where the products are manufactured, judging why someone buys a product to begin with, local hobby shops (by the way, what are those?), etc ... eh.

Well, my very narrow point was this: People get disappointed over and over and continue to buy, often preordering very expensive trains sight unseen. Only to be disappointed again. Does that make sense to you? It doesn't to me.

And I do agree with you about information sharing here on the forum.  It benefits all.

Lionel is the only company that is licensed to make Polar Express o gauge trains, there are no alternatives. They do an excellent job at marketing and publishing a catalog that shows their products in a very grand view, however the end result in this case was disappointing.

Lionel advertised a premium product exclusive only to them, sold it at a premium price, and fell short when it came to the delivered product. It's a different deal when you are talking about an SD70ACe in an NS paint scheme that can be had in o gauge by several others.

This particular product is being singled out and I believe rightfully so. We are learning about some potential fixes for some of the issues identified, and warning others what might be coming if you have an order on the way. I don't see a problem with that. I think by now Lionel has gotten the message about the disappoint with this particular run and hopefully they will respond soon.

I’d love to see some pics of these cars 

Bryant Dunivan 111417 posted:

After reinstalling 3 journal caps I have to say:  I am really glad I bought this.  It is a very scale model of a make believe train for a fantasy movie.  Tint on windows should be a minor concern for a train with a hobo riding on top.  It uniqueness in trim etc. really represents a “toy” train well.  Just my opinion.  Hopefully on balance people are pleased with it, even though we are the QC for a mass produced item.  Individual inspection by manufacturers is not going to happen in the present and future.  We have to accept that or evolve into something else that meets or exceeds expectations.

1. Glad to hear that. 

2. I know I'm in the minority when I say this, but I just don't get that. Make believe road names on scale models are a big source of discussion in the N scale world, given Micro Trains' penchant for releasing what the modelers call "foobies"..."To Each His Own". 

3. I think you're probably right: "...we are the QC for a mass produced item". That sums it up perfectly.

Mark in Oregon

It's time for the company men to come on board and "rah, rah" the product.  "There is nothing wrong." "Everything is fine."

Obviously the people who are having difficulty, opened the box incorrectly.

I am being sarcastic for those who do not recognize it. Over three years ago I told Dean and Mike Reagan that this would be happening when I had many issues with the $200K I purchased.  I warned them it would not be getting better.  Obviously, it will not be getting better.  Now you know too.  I recently suggested to Dean that Lionel suspend production until the Chinese factories can figure things out.  I called the problems "willful neglect", because the factories don't seem to care.

I care.  You care.  Dean cares.  He recently sent me a new-in-box C&O 2-6-6-2 #1522 to replace my Vision Line GG1 #4913 that had bad gears and could not be fixed after three trips to Lionel Service.  My new Lionel C&O 2-6-6-2 #1522 arrived factory-sealed, broken in the box. Dean has told me to get an RA to return the new engine for a refund on my Vision Line GG1 #4913.  There is not much more he can do.  I appreciate his attempts to find a solution.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

H1000 posted:

Lionel is the only company that is licensed to make Polar Express o gauge trains, there are no alternatives. They do an excellent job at marketing and publishing a catalog that shows their products in a very grand view, however the end result in this case was disappointing.

They obviously do an excellent job of brain-washing--er, marketing--if people continue to plop down big bucks for more trains when they are so often disappointed by the ones they have already bought.

Now understand:  I am very much a Lionel fan.  Almost all my trains are Lionel.  But the time has come for me to rethink that loyalty.  My own experience is less than stellar, and I am capable of learning from other people's experiences.  I am not willing to send good money after bad or take chances with scarce funds and chase endlessly after return authorizations and repair parts made of Unobtainium.  I am not obligated to enrich Lionel (or the Post Office, either).  If Lionel cannot provide working product most of the time (note, I didn't say ALL), then they SHOULD go out of business.  Or at least find owners/managers who can do the job.  And do the job HERE, not in Asia.

I have already abandoned a multi-generation family loyalty to Sears; Lionel could be next.

All that said, however, a significant fraction of the problem is the consumer demand for gizmos, gee-whiz-widgets, and imported Italian fragilees.  That ANY of those things survive the trip here and work at all is a minor miracle.  The problem is not all Lionel's fault.  Too many buyers demand the NEWEST, GREATEST, Whizz-Bangest every year, or they will not buy.  And then they complain because the NEWEST, GREATEST, Whizz-Bangest isn't perfect when it manages to survive long-distance, multimode transportation AND the baggage-crushers at FedUP Postal Service.

This hobby is supposed to be fun, right?

So give me my MPC and LTI and my old Marx:  they run, they run reliably, and they don't cost four mortgage payments and a dentist visit to buy.