Any suggestions what would be the BETTER way to upgrade Williams engines, specifically a BRASS Niagara and assortment of traditional O gauge engines, to some of form of Command Control without breaking the bank? Also, any reputable people you can recommend to perform this work? There are just WAY too many posts to weed through...makes me dizzy. Thank you.
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I would just go with your preference, if you have one. Costs are not terribly different. I haven't used any of the forum members for such upgrades, but others will no doubt comment. At various times, I have read good things about GGG, Alex M and Gunrunner and there are likely others.
If your "traditional O gauge engines" have AC motors, the ERR AC Commander (which integrates with TMCC) is the only direct upgrade. Frank Timko offers a service to convert some traditional locos to a can motor and flywheel. A Timko conversion would then give you the alternative of installing Protosound 3, which is compatible with DCS.
Once any mechanical issues have been sorted out, Williams brass locos are generally smooth runners. A lot of folks on the Forum feel that they were geared too low from the factory and are unhappy with the motor noise at high speed. There are ways to quiet this noise: search for my posts on "DynaXorb." Pretty much any electronics can be installed in Williams brass with good results if you don't need a ton of top speed.
I personally prefer Lionel's handheld controllers, especially the CAB-2 (which unfortunately is now out of production and quite expensive on the secondary market.) The CAB-1L is okay and more affordable. Right now someone is selling a CAB-1L and receiver base in the "for sale" section of the Forum. If you think that you might prefer running your trains with a touchscreen device, then the controller isn't a decision factor, as both Lionel and MTH have phone apps.
In my experience, TMCC is more robust for multiple operators in real-world layout environments. It seems to be more tolerant of electrical noise, and various wiring schemes that apply to existing layouts. If you are building a layout from scratch, you could optimize the wiring so that it would work with DCS. Both systems have their challenges. For example, Lionel's system might require special provisions when tracks are very close together, or tightly stacked vertically such as a staging yard on a lower level.
There are a lot of folks on the Forum who have abundant experience performing command control upgrades, and they stay busy! You'll have to contact them individually to get a price and turn-around time, etc. Keep reading the various posts. Better still, visit another O-gauger who lives near you that has one of the systems to get hands-on experience with the benefits. Once people adopt command control, they usually never go back! Good luck in your journey!!
I have upgraded many brass engines from all the manufacterurs with both DCS and TMCC. How well the upgrade worked is 100% dependent on the installer. So get a good one. Of the several installers I have used in the past, the only one still active is Alex_M on the forum. His work is very good.
The only thing I can say about DCS vs TMCC is I have had signal issues with TMCC installs in brass engines due to, well, the brass. If the antenna system is not done right its response to inputs will be poor. Most isolate the tender shell and use it as the antenna but that needs to be done well to work.
Least expensive would be a TMCC install without sound or smoke. However, I like all the goodies and the last few installs had all of Gunrunnerjohn's add-ons, especially the smoke/chuff stuff. More money but more fun.
By the way, I no longer buy engines that need to be upgraded with command. An engine with factory installed components works better and usually has more capability. However, since you already own the engine it makes since to upgrade it.
I have upgraded a Williams Niagara using ERR a number of years ago. Not too hard but today the cost of components is significantly more than PS3 assuming you want synchronized puffing smoke. PS3 has everything you need including lights, coupler and tether and sound. You only need to add a fan smoke unit which you would need for TMCC as well. ERR is all a la carte.
Pete
I've done 2 ERR installs. Both were ground up builds. They are pretty straight forward. The antenna issues in steamers are something to be dealt with.
One was an AC Commander in a Lionel F3 with pullmor motors. The TMCC install was the easy part, I upgraded all the lighting to LED which took some time to get right.
I'm upgrading a MTH S2 with PS3/2 stacker boards at the moment. So far, it also looks plug and play (it was a PS2 engine).
The members mentioned above would be my go-to's if needed.
Bob
I have had several Williams brass locos (including my Niagara) converted to command control. The Niagara was converted to DCS, including a fan-driven smoke unit, and is one of my best / favorite runners. All but one of my Williams conversions have been DCS, with the other one being TMCC / ERR. Both systems work, but I prefer the way the DCS-equipped locos run. In each case, the stock motor had to be replaced, but that was a minor part of the overall cost.
My go-to guy for conversions informed me a short time ago that he is not taking on any new customers at this time; too bad, because the results are great, but also understandable.
Food for thought: conversions such as these won't, IMO, increase the loco's resale value by a significant amount. I had my Williams locos converted because I like them, run them frequently, and they are family heirlooms. But for that, I probably would not have had them converted.
I've recently been doing conversions to Lionel Legacy for some diesels that I had that were PS/1. With the recent price increases of the ERR stuff, I found that the diesel upgrades end up being just as cheap, though they're a bit more work as you have to fabricate all the cables.
You'll find it's much cheaper to tackle these yourself than shelling out the money to have them done.
Here's one Legacy upgrade example...
Hey @gunrunnerjohn....
It's stupid question time. These Lionel Legacy diesel conversions your doing. I'm guessing because you have to create your own wiring loom; the Legacy boards/components aren't available prepackaged from Lionel (think MTH PS3 Upgrade kit).
In other words one would have to know what components to order then have a wiring schematic available to create the wire loom.
This isn't a project for "weekend warriors"?
@Junior posted:It's stupid question time. These Lionel Legacy diesel conversions your doing. I'm guessing because you have to create your own wiring loom; the Legacy boards/components aren't available prepackaged from Lionel (think MTH PS3 Upgrade kit).
Correct, though I did take somewhat of a shortcut. I bought a bunch of pre-wired cables from AliExpress in all the sizes used for TMCC and Legacy, 1.25mm, 1.5mm, 2.0mm, and 2.5mm. I still have to crimp some pins, but it greatly reduces the workload of building cables. I then select an RCMC that has the features I need for the upgrade, and a sound board that's as close to the model I'm doing as possible. For instance, for the DDA40X I posted, I used the Lionel DDA35 board, they never made a DDA40X, so I obviously couldn't get one of those.
As for diagrams, Bruk did some excellent wiring diagrams for Legacy, here's a link to my post about them.
You are correct in assuming that you need to know your way around the Legacy boards in order to be successful in a venture like this. However, the net result is a nice running engine. 
@Junior posted:This isn't a project for "weekend warriors"?
Probably not.
Bruk won’t do Diesel upgrades to legacy and I forget the reason but you made it work @gunrunnerjohn. Nice work.
Loco upgrades are becoming quite common and requests for info appear often in the forum. The number of loco upgrade choices is very large like about 20. Most of these work well. Prices vary over a very wide range. The decision depends on what your preferences and inclinations are. Do you want to operate from a handheld controller or a smart device app? Are you interested in battery operation? How much customization of loco speed parameters would you like? Are light and sound offerings important? Aside from all that, Williams locos are generally good upgrade candidates.
@superwarp1 posted:Bruk won’t do Diesel upgrades to legacy and I forget the reason but you made it work @gunrunnerjohn. Nice work.
I talked to Bruk, he had an issue that I see with one of them, at very low speeds, it's jerky. It's like an MTH engine at 1 or 2 scale MPH, same effect. However, once the Legacy speed gets up to speed step 4-5, it smooths out. After seeing this, I sorted through my pile of RCMC boards and selected one that had minimal or no slow speed issues. Apparently, each board is tuned to a specific engine, probably explains why Legacy is so smooth from a dead stop and MTH is sometimes, but other models have the stutter at slow speeds.
@RailFan820 posted:Any suggestions what would be the BETTER way to upgrade Williams engines, specifically a BRASS Niagara and assortment of traditional O gauge engines, to some of form of Command Control without breaking the bank? Also, any reputable people you can recommend to perform this work? There are just WAY too many posts to weed through...makes me dizzy. Thank you.
I am faced with a similar situation and agree there is huge amount of information and opinions about how to upgrade.
Probably going to just muddy the water more. There are definitely guys that are not going for TMCC or DCS but upgrading to Dead Rail systems. One such system is called RailPro. These control the Locos with a hand held Radio Transmitter which controls an on board receiver. Uses the same basic technology as RC Planes, Boats and Cars. While most are going Dead Rail (Battery Powered) they can also work off of track power. This technology is 15 years newer than TMCC or DCS. The big advantage in my mind is DIRECT WIRELESS communication from the controller to the Loco.
BTW the 2023 low end of Lionel (Lionchief) uses a similar but stripped down version. Like I previously mentioned this is based on about 13 year old technology as opposed to nearly 30 year old technology.
Might want to check it out. Just my 2 cents.
Thank you ALL for your insight. I'll weigh my options. May just keep things stock.. not EVERYTHING needs smoke, lights, sound and remote control but it certainly makes things more fun.
I was going to mention RailPro, but the title of the post mentions TMCC and DCS.
In addition to RailPro, there's Airwire (a very similar system made by CVP Products), and Blunami by Soundtraxx. None of these systems require a "command base"; they are R/C or Bluetooth direct to the loco. If you're going to stick with AC on the rails (as opposed to battery on board), any of them would need a "helper circuit" to convert AC track power to filtered DC. The helper circuits can be purchased for little money, but it might be tough to fit everything in a small tender. Also for any of them, like TMCC you'll have to figure out a way to get the radio signal inside a metal locomotive or tender body.
One reason to consider these systems right now is that the command bases for the OEM systems (Lionel Legacy 990 base and MTH TIU) are both out of stock everywhere pending release of the next-generation hardware. Another benefit is that you'll be able to run the converted locos independently on pretty much any layout, and that will still be true even if you eventually get one of the OEM systems.
Most people already have several locos with the OEM command control electronics. So they're usually not willing to gut them, or spend money on another brand of controller just for a couple of locos. If you truly are starting from scratch with all conventional DC locos, given current market conditions the direct R/C systems deserve consideration. My $.02.
@RailFan820 posted:Thank you ALL for your insight. I'll weigh my options. May just keep things stock.. not EVERYTHING needs smoke, lights, sound and remote control but it certainly makes things more fun.
Your trains, you do what interests you. Options galore.
@RailFan820 posted:.. not EVERYTHING needs smoke, lights, sound and remote control ....
YES THEY DO! I know, that is just me. As they say, "your railroad..."
The loco control landscape has certainly become interesting.
@RailFan820 posted:Any suggestions what would be the BETTER way to upgrade Williams engines, specifically a BRASS Niagara and assortment of traditional O gauge engines, to some of form of Command Control without breaking the bank? Also, any reputable people you can recommend to perform this work? There are just WAY too many posts to weed through...makes me dizzy. Thank you.
Since no one has asked, do you have any command control engines now along with a means to control them? Control systems these days can cost a considerable amount of money and could play into your decision.
Pete
@Ted S posted:I was going to mention RailPro, but the title of the post mentions TMCC and DCS.
In addition to RailPro, there's Airwire (a very similar system made by CVP Products), and Blunami by Soundtraxx. None of these systems require a "command base"; they are R/C or Bluetooth direct to the loco. If you're going to stick with AC on the rails (as opposed to battery on board), any of them would need a "helper circuit" to convert AC track power to filtered DC. The helper circuits can be purchased for little money, but it might be tough to fit everything in a small tender. Also for any of them, like TMCC you'll have to figure out a way to get the radio signal inside a metal locomotive or tender body.
One reason to consider these systems right now is that the command bases for the OEM systems (Lionel Legacy 990 base and MTH TIU) are both out of stock everywhere pending release of the next-generation hardware. Another benefit is that you'll be able to run the converted locos independently on pretty much any layout, and that will still be true even if you eventually get one of the OEM systems.
Most people already have several locos with the OEM command control electronics. So they're usually not willing to gut them, or spend money on another brand of controller just for a couple of locos. If you truly are starting from scratch with all conventional DC locos, given current market conditions the direct R/C systems deserve consideration. My $.02.
Thanks Ted, you did a better summary of this than I did. I hope this helps David and others, I am sure David and I are not the only 2 guys trying to figure this out.
One note: the AC track power could be converted to DC prior to feeding the rails rather than at the Loco.
What I am planning to use is a Regulated DC Power Supply. These are readily available at low cost because they are mass produced for powering "server/computer banks". Or you can go with the benchtop type used for testing in electronic labs. Possibly more cost effective than toy/model train transformers, depending on how much output you need.
If I want to run a "non-converted" conventional loco, than just use my old Lionel KW.
Obviously only one or the other is used to power the track, depending on what I want to run.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:I've recently been doing conversions to Lionel Legacy for some diesels that I had that were PS/1. With the recent price increases of the ERR stuff, I found that the diesel upgrades end up being just as cheap, though they're a bit more work as you have to fabricate all the cables.
You'll find it's much cheaper to tackle these yourself than shelling out the money to have them done.
Here's one Legacy upgrade example...
John--so Lionel actually sells any Legacy board? I thought "Must call Lionel to order" meant there was a catch, such as an exchange. Do they sell S scale boards? It would be nice to have DCC as well.
@IC EC posted:John--so Lionel actually sells any Legacy board? I thought "Must call Lionel to order" meant there was a catch, such as an exchange. Do they sell S scale boards? It would be nice to have DCC as well.
Well, they sell most of them, I haven't seen any "must call Lionel to order" parts lately on the parts site, and I regularly order Legacy and RS-Lite boards, as well as other stuff like the Track IR decoder/sensor board, Legacy tach sensor boards and flywheels, etc.
As an S gauge operator I would never recommend putting S gauge Legacy in an O gauge engine. If it was possible I would do the reverse. S gauge Legacy engines do not have DCC. What they have is an interface that allows the DCC track signals to control the Legacy functions in the engine. Two capabilities are lost if running a Legacy engine on DCC; there is only smoke On-Off, not three levels; there is no way to operate the electrocouplers.
A tradeoff for the DCC compatibility is S gauge Legacy does not have Bluetooth. Finding S gauge Legacy items is at best "challenging." For example, looking up the newest released engine, my PRR Y3, 2221110, shows only the BEMC/motor driver board available. Is nothing else available or are the rest of the parts in stock but not entered into the parts system? Stay with the O gauge Legacy parts.
@RailFan820 posted:There are just WAY too many posts to weed through...makes me dizzy. Thank you.
See David, you don’t have read a thousand threads to get dizzy, just one thread will do.
Ask a simple question and get thousand replies that have nothing to do with what you asked.
Pete
John--thanks. I have always been impressed with Legacy, I just never considered a Legacy upgrade until now.
Tom-thanks. I did not realize that about S gauge Legacy.
@Norton posted:Ask a simple question and get thousand replies that have nothing to do with what you asked
Pete
While the title says TMCC and DCS, it is this line in the body of the OPs post that opens up the responses to nearly anything related/applicable.
"... to some of form of Command Control without breaking the bank? "
It took great restraint from me not to be the first to reply Blunami, RailPro and Battery Deadrail. Glad others beat me to it.
Ron
David--major options:
1. MTH DCS Protosound 3 upgrade kit
2. Lionel Legacy components from similar locomotive
3. ERR, available from Sunset Models / 3rd Rail
4. Radio control (dead rail/battery)
5. DCC
All of these can be made to work, but all are relatively expensive ($200 plus per locomotive just for parts plus base system). All will require tinkering, including drilling, wiring, soldering, possible programming, troubleshooting, and adaption of non-stock parts such as electrocouplers.
Better way, in all seriousness = purchase locomotive with command control already installed.
@RailFan820 posted:There are just WAY too many posts to weed through...makes me dizzy.
David,
The reason there's so much varied conversation on this topic, captured in other threads and this thread, and enough to make your head spin, is because there is no easy answer.
TMCC (from ERR) and DCS are expensive, especially post-pandemic and with component shortages, and depending on the locomotive Legacy even more so.
DCC might have a slight advantage here in price, but unlike TMCC/Legacy and DCS together on the same tracks, it won't run simultaneously with either of them.
Blunami, RailPro and dead rail are big tear-ups, and get you very little discount, but are certainly worth looking at.
Unfortunately, there's no easy answer.
Mike
@Ron045 posted:While the title says TMCC and DCS, it is this line in the body of the OPs post that opens up the responses to nearly anything related/applicable.
"... to some of form of Command Control without breaking the bank? "
It took great restraint from me not to be the first to reply Blunami, RailPro and Battery Deadrail. Glad others beat me to it.
Ron
Guilty as charged.
@Norton posted:See David, you don’t have read a thousand threads to get dizzy, just one thread will do.
Ask a simple question and get thousand replies that have nothing to do with what you asked.
Pete
Again, Guilty as charged.
Again thank you ALL for your input. I'll consider my options and find the right person as I am not in a position to do it myself nor will I even attempt to try and risk damaging not only the command unit but the engine(s) as well.
@IC EC posted:David--major options:
1. MTH DCS Protosound 3 upgrade kit
2. Lionel Legacy components from similar locomotive
3. ERR, available from Sunset Models / 3rd Rail
4. Radio control (dead rail/battery)
5. DCC
All of these can be made to work, but all are relatively expensive ($200 plus per locomotive just for parts plus base system). All will require tinkering, including drilling, wiring, soldering, possible programming, troubleshooting, and adaption of non-stock parts such as electrocouplers.
Better way, in all seriousness = purchase locomotive with command control already installed.
I agree with your statement for some, maybe in this case the OP, since he mentioned having someone do the conversion. Not sure if you meant buying new or used (read on).
On the other hand, some of us like to "tinker". So a $300 or $400 - 15 to 35 year old Williams or Weaver Brass or K-Line Scale Steam Loco with $200 - $300 of parts seems like a better deal than a $1500 new 2023 Lionel for me. Less than half the money and I get to tinker. BTW the K-Lines already have TMCC.
R/C control is almost universally the appropriate system with battery power, but not absolutely necessary. A track signal based system could be used, but would involve a complicated circuit approach. The track condition freedom of battery power would still prevail.
If you're not installing the electronics yourself figure the cost of the electronics you're planning to have installed (PS3, TMCC, etc) and double that for a final cost. Realistically it will run close to $500 to have someone install the electronics and the labor to do so. Labor will probably be close to 5 hours if not more, depending on complexity.
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