Working on my layout.

I don't like the peninsula with or without the window, just fooling around. I didn't like the shrunken yard, not enough storage to justify the cost of switches and track. Still trying to figure out a way to make a single revering loop work.

Hey Dave. Can we try something like this but make it 054 and larger for the two mains. I forgot my Southern 4501 is min 048. I am sorry about that. I am so used to seeing 048 because of Fasttrack. That is my fault. Everything else can run on 036. After seeing the reverse loop for the North Pole I agree.  Also I am still trying to figure out spacing between tracks for bridges. I have a Atlas double truss so I am trying to figure out how to get it in front of the window. I made the outer loop go through a different tunnel to change the timing of the trains running as they meet each other. I am guessing it will just be a around the room with some sidings and bump outs for other scenery. Im still having problems trying to figure out how to get some of the curves and straights to fit.

Thought I'd try some variations:
I left all elevations at 0".
The Hidden Loop layer can be turned off by unchecking the box (I don't like it ). It is not connected to the main track.
Both loops are full reversing using a wye, so only one is needed.
The hidden loop doesn't really fit well. The original could be used there instead (I don't really like that one either ) and the one on the peninsula could be used without the wye (just the straight leg going down from the top).
I added some hidden passing sidings rather than a "too small" hidden yard as an alternative to or in addition to the main yard.
The peninsula has approximately 24" wide aisles. Both loops use O54 curves and switches. I believe the curves for the inner main could be changed to O54 even if the curves might not be totally concentric as a result. Then all your engines could run on all tracks.
I didn't know what you planned to do with the nook, so I just added a couple of spurs.

Southern4501 posted:

Hey Dave. Can we try something like this but make it 054 and larger for the two mains.

I will work on changing my latest version using all O54 and adjusting the hidden main like your example, then you can delete what you don't like.

There is a thread with the dimensions of the Atlas truss double track bridge. I do know that it is based on 4" centers like most of the Atlas track geometry. 

It is 40" long to work the valley spacing.

You can adjust the length of two straights in red to create the 4' center rail spacing to accommodate the bridge. See attached. The spacing now is ~ 5.21 or 5 1/4"

Here goes. I left a lot of the recent changes in, so just let me know which ones you are not interested in pursuing. That way I can delete them and forget about them

All curves/switches are now O54 or wider. Be advised, there are quite a few cut tracks, so if you don't want to cut tracks, let me know that too. I will also replace the 10" tracks with 40" tracks, but I don't like doing that until we get closer to a final design.

Dang, I wish you would have mentioned the bridge at the outset. Like Carl said though, it shouldn't be too much of a problem to adjust a section to 4" spacing wherever you want to put the bridge. The best location is somewhere along the all with the window, unless you decide to delete the yard or move the crossover. Most of the spacing now is based on the crossover. And don't forget the curves in the corners can probably be increased in size too since there are no reversing loops there to deal with anymore.

I am sorry about not mentioning the bridge. The first one we did was an incline and then the third one had the island coming off the middle. Seeing both of those and getting rid of them allowed for the bridge. I like the last two and trying to figure out how to best get them both to work. I like the two mains splitting up better then the reverse crossover loops.

Thanks again. I really do appreciate yours and everyone else's opinions and help.

Suffice it to say we can accommodate the bridge, so let us what you still want and what you want to delete.

Quick question about the north pole reverse loop. Since only the Polar Express is going to use that loop can it be downsized to 036 for more isle clearance? I was thinking making the deck to fit 045ish to circle the loop with buildings and the tree in the middle like the movie. I shortened the main yard some also to make room for going in and out the door.

Southern4501 posted:

Quick question about the north pole reverse loop. Since only the Polar Express is going to use that loop can it be downsized to 036 for more isle clearance? I was thinking making the deck to fit 045ish to circle the loop with buildings and the tree in the middle like the movie. I shortened the main yard some also to make room for going in and out the door.

Sure. I just want you to understand that if you do that, the rest of your trains will not be able to reverse directions, they'll just go round and round in the same direction. Not a problem as long as you're okay with it. Of course, with the yard and hidden passing sidings, you can always have trains set up for going in opposite directions to give you some variety.

Here you go. Don't forget there are some cut tracks in there. This photo doesn't show it, but I also swapped in the 40" tracks (see 2nd photo). I'd also like to point out the 1 problem I see, the slight "S" curve where the curve comes done to meet the Wye for the Polar Express run. I tried adding a 5.5" piece, but it throws off the geometry around the crossover. I still need to work in the bridge along the right side wall and I'll do that after I get some breakfast.

This photo shows what the curves would look like (in Red) if you changed to O72 for the outer run and O63 for the inner run. The Wye can't be changed though without some major surgery.

Moonman posted:

There is a thread with the dimensions of the Atlas truss double track bridge. I do know that it is based on 4" centers like most of the Atlas track geometry. 

Carl, when I measure the center-to-center spacing in the RR-Track version of the bridge, it measures 4.5". I thought that was the standard Atlas spacing and I believe that's what Mike G's bridge is.

Southern, can you measure the center rails and let me know if they are 4.5" apart?

Yes sir, it is 4.5”.  

Thanks.I just emailed Carl, didn't think you'd respond this quickly.

DoubleDAZ posted:

Southern4501 posted:

Quick question about the north pole reverse loop. Since only the Polar Express is going to use that loop can it be downsized to 036 for more isle clearance? I was thinking making the deck to fit 045ish to circle the loop with buildings and the tree in the middle like the movie. I shortened the main yard some also to make room for going in and out the door.

Sure. I just want you to understand that if you do that, the rest of your trains will not be able to reverse directions, they'll just go round and round in the same direction. Not a problem as long as you're okay with it. Of course, with the yard and hidden passing sidings, you can always have trains set up for going in opposite directions to give you some variety.

The only engine I have that requires larger curves is the 4501. Everything else is 036. You were saying you saw 1 problem with the polar wye. What about putting the crossover over at the yard? Will that help? I had thought about one of the first drawings and coming off the corner of the entry to the room but i didnt think the train could be reversed. 

The crossover itself isn’t really the problem, but it can go anywhere and by the yard might work better overall. The idea behind the wye and polar loop was so all trains could be reversed with a single loop and they could then go in either direction around either main. This is more for variety because you can certainly run trains in opposite directions to have them pass each other up. I’ll fiddle with the wye and bridge as soon as Windows is finished updating.

I understand. I was trying to fit in what I can where I can and work with the space.   I have to keep remembering that space is limited with oguage.  

Did you like the larger curves or do you want to keep the O54? Are you okay with the spacing or would you like most of it to match the bridge? Are you okay with cutting track to fit? Where cuts are needed, I generally try to fill in as many smaller tracks as I can to reduce the number of joints.

Making the bridge fit at the window. I like the uneven spacing at other areas for scenery stuff. If its all the same spacing I think it will look square. Question about the tunnel entrances, can the track be curved at the entrances.  When I am looking at them am I seeing that correctly with the larger curves? 

DoubleDAZ posted:

Moonman posted:

There is a thread with the dimensions of the Atlas truss double track bridge. I do know that it is based on 4" centers like most of the Atlas track geometry. 

Carl, when I measure the center-to-center spacing in the RR-Track version of the bridge, it measures 4.5". I thought that was the standard Atlas spacing and I believe that's what Mike G's bridge is.

Southern, can you measure the center rails and let me know if they are 4.5" apart?

Dave, YOU ARE CORRECT! IT IS 4.5"

SORRY FOR THE TYPO ERROR. 

I see that Southern confirmed it for you.

I have been busy away from the computer.

Yes, you are seeing the tunnels correctly. It's up to you how you make them. Many folks use rigid foam with some kind of portal at the entrance, either bought or handmade. The only thing you have to worry about is making sure there is clearance. The tunnel doesn't have to begin/end at the wall itself, you just have to place the portal at an angle on the curve so the train is moving perpendicular to it and then fill in to the wall opening with foam or some other material. Photo 1 shows what I mean. In the meantime, photo 2 is my latest rendition with the bridge. Notice I changed the room to a polygon and redid the baseboard to go around the track. You will need to turn off some of the layers (like Room, Tunnels, etc.,) to make it easier to change things. For some reason I had to manually add tunnels because they weren't rendering right in 3D.

Looks awesome.  Thank you again. I think I need to shorten the hidden sidings a smidge to make room to get through the doorway but i like it so far.  

No problem, let me know if you want the wider curves or not. Don’t get too hung up on the hidden sidings, I just threw them in because I wasn’t sure about the storage yard. I’m still having a hard time envisioning how access to that area is going to work and how you’re going to make it removable, but the important thing is you know.

I am looking at doing a lift out when the curves stop and the straights start.

Then you sure won't want the wider curves in that area.

Where is the turntable & round house going?

Try this and see if it works.

eddie g posted:

Where is the turntable & round house going?

Careful what you ask for.

And here's another version with longer sidings and a different upper tunnel configuration. And with that I'm done for awhile.

Southern,

I have been thinking about the design and wondering why small radius are used. I get it for the wye fitment, but the rest can either #5 one O72. For a crossover, two #5 create a 4.5" center naturally. Using them for the passing sidings behind the wall need a 5.5" and O72 half curve to bring it to parallel.

O72 for the yard doesn't take up much more space.

The cost of the switch is the relatively the same. #5's and O72's are smoother and handle any loco. Also, the passing sidings and the yard installation could be at later date to defer the expense of all of those switches. 

if you get settled on plan, I would refit it as I am suggesting to demonstrate. I think that you are close.

Also remember, that the tables are currently larger than needed, so, there more aisle space for the current plan.

Carl, I used #5s in 1 early version, not sure why I went to O72s. I also offered a version with O63 and O72 curves, something he never said yay or nay to. I’ll have to look back, but I believe the #5s shortened all the storage tracks. The file has the wider curves in the Alternate layer.

Here it is with the #5 switches, except for the crossover. The Red tracks are what O63 and O72 curves would look like. He's already concerned about door access in the lower left and wider curves only make it worse, though I haven't looked deeper at that because I'm not sure exactly where he wants the lift-out in that area. On the left side, I don't know how to make the siding parallel other than using a half O72 curve. Without the straight pieces, I believe the siding is too close to the main. The same is true for the first yard track, but I didn't fiddle with it because I wasn't happy with how short the yard tracks are. I get preferring numbered switches, but I don't like how that configuration looks unless I lose the top track and then we lose a lot of storage. I had planned on redoing the crossover with #5s and then realigning all the others for 4.5" centers today, just haven't gotten there yet as we have been working on the overall design and just added the bridge.

Southern4501 posted:

Question about the tunnel entrances, can the track be curved at the entrances.  When I am looking at them am I seeing that correctly with the larger curves? 

BTW, I added tunnels in the lower left, but now I'm thinking you might not be overly concerned with how the hidden part of the layout is going to look and won't be doing much landscaping of that area. If it were me, I'd put a fairly large slot through the wall wide enough for both sets of tracks. Then I'd cover the slot in the main room with tunnel entrances, either 2 singles or a double, and leave the backside open for access.

Also, there's no reason your lift-out can't contain part of the curves, you just have to cut the track wherever you want the lift-out. You also need to make sure you have a good alignment system, metal pins, etc., for when you put the lift-out back in place.

The crossovers need them - I get that they shorten the yard spurs and storage - but O72 works as it is the same divergence curve arc. I just think that someday the layout will change and better to have the larger turnouts .

I think on the passing /storage sidings one wouldn't want to limit a large loco with a small switch

The #5's on the crossovers near the yard would set the double mainline to 4.5" for the bridge by default.

Southern, I think I see something I didn't before. I took another look at your photos and I’m assuming this is the photo of the section where the passing sidings are. If I'm correct, there’s the door at the top left (bottom left in the design) and the HVAC is to the right. That’s why you want the lift-out there so you can get stuff in/out of the HVAC area on the right. I initially thought that was where the reversing loop area was, but I see now how it’s oriented with the large area to the bottom left and not shown. You told me once you had access along the right side, so the passing sidings can take up the entire space. I see now what you were talking about and I can actually play with the entire space between the piping and the stud. I don’t think any of that area is going to be finished and the photo of the loop area shows it’s all sprayed in insulation, so I’m not sure you want to put too much back there. Am I seeing it correctly now?

Yes sir.  You are correct. Looking at that photo the door to the attic is in front of me and to the left.  To my immediate right is the hvac.  To the left is the stairs access and behind me to the left was the reversing loop. Now that the room is finished I have to go through all the stored stuff and get rid of junk from the move to the house.  I will then be able to take better pictures and get a better idea of space. I might even be able to go around the hvac and come back in just with a bigger loop of track.  That way there is no need for a liftout.  Right now i like the inside plans for sure.  The attic would be a temporary section run until i get it all cleared out. I am not too worried about those sidings.  

Moonman posted:

The crossovers need them - I get that they shorten the yard spurs and storage - but O72 works as it is the same divergence curve arc. I just think that someday the layout will change and better to have the larger turnouts .

I think on the passing /storage sidings one wouldn't want to limit a large loco with a small switch

The #5's on the crossovers near the yard would set the double mainline to 4.5" for the bridge by default.

Thats why I appreciate everyones ideas.  Im hoping to get the attic cleanout done while I am out of work.  Hopefully I will get released to back on the 23rd of this month. I am giving all my HO stuff to my best friend so that will free up alot of room. He said can you imagine the room in HO. I have to start sticking with only one scale. I have too much invested in O and I like all the bells and whistles.  

Well, here's yet another version taking into account Carl's comments (#5 switches and O63/O72 curves), my new understanding of the space and your comment about not really liking all parallel tracks (upper right). If you can go around the HVAC, fine, but the lift-out is not really as a big a deal as it sounds. And if you decide not to use the passing sidings, that's fine too, every switch adds to the cost. At any rate, I'm done now until you ask for more changes/ideas.

BTW, those extra spur tracks in the yard are for engine storage; 1 on the left, 2 on the right.

Okay now that there is a general track plan, my next question is gonna be frame work. Per my wife’s orders I wont be able to attach it to the walls. Tunnels are the only holes I can make lol. That being said what does the general frame work need to be made from?