What's up with train shows??

Train shows (swap meets) were abundant on Long Island a number of years ago. At one time there were at least 1 every weekend from October to April within a 20 mile radius of my home. I attended almost every one with friends and enjoyed every moment. What is better than being with train loving people, meeting more and being surrounded by trains for sale? Searching and finding what you want/need, even if you didn't know that you wanted or needed an item.

I sell at a local show (Farmingville, NY, the next one is on September 8) 5 times a year. I usually don't get "what I have in an item" but I don't really care, there is play value in that item that I enjoyed. 

I sit at my table, chat with friends, peruse other tables, learn about trains all while, at the same time (sometimes!), pick up a few bucks for my train bank for something new that I want more. A great way to spend a Sunday morning .

EBAY can't even come close to that experience.

Just my $0.02 worth. I went for about a decade without being to a train show. Neither myself or my wife drive so our radius is pretty small for train shows but there is one close enough that we were able to bribe a friend of us to take us to. To be perfectly honest I was shocked at how much higher the prices were as compared to the same items purchased on the internet. Obviously, the cost of tables and transport is driving that discrepancy. Maybe it was the fact that it was the second day of a two day show but I agree foot traffic seemed very light. Nevertheless, we had fun and I bought some items that I didn't have. The way train shows go isn't any different than the way the toy train hobby goes in general. It is tough to try to sell a newbie a few grand of trains and tel them to find the time to build a layout when their perception is that a $2.95 smartphone app will give them the same level of entertainment value.

The problem is, the "train show experience" is lost on the younger generation.  They see no value in that.  They want what ever xyz item at a certain price.  And as long as they can get it via that same phone/app while they are at home, work ect.  Then that is how they get their items.  I have watched this first hand.  And even I do this, especially during the summertime when train shows are not to be found.  Ebay and other selling groups/forums are a 24/7/365 train show with way more selection to chose from.  Some of this is driven by what I model. Does that stop me from attending shows?  Heck no, I go to as many as I can.   

I would like to see shows combined and condensed.  Having shows every weekend between Halloween and Christmas within a short drive is a bit overkill and cuts down on the crowd at each show.  Combine them along with look for the best venue to host it.  One show that has gone down hill is held at the state fairgrounds, which charges 8 bucks to park and the parking area is nowhere near the show.  So you have along hike in cold and usually damp weather.  Or wait for a shuttle bus in the same weather.  Then the door price is quite high.   This show was once a huge and well attended, now its hard to even get dealers to attend it.       Mike

I suspect that most forum members already have most of the trains that they will ever need or have space to store.  I have visited many collectors homes where every niche including the kitchen and living rooms are filled with trains.

The people who are buying trains are buying new things through online or local dealers.  Look at the excitement every time Lionel or MTH publishes a new catalog.  This means that attendance and sales of used trains at train shows are naturally going to drop.  

The best solution is to recruit younger people to the hobby and to promote the hobby to our contemporaries.  This is very difficult.  Many of the people on this forum are doing their best to get new people interested in trains.  I applaud them for that.  Somehow the hobby needs to get more exposure.  

Promoting trains to kids my pay off in forty years.  Trains really need to be promoted to grandfathers and parents looking for a positive hobby to do with their kids / grandkids.  

My club and I are trying very hard through our own shows and kids programs to promote the hobby.  Most of the teenage kids in the club are going into HO.  They are running Thomas The Tank Engine and other children's trains on the club's large HO display using their smart phones and DCC.

Smart phones, DCC and engines that are come factory equipped with DCC have made the entry into HO and the other small scales very easy.  It is also less expensive.  I just got a new Bachmann DCC Sound Value SD-70ACe on sale from a major train dealer for about $100.  The locomotive has great detail, sound, and lights.  I just put it on the track, activated my smart phone throttle app and start running it.   It ran perfectly.

The equivalent Lionel or MTH diesel is in the $400 to $500 range.  My experience with both Lionel and MTH engines is that they don't run as well right out of the box as do their HO counterparts.  Also, they aren't as scale because of the claw couplers, oversize flanges, and movable pilots.  The hobby is moving toward scale equipment.  O gauge is going to have to follow if it is going to remain viable.  Claw couplers, for example, aren't nearly as reliable as Kadee or Kadee compatible couplers.  

NH Joe

Mike Wyatt posted:

 

Our NE Ohio O Gaugers group tried our first effort at a "train show and meet" this weekend.  Disappointing result.  

 

 

 

"If it is to BE, it's got to start with ME."

when....where was this?...must of been in my backyard ......could not go,had 5 different things going on....medina county fair...ucc church had food building to work at too...

Lionelski posted:

Train shows (swap meets) were abundant on Long Island a number of years ago. At one time there were at least 1 every weekend from October to April within a 20 mile radius of my home. I attended almost every one with friends and enjoyed every moment. What is better than being with train loving people, meeting more and being surrounded by trains for sale? Searching and finding what you want/need, even if you didn't know that you wanted or needed an item.

I sell at a local show (Farmingville, NY, the next one is on September 8) 5 times a year. I usually don't get "what I have in an item" but I don't really care, there is play value in that item that I enjoyed. 

I sit at my table, chat with friends, peruse other tables, learn about trains all while, at the same time (sometimes!), pick up a few bucks for my train bank for something new that I want more. A great way to spend a Sunday morning .

EBAY can't even come close to that experience.

 

Now that’s the spirit. I love that approach. Not going to get rich or pay off the mortgage but get a few bucks for new stuff. That keeps things going. Most of us have more stuff than we could ever use so I’m all for selling $.25 on the dollar to get some extra cash and hopefully give someone else a chance to become part of the hobby. Why keep it in boxes under the layout. Now, this has nothing to do with dealers. I realize they need a profit to stay in business. Train shows may not be in their best interest, 

pc cr ns yard rat posted:

 ...snip... Dayton ...snip...  Doug

I have attended the November Dayton show several times starting when it was at the Hara Arena (great restaurant a block or two east!), then at a Springfield shopping center. I liked that location better as it was close to the Clark County Fairgrounds where I was attending a different hobby event. The new location seems tp be maybe too far away for me this time. We shall see.

I think that another factor that is holding back the popularity of the O gauge hobby are the competing command control systems.  Both DCS and Legacy are excellent but they are not compatible.  By this I mean that you can't set a Legacy engine on a DCS layout and just run it using the Lionel controller and vice versa.  You must have components of both systems which adds to expense, complexity, and confusion.  Yes, you can make both run together but it isn't easy in my experience.  This why some clubs seem to be all Legacy and others are all DCS.  I wish that the two major manufacturers could get together and agree on an O gauge standard.  Hint - DCC.

New people aren't eager to buy two systems or use two different apps in order to run equipment from both manufacturers.  They just give up and run HO using any DCC system.    I can take my HO engines to any DCC layout and run them no matter what DCC system the layout's owner has.  This is the same for clubs.  

Lionel's new Lion Chief engines with Bluetooth are beginning for compatibility with most smart phones.  We are finding at the G&O, however, that we lose control of engines using Bluetooth at the far end of the layout.  

I like and run engines from both manufacturers but most of my friends won't go that trouble.  

What does this have to do with train shows?  If we want to get people to shows we need to have command systems that they can setup and run easily.   NH Joe

Dave, The Hara Arena shows were great. I liked the Springfield Upper Valley Mall location best. That was only about twenty minutes from my house. I had to vend at that show and drive to Kirtland, Ohio (other end of the state) for the O scale 2 rail show to buy. I'll not do that again, too many hours on the highway! The latest location is the new Montgomery County fairgrounds site southwest of Dayton. I have not heard much good for that venue.  Doug

Mike Wyatt posted:

What would it take to actually MAKE a successful train show??   

One late January,  a decade or so ago,  hobbyist, at the local high school started a train show.  The show was advertised in each of the schools in the city - particularly the grade schools - and students and their parents were provided free admission.  Glancy Trains, of the Detroit Historical Museum,  was invited to set up their large layout.

Several years later, a large professional architecture firm was hired by the school district to create an interior design for the show, including table placement, layout placement, etc., so as not to create a fire hazard for the huge crowds now attending the annual show.  This was done at the request of the city's Fire Marshal.  

This show, which ultimately grew so large and attracted such crowds, has been moved to another school in another school district.  

The show continues to be one of the largest, if not the largest, train show in the state. 

The theme for success SEEMS to be:  

- location: a school. city center, public building etc. (vs. a private train club)?  Easier to find?  A building that the public is already used to visiting? Maybe a location that is available at no cost, so the organizers don't have to pass on that cost to visitors and exhibitors?

- features- operating layouts, portable modular layouts, something HAPPENING vs. just tables w/ stuff for sale.

- reach out to kids, parents w/ kids

- make the parking FREE and EASY

- prices that are reasonable, competing w/ the Bay for pre-owned items.

- table costs as low as possible, so people who are just wanting to sell off some un-needed train items can be there - this fosters conversation and FUN vs. just a selling atmosphere.  Most of us have stuff we would rather sell off at a good price to a "good home".  Maybe that is "returning to our roots" when "meets" were just that- and a good thing.

- PUBLICITY- and lots of it.  Online, yes, but also using advertising to the public.  How else will those who are NOT already hobbyists know about it??

It also seems like WE need to use train shows and meets to reach out to POTENTIAL hobbyists, not just those already in the hobby.

Northern Ohio still has quite a few train shows throughout the year but the crowds are not what they were 15 to 20 years ago.

Yep-

- Rising entrance costs

- Fewer vendors- rising table costs

- Fewer model train hobbyists

- The internet= more selection, competing  prices, easy to use.  

- (For fewer of us)- rising travel costs (most of us just go to local shows).  A trip for 2 days at York = $300-400 BEFORE you buy anything.  Motel- $ 100 X 2 nites; Meals 6 X $ 10, gas- varies- but gas in PA tickles $3 a gallon.

I dont think anybody expects Lionel to change from the overscale(claw) coupler after all these years.  Having that backwards compatability is part of it all.   The new electroncis and bluetooth is part of the picture, but also not for everyone.  That is what makes the hobby so great, there is a level and a scale for every desire.  And THIS is what needs to be promoted in a positive manor.  Less of the gripes about this or that, the cost or lack of xyz ect.   I can set up an O gauge train set for almost any budget, even for free in the right circumstances.  It might not be the newest and nicest trains out.  But I can put together a solid set that will be reliable and encourage that person to grow the set in the future.  With prices way down on most common pieces, its easier now that ever.  An expensive raffle for a few of these sets would make a good promotion at a show that is geared toward the newbie in the hobby.  The shows that I attend that have lots of excellent layouts are probably the best attended.  Especially by parents with kids. But sadly many of these shows lack any dealers stocking boxed starter sets.   This is what the parents will be looking for, a single stop purchase of a set at a competive price(ie do your online research before you price it).  Sets from Lionel/AF and others should be at a show.   Especially the Harry Potter and Polar Express sets, along with add on's to those sets.  A local dealer took my suggestions to heart, and everything he took that related to the sets and the sets themselves were purchased.    Sadly many dealers just do not "get it" and want to sit around and ***** about the state of the hobby as they see it, instead of promoting the hobby in a positive light.        Mike

I like "show that is geared toward the newbie in the hobby."   

- excellent layouts

-  parents with kids

- Feature  boxed starter sets.   

-  Sets from Lionel/AF and others should be at a show. (I wouldn't think many newbies are interested in MTH- they never heard of that line- Lionel and AF=- yes.)

- Harry Potter and Polar Express sets, along with add on's to those sets.  

Kids still LOVE trains!!  I showed my layout to a 4 year old, her 1 year old brother,  and their grandmother this week- the 4 YO went crazy (as did grandma).  

At one point in time (up until about the late 80's) there was a train show in my area several times per month.  Currently there are but a few, Allentown/Frost-Thaw and Greenbergs being the last two large shows. The  changing demographics and online buying has had a huge impact on the shows and on the train hobby in general.  I would venture to say buying has slowed up for many long time hobbyists but Allentown and    Greenbergs  are still brisk with activity. They still draw thousands.  We still attend both of those shows just to find the occasional piece, keep in touch with folks and to see what's happening.  Allentown is my favorite show and also the most heavily attended. Like all other hobbies the train hobby has changed direction but it is still alive and well.

Mike Wyatt posted:

Yep-

- Rising entrance costs

- Fewer vendors- rising table costs

- Fewer model train hobbyists

- The internet= more selection, competing  prices, easy to use.  

- (For fewer of us)- rising travel costs (most of us just go to local shows).  A trip for 2 days at York = $300-400 BEFORE you buy anything.  Motel- $ 100 X 2 nites; Meals 6 X $ 10, gas- varies- but gas in PA tickles $3 a gallon.

 

Should add all those travel costs in to the vendor costs along with the entrance costs.  Everyone seems to forget that there's more to this than just cost of tables.  As for local shows, nothing under an hour for me; more like 2 states away.  Gas in PA was $2.75 at the Sheetz off Rt 81 yesterday, but it was $2.95 ~30 miles closer to my house. 

Trainfest in West Allis, WI every November is one of the best train shows around, with numerous operating layouts, vendors, historical societies and even a train ride for kids. Despite all this, its attendance has been falling over the past five years or so, after drawing more than 20,000 attendees over its 2-day tenure for a number of years. Basic costs are 12 dollars admission (with discounts for pre-purchase) and 5 dollars to park in the fairgrounds lots. That's pretty hefty for a family budget these days. Its still a great show.

It might help if the sets have trains one sees today.  And not just Class 1 and Amtrak.  A nice S70 LRT set would sell in Houston and other cities.  And one could sell non powered units in different wraps just for Houston METRO.

rockstars1989 posted:

I love going to train shows. I love to "wheel and deal" With the guys but I understand they pay to be there and you have to let people make a living. I am very aware of what goes on at these shows.

I have worked at a few and it seems they load as much back up at the end of the day as they brought.Thats not good to see. Talking to the vendors they say they make little or no money, its just a chance to become known and get their name out there. These people work their ***es off give them your business.

Here is their day:

Go to shop-pack everything up-

load it up-drive out there-

un load -un pack-set up-

sit 6-8 hours-

pack it all back up-load it up-drive back-

un load-un- pack- put away-

you have a 13-14 hour day.AND have to pay helpers.

Buy from these guys.They deserve it. Don't be a tire kicker. they are doing us a service. Nick

There is another side to this, though, and that is a lot of vendors at these shows (and this is just my experience/view/opinion) is that many of the vendors don't help themselves, that instead of pricing their goods at reasonable prices, they set the ticket price high with the hope they will get their real price through haggling, or better, get someone to overpay, it kind of reminds me of the model of the electronics stores in NYC back in the day, where they would have a 200 buck (then) modem priced at 600,hoping a tourist would think it was a bargain when they got it for 550. I understand there are a lot of people who go to those shows who want to get something for nothing, who think they are going to get something expensive at tag sale prices, I have seen more than a few customers at trains shows who I would hate to have to deal with as a vendor.

In this day and age of the internet, when you can see what things are realistically priced at, when you can do it from your home, why should someone have to haggle over something, play the game, when they can get the item easily online def cheaper than what the vendor has on its price tag?  What value is the vendor adding to the purchasing experience? I'll also be blunt, a lot of the people I see selling at tables are not selling anything exotic that would interest a collector and are selling common stuff at prices an operator wouldn't pay, I think some of the vendors are thinking it is the past, where people would snap up common Lionel PW at ridiculous prices or something like that. It isn't that I devalue the experience of going to a show, I went to Spring Thaw (and will go to First Frost, among other things we found a great Hungarian Restaurant in a nearby town) and was blown away with how much fun it was, so I value the show experience, but I personally don't value having the negotiate a decent price either (I saw both types at Spring Thaw, some with realistically priced offerings, some with prices that would make the guys at Madison Hardware blush at when fleecing some yuppie back in the 80's . 

The other thing is, it may be better to sell things near what you paid for them or even at a loss than not sell them, is it better to pay for a table, the gas to get to a show, the food, etc, and take a total loss on that cost, or perhaps make some sales so the loss is less? Too, if you get known for wanting to sell things, you might end up getting customers in the future who otherwise would go elsewhere, a vendor sitting there not selling anything is like a store with no foot traffic in it, it won't attract customers. It is why stores always have stuff on sale, to get people into the stores, so while they may not make much on that pair of sneakers with a 40% off coupon, they will make money on other things people buy.  Another good reason to sell inventory off, even if at a loss, is that perhaps the vendor can find other things to sell people want. If you are going to show after show and no one is buying, it means the price is too high for the level of interest people have, and if you keep coming back with the same items at the same price it just feeds the perception you (the vendor) have nothing worth looking at *shrug*. 

I do agree with others that getting new blood at the shows is a good idea, ie getting people into the hobby who may still see something interesting and be willing to pay more than the guy coming there looking for hot bargains, the proverbial "grumpy old man", I speak from experience, new people in a hobby tend to be willing to make impulse purchases more than the jaded person with his worn version of greenberg guides and Ebay selling prices in his head. 

This is a long thread with long posts, so I have only read a few here and there.

I live in a model RR desert - as do most of us - so any train show/swap meet/meeting can be enjoyable, provided that the grouches aren't around.

I try to sell. I buy little, now. But if it is practical and there are people I know there (almost none, now), I will stay all day just to be around my tribe. I go to a train show to go to a train show, not to shop, though I certainly do that. Some go to buy only and once they have done that, they leave. I don't get that (assuming that circumstances do not require them to leave). I hang out; talk to friends; have a laugh; have lunch; buy something - if I'm there long enough, buying is going to happen.

Most of that last paragraph no longer happens. Mostly gone; some actually dead and buried. Time, and all that.

There are going to be two nice 3RO "collections" coming up around here soon - not sure when, but the sands are running out. Nice stuff. Not sure who will want it. Those who care already have everything; those who don't care, don't want.

If you mean by Train Shows, like the Great American Train shows, they have disappeared in small cities like Mobile AL, Baton Rouge, LA and even New Orleans, LA about 15 years ago.  They still have them in Houston but even there there is not much for us postwar fans.  The days of big national train shows like in the 1990s and 2000s has passed for many smaller locations and what is left are held in larger markets as it costs a lot to have a train show in the Houston Astro hall.

We still have TCA shows here between Baton Rouge and New Orleans twice a year which serves my needs but they are slowly getting less items to buy as the great flood in BR in 2016 and the hurricane Katrina in New Orleans in 2005 wiped out a lot of train collections but layouts at the train meet have been growing and attendance especially young families has improved.

I believe the post war older folks, who have driven the market in Lionel and AM for the last 25 years, have started shrinking and the growth in model trains is mostly younger folks who like the newer trains with better electronics and features.

Charlie

"What would it take to actually make a successful train show?"

Good product, fairly and competitively priced.

Money, especially cash.

FrankM, Layout Refinements

There is no more Astrohall.  NRG Hall replaced it.  Therr have been shows at NRG Arena, at the SE end of NRG Park.

Some areas are experiencing contraction.  As the aging baby boomer generation moves on, there are less of us.  Mill towns, western Pa,  some of the contraction is obvious.   Once three/4 services, Sunday, this church was combined with another, then, that newly formed parish, was again combined with others before the wrecking ball.   St. Mary's,  Beaver Falls, Pa.   I look at the silver tops, Sunday, and think 5 years from now??   After the St. Mary's demise, the wrecking ball moved to Ellwood City, St. Agatha.   We worked a project, St. Michaels, McKeesport, PA.  The one church building that remained, three churches were demolished. 

Mike CT, Your reply speaks volumes.

I heard this said recently, "It's not a matter of 'if' but a matter of when."

FrankM

It’s summertime, rerun this post in November. 

I may be unusual, but my goal at train shows or a local hobby shop (LHS) is not necessarily to get the best price for myself at the vendor's expense.

First, I only buy, have never sold anything, am middle class economically (not rich),  and now only spend a modest sum per year on my train purchases because I already have more than enough trains, and am content with what I already have.  Vision Line locomotives are way beyond what I can afford, are not on my Wish List, and are much too big for the 031 curves on my layout. However, I will spend more than normal for something I regard as very special, which I have done for LC+ and MTH Proto 3.

Any brand new item in the  latest Lionel or MTH catalogue I only buy at a LHS. Why? Because I want the LHS to be profitable so it stays in business. That is also why I rarely negotiate to get the price down. I ask what the price is, and then decide if the item works on my layout. If so, I usually buy it for the seller's asking price, and am usually fine with paying the suggested retail price in the catalogue.

At train shows, I first stroll through the entire show to see what catches my eye. It's fun, and creative, for me to imagine how an item might work on my layout. Again, when I see an item I like, I carefully assess the condition, find out the price, and most of the time decide whether to buy it for that price without attempting to negotiate the price down.

Why I am this way is a combination of things. I guess I find haggling distasteful over something like trains. I also want the deal to work for the seller as well as me. 

I remember seeing a video of a very well to do train collector with a huge layout who also did not negotiate prices down. His reasoning was that he wanted to have a good reputation among vendors of being willing to pay more for quality merchandise, so he would get first dibs on stuff. I don't buy nearly enough to develop such a reputation, but I liked that collector's strategy.

I do aspire to have a good reputation as a buyer so the vendor is more motivated to stand behind the merchandise and be accommodating if there turns out to be a problem with anything I buy. That has worked for me with LHSs, where I have purchased many items over many years. Arnold