Will Legacy or Legacy Lite be available as an updrade?

Lionel initially was going to offer upgrades but there were some issue with electronics and as of the last heard no upgrades will be offered as it would be cost prohibitive as it pertains to engine components.

I think Lionel would rather sell engines than upgrade kits.  Probably the same reason that the PS2 upgrade kits from MTH are so hard to get.

Our two candidates mentioned above have not been re issued in 12 years now. Assuming that both toolings were destroyed and/ or bound up in legal shenanigans, it would benefit Lionel from a PR standpoint to have Legacy kits for them.

Otherwise, how embarrassing it must be to have premium Lionel locomotives sporting MTH PS2 conversions!

I have a nice K-Line Mikado that sports a PS/2 conversion, runs great and the MTH smoke unit beats the old puffer it had hands down!

Don't know why they don't sell the kits, it could be because of the support issues involved.  Of course, it could be that they just don't want to spend the time and effort to create the kit.  I have no idea how many of the TMCC conversions ERR sells, I know I've accounted for quite a few.

For the T-1 its $130 for the upgrade.  90 for the Cruise commander M, and $40 for a new version r2lc (08 revision).  My T-1 can really creep around the layout.  I found it a worth while upgrade.  If you enjoy the engine and use it a lot, I would think it would be worth it.

There have been a couple of previous postings on the subject of Legacy upgrades. As I understand it, Lionel originally intended to do Legacy upgrade kits but as the design evolved, it got too complicated. A new motor would have been required as well as a new smoke unit. I forget the other issues but as I understand it (Mikado, you out there?), the installation of Legacy in an older or non-Lionel locomotive would be just too complex and expensive to be a viable proposition. 

Mike told us at a Legacy meeting that it can be done...for enough money.

Seriously though he said it takes alot to do it.

Other than the encoder on the motor, I'm not sure where the other money is spent over the standard TMCC upgrade.  IMO, I don't think it's a technical issue deciding that there isn't a Legacy upgrade kit, but rather a business decision.  The notion that this is somehow prohibitively expensive doesn't seem to make sense.  I'd be glad for someone to explain that to me...

It would be an entire gut of the electronics and I believe including the smoke unit.  I would suggest you email Mike and maybe he can explain what is all involved.  I've asked via the LUG meetings and that is what I got from both Mike and Jon.

It certainly is gutting the electronics, I realize that.  When I do TMCC upgrades, I strip the chassis down to the motor and start from there.  I would expect to do the same thing in this case.

That's what A PS/2 or TMCC upgrade consists of, so I don't see any difference here.

Again, email Mike or Jon.  I'm sure they can get more specific.  We were told it would be an expensive proposition. Again nobody said it couldn't be done but it was all what you were willing to pay.

Let us all know what they tell you.

Hi all,

to add some remarks to possible Legacy conversions of engines.

1. the Legacy sensor board must be fixed to the motor, maybe replacing the Odyssee 1 sensor board

2. keep in mind that in modern Lionel engines the motors are fixed to the frame and do not swivvel with the truck in curves

3. Legacy engines can move very slowly without interuption over dirty track, as they have 4 roller pick ups.

to 1. a tool to remove the flywheel is required to place the sensor board and the new flywheel with the cage on the motor; that can be done , if the motor shaft is long enough for the flywheel. Depending on the type of sensor board that you want to use you must lathe an additional washer that will balance the differences between the motor diameter at the board location and the sensor board hole itself.

That can be done with certain patience, as sometimes older flywheels have a tencency to get fixed to the shaft like welded parts

to 2. if you want to convert a diesel engine with a truss bridge design like a F3, E8 ,Erie-built etc. you have enought space inside the shell for the motor, to move together with the adjacent truck , as the sensor board is extending against the former Odyssee 1 sensor board; if you want to convert a diesel engine with a hood design like GP7 or SD60,C-40-8, C30-7, you must consider limited space for the swivveling motor with the board in tight curves(even in 72'' diameters); in such a case you have possibilities: you reduce size of the sensor board, replacing some traces with wires or you turn the motor on the motor plate a little bit to move the outer edge of the sensor board towards the center line of the engine, to improve the  swivveling possibilities: you replace the frame of the engine with an approriate frame for a similar Lionel engine, replace the complete gearing with the trucks  applying the motors fixed to the framer combine both methods.all in all there is a demand for machining, drilling , thread cutting tec.

to 3. in some cases it might be helpful to add additional roller pick ups, so you must have some machining capabilities in your surroundings.

Independent from the shape of the engine you must place mother boards, maybe smoke units. That can create some headakes(no sleepless nights), but can be solved

Meanwhile I have converted more than 20 engines to Legacy equipment to get the operational advantages of Legacy engines. I used the different methods as  described above to get the desired results in different development steps and depending on the installation space. 

In addition I still use the Railsounds 4.0 boards,with the Legacy utility you can combine Legacy operation with RS, unfortunately the ramp up and down of the diesel engine must be activated manually in the kind of operation. 

In total, indeed there is a lot of work to get the conversion, but I am very satisfied with the results and for  me it's pastime.

A standardized solution might be possible, but then I think the Legacy sensor board must be shaped to the size of the former Odyssee 1 board. Independent from that, you have expenditures for the mother board and the receiver at least.

If there is some interest around, I can show some pictures during the Legacy user meeting

Albrecht

That's quite interesting Albrecht, thank for the detailed explanation.

Are you able to obtain Legacy components from Lionel or are you cannibalizing existing engines?

c.sam

- motor drivers, receivers , mother boards, sensor boards and mechanical parts you can buy via Lionel Customer Service on-line, go to the Lionel web side

- some engines are very attractive to railroad modellers; people convert Lionel engines to two rail operation,  I had opportunity several times to get the electronic parts;

- in one case I bought the complete electronics for a diesel engine including the motors via eBay

Albrecht

Albrecht, you mention using RS4 with legacy. In another thread it was pointed out to me that RS4 uses 8 bit serial and Legacy uses 9 bit. You are saying most of the RS4 functions still work, other than prime mover ramp up?

Pete

Some of the issues, like having to pull the flywheel, could be addressed with a conversion kit.  Obviously, there would be some engineering required to create a kit that would fit into multiple environments without a machine shop.

Norton,

Legacy as delivered allows  the combination

motor control=Legacy and Sound=Legacy

motor control=TMCC   and Sound=Legacy,

howver not

motor control=Legacy and Sound=TMCC

With the Legacy Utility program it is possible to create the combination

motor control=Legacy and Sound =RS.

The steps applying the utility program are:

file the engines stored in the Legacy base on a computer using the utility, then change the properties of the desired converted engine(naturally with Legacy motor driver and receiver) to the mentioned combination motor Control/sound and transfer the result back to the base.

when you open then the properties of the engine in the handheld, you can see the new motor control/sound combination.

As a result you have the engine operating with Legacy speed control and the old RS. Naturally you can't trigger a quilling horn or whistle as with Legacy sound, but horn or whistle and all other sound settings work in this matter as TMCC sound.Such an equipped engine you can have then in a lash up as second engine behind a pure Legacy engine, too.

Regards

Albrecht

Thanks for the update Albrecht. I'll have to consider that for my next upgrade.

See you at York.

Pete

That's interesting Albrecht.  Since one issue discussed was that the conversion would be cost prohibitive, it begs the question, how much did the parts set you back?  Assuming one possessed the wherewithall to put it together himself.

William 1,

indeed, you have to balance work effort and cost of a converted engine against a new one from the shelf; and for a conversion I have to regard from my experience depending on the type one to three workdays. And I have only the weekends to process something, I do not that at any price and for any engine type on my layout,but I regard that workt as an interesting pastime , and the result is for me an up-to-date operating engine that gives fun to play with it, alone or together with other engines in a lash up.

Albrecht

I dig all that, trust me, but the question still stands, how much does the hardware set you back?