Will the "Modern Era" ever end?

A very good way to see it, Don!

Ends when the Postmodern Era begins.  Works for other social, political, cultural and economic perspectives, so why not Lionel production?




What, me worry?

The Jet Age. Well, let's see....

 

1958 to 1978 - The Golden Era of Passenger Service

 

1979 to Sept. 11, 2001 - The Kahn Era: Deregulation and Increasing Turbulance

 

Sept. 12, 2001 to Present - The TSA Era: Flying Cattle Cars and Masochism

 

Sorry. Just having a bit of fun. 

 

Bob

 

Absolutely correct about Prewar being 41 years but the 43 years of modern era has so much more product. Modern is a very thick part of the price guides. My opinion it would be nice to see it split like this:

MPC era

 

LTI era

 

LLC era

Pre War Era

 

Post War Era

 

MPC Era

 

Modern Era

 

Digital Era

By definition, it will keep repeating over and over again.  Therefore, pick a vintage you like, or keep up with the Joneses.

This is a deep topic and has produced some interesting replies and ideas along with some dictionary use for me, but, hey, let's not slight the instant-trading "ebay era"

"Forgive me if this has been discussed in the past, but a random thought that crossed my mind today was when, if ever, the "Modern Era" of Lionel would end."

 

The short answer is: when the company looses it's appeal to its investment bankers or subsequent private financiers.

How about old guys who can't get enough era?

IMHO, the most important reason for defining eras is to enable us to communicate with each other. Therefore the division of eras needs to be concisely defined and easy to understand.

Once again IMHO one cannot define eras by to the presence of electronics because items are still being made today that might not fit the definition. Same goes for a proposed "scale" era.

I think the most logical division would be by manufacturer: MPC, LTI, and LLC.

But I have to admit, I am fuzzy on the exact delineation of the manufacturers, and I seem to recall that there were some items that continued to be made unchanged in both the MPC and LTI periods.

Personally, my interest lies with Lionel trains made before 1994, which I think is about when mechanical E-units stopped being used in the collector targeted trains.

These all work for me: Pre-War, Post War, MPC. the 90's, and China. Maybe someday post-China.

The modern era ended yesterday.  Another modern era began today.

 

Rusty

I propose that when Lionel runs out of 5 digit numbers and has to go to 6-xxxxxx, we define that as the break point .  (I know I'm exaggerating a bit, but we can't be too far off!)

 

-Dave

>>>IMHO, the most important reason for defining eras is to enable us to communicate with each other. Therefore the division of eras needs to be concisely defined and easy to understand.<<

 

Pretty much says it all. 

With the exception of the great transition to subcontracting and offshore production in 2001, the Lionel modern era timeline has remained undefined pretty much throughout its open ended 43 year history.  Unless you're into instant collectables and phony limited editions, its never good for attracting real collector interest.

Joe

It would depend on what your using the term "modern era" for.

As has been said, to classify a given piece, you have the standard Pre, Post, QSI, Ps, Ps2, Ps3- Conventional, Cab-1, CAB-1a{?}, Legacy...

To classify a genre for the basis for your layout...early steam, late steam, early diesel, modern diesel and electics...then it would depend on the time frame you set in your head..."modern" in that aspect will never end especially when diesels are involved.

 

So, I guess it depends on the context in which the phrase is used.

probably overoptimistic to consider there won't eventually be a second prewar era.

it's certainly getting harder by the year to explain that term to younger people.

The modern era will end when:
Mth and Lionel make compatible command systems.
Lionel stops the remakes. And brings back the whistle steam.
York bans cell phones again
Mth starts to make american 0 scale steam engines again
Legacy upgrades are available
Lee stops repainting his new engines.
Scrappy comes back to 3 rail O
The ZWL is obsolete
The 1225 polar express has its true golden anniversary.
Lionel issues two premium catalogs a year again.

Mike Reagan retires

Actually we are in the DCC era. The next era will be the "DMC", or Digital Mind Control era. Don't laugh, it's coming folks and when it gets here in about ten years it will be like nothing we have seen as yet.

So, to make it simple the "DIGITAL ERA" may some up the post 2000 time frame. The line will be blurred by Traditional trains produce since then, but a defined era non the less.

 

SAM

As someone pointed out, the terminology is worked out when the history is clear, and usually defined by the victors .  While it could be defined by technology, as others have pointed out, this seems unlikely for various reasons.  While it could be defined by where the trains were made, I think this is also unlikely, as Lionel was importing long before they closed their factory in the USA, and their major competitors, MTH, K-Line (RIP) and Atlas never had domestic factories but were significant forces in the marketplace.

 

I think the modern era ended with the advent of TMCC/RS and MTH's competition in about 1995, give or take.  The next era was the competition/lawsuit/revenge era in which K-Line died, MTH tried to take over Lionel (we know how that turned out) and Lionel and MTH both used the legal system to further their goals.  When the dust cleared a few years ago, K-Line was gone, Atlas was a shadow of what they were at one time (at least in O gauge), and MTH was devoting its resources to HO and Europe.  So somewhere around 2008 is the beginning of the post-recession, post-lawsuit, post-competition era.  MTH is no longer  fiercely and wildly successfully competing with Lionel in the 3-rail domestic market overall, K-Line is gone, and Atlas isn't doing much as a full line train company these days, at least in my view.

 

So I'd propose that the end of the modern era occurred in 1995 with the beginning of the Wars of the Train Companies Era and the present era being the Post-Wars of the Train Companies Era which started with Lionel's emergence from bankruptcy in 2008.

A very good analysis. We need a name for these developments;

 

1995 - Present: Post Modern Era.

 

The Wikipedia(Lionel, LLC) authors have dubbed it "the Wellspring era".  ???????

 

1995 seems to be the date of change concurred by the posters here.

 

So, now, give it a name...

 >>>the terminology is worked out when the history is clear, and usually defined by the victors .  While it could be defined by technology, as others have pointed out, this seems unlikely for various reasons.  While it could be defined by where the trains were made, I think this is also unlikely, as Lionel was importing long before they closed their factory in the USA, and their major competitors, MTH, K-Line (RIP) and Atlas never had domestic factories but were significant forces in the marketplace.<<<

 

Actually, just as auto manufacturers have done for decades, Lionel imported or subcontracted out parts or pieces of sets years before the manufacturing facility closed down.  All of those parts still ended up at the factory. The end product was always labeled manufactured "BY" Lionel.

That is far different then the situation since where all production whether subcontracted here in the states or offshore is produced "FOR" Lionel.

In the 113 year Lionel timeline, no other event including a change in ownership or advances in technology comes close in significance. 

Lionel maintains multiple support facilities today. It doesn't diminish one major historical fact. It was the one major event in 2001 that ended Lionel as the manufacturer of toy trains to become Lionel the marketing company. 

 

One last thing.

Not sure how many notice this.   At least for me theres a natural feeling of contentment one feels when holding any of those pre2001 made by Lionel trains today. The charm, brilliance and simplicity of it is amazing.

Its one you'll never experience with current imported  trains whether its a classic PW look alike or a scale model with all the bells and whistles.

Joe

"It was the one major event in 2001 that ended Lionel as the manufacturer of toy trains to become Lionel the marketing company. "

 

"In the 113 year Lionel timeline, no other event including a change in ownership or advances in technology comes close in significance. "

 

Beg to respectfully disagree.  Where things are assembled matters very little to many or most of us. It's a political or emotional issue of great concern to many, of course.  And the people at Lionel who design products (e.g., Jon Zahornacky, for one) would not agree that they are merely a marketing company.

It's therefore, as we all concede, a matter of opinion .  Most of Lionel's high end locomotives were made in Korea from the late 1980s onward, so where stuff was produced had little effect on the way the market functioned, the products the consumer saw or the course of world history.  I think 1995 (more or less) is a more important watershed than 2001 because it marked the entry of MTH into full time competition and hostilities with Lionel, K-Line's and Atlas's becoming serious competitors, and the advent of command control and modern sounds.  Lionel, for the first time since the 1960s, had real competition.  2001 is important as you note, but more for emotional reasons than market or product reasons.  2008 (more or less) is a watershed (potentially) because it began the long slide into permanent second place by MTH, the resurrection of Lionel after the train wars and legal nonsense, and the disappearance of K-Line and Atlas as serious competitors to Lionel and MTH.

>>Beg to respectfully disagree.  Where things are assembled matters very little to many or most of us. It's a political or emotional issue of great concern to many, of course.  And the people at Lionel who design products (e.g., Jon Zahornacky, for one) would not agree that they are merely a marketing company<<

 

Sorry I disagree, Jon may be a important guy to Lionel, but it is what it is.

You're either a product manufacturer, which Lionel was and now is not, or something else. The best definition of Lionel's current state is a marketing company. And yes, except for the drawing of a finite line in the sand for historical purposes, it matters little today where or who produces anything.

Joe 

As has been stated, the Proper and accepted NAME will be defined in the future.

 

I can't see one company defining it either, it's the hobby in total that makes a significant change.

So from a Functional point of View, Command Control is a big change for most of the Trains we run.

 

I'd call the Current time the Modern Era, that is the definition in the book.

So Up to Command Control is the Conventional Or Pre-Command (Like Pre-War) Period.

And just because some engines don't have Command in them does not matter, they are still being made now, in the modern timeframe that I expect will become the Command Control Period.

 

But Hey, Does it really matter now? No.

Run your Trains, Have FUN !!!

No one here is really going to decide this era question, however ....

 

The years 2000 - 2001 define the watershed moment.

 

Once Dick Maddox was hired by Lionel to specifically move production overseas, as he had done for Bachmann, the "die was cast". The biggest boy followed the smaller ones. By in large Lionel-branded trains were physically still very much the same as a product line up until the Millenium. Once production was fully established overseas for Lionel, as well as everyone else, the trains became distinctly and materially different because of the extensive new tooling, assembly in different factories on a different continent by different workers, etc. (i.e., compare Centiry Club 1 offerings vs. those for Century Club 2). Command control did not become a dominant market factor until the turn of the century.

 

Since 2001, digital command control has became fully established for many brands and several gauges. Most domestic manufacturing has ceased. The lawsuit of MTH against Lionel is a key feature of our current period and its outcome continues to contribute to the shape the new era we are now in. Some are trying to slice and dice things too narrowly. As with the definition of previous eras, the assignment of a demarcation will eventully be pegged upon a true sea change, not incremental ones. 

 

1970 - 2000 - Modern Era

2001 - Present - "Post Modern"

 

Bob

Since 1970, there have not been and probably won't be any clear-cut dividing lines between eras. Changes in ownerships since 1970, while important, have not been clearly seen throughout a product line.

 

Future collector/operators will want to know the features of the trains they buy, but will be more interested in command vs. conventional, mechanical reverse vs. electronic reverse, open frame motor vs. can motor, scale detailed vs. merely scale size vs. traditional size, etc., etc.

 

But, none of these features have clear-cut beginning and ending dates to delineate eras.

 

Perhaps, it is best that we don't wish for anything more definitive such as world wars, extended gaps in production, alien invasions, etc., etc.

 

Jim

We all agree the modern era, which began in 1970 or so, is so over .  We'll let our children or grandchildren come up with the definitive names and dates.  For the present it may be best to "restrict" ourselves to fooling around with the trains we collect, accumulate, play with and about which we meditate, remonstrate or demonstrate.

>>Since 1970, there have not been and probably won't be any clear-cut dividing lines between eras. Changes in ownerships since 1970, while important, have not been clearly seen throughout a product line.<<

 

Jim, you do realize that same analogy can be used to discredit the PW to modern era transition.  It is still a good generalization of the times for all production during the modern era.  Problem is its not nearly specific enough for defining Lionel's timeline for those interested in collecting modern era Lionel.

And thats really what we're talking about here.   Establishing reliable recognized dates for collectable purposes of Lionel between 1970 and current.  Without the incentive to establish finite dates, does it matter today or in the future which manufacturer or era produced anything?   Me thinks no.

Without it, there's no practical reason to keep a record. 

Joe

>>We'll let our children or grandchildren come up with the definitive names and dates<<

 

Good idea.   About the same way congress deals with the national debt.

Joe

That's the course I plan to follow, Jim!  

I don't care what era they call it, I don't care where my trains are made. 

 

What I do care is that the trains I buy are the best they can be, plain and simple. nothing else matters. 

 

Joe,

 

That's true. But, what makes that change of ownership "different" for many of us is that, although production never really stopped for a significant length of time, there was a sense at the time that it was all over, and that Lionel trains were done for. There was the feeling that Fundimensions saved it just before the bell.

 

Of course, there was also the feeling among some that, although it was just a change of ownership, it wasn't the one and only original Lionel anymore. They may have still been called Lionel, but.....!!! 

 

So while the much maligned MPC products weren't really that much lower in quality than the last of the "real" Lionel in the late 60s, selective memory usually sees them as an era of diminished quality, odd-looking plastic freight car trucks, plastic gears, and fantasy whiskey, tobacco, candy, and soda freight cars. That made them a new era.

 

As Lionel products increased in quality and realism in subsequent years, that image faded and Lionel eventually once again became first rate in the eyes of collector/operators, but it is hard to draw a clear enough line to warrant a new era.

 

Jim

 

Try:

 

Renaissance 1970-1999

 

signifies rebirth or revival, applies fairly to all manufacturers

>>Joe, That's true. But, what makes that change of ownership "different" for many of us is that, although production never really stopped for a significant length of time, there was a sense at the time that it was all over, and that Lionel trains were done for. There was the feeling that Fundimensions saved it just before the bell.

 

Of course, there was also the feeling among some that, although it was just a change of ownership, it wasn't the one and only original Lionel anymore. They may have still been called Lionel, but.....!!! 

 

So while the much maligned MPC products weren't really that much lower in quality than the last of the "real" Lionel in the late 60s, selective memory usually sees them as an era of diminished quality, odd-looking plastic freight car trucks, plastic gears, and fantasy whiskey, tobacco, candy, and soda freight cars. That made them a new era. 

As Lionel products increased in quality and realism in subsequent years, that image faded, but it is hard to draw a clear enough line to warrant a new era. Jim<<<

 

Jim, your points are well taken.

However, you're basing your assessment of the PW/Modern era transition to the gradual evolution of Lionel quality and the feeling of change most fans had with the new product line (originality) rather then giving credit to a specific event (new facility, new methods of manufacturing) that produced a different looking product and transformed Lionel into a new modern entity.

 

Why wouldn't the same hold true in 2001.   Different time, different specifics, but this time originality ("Made in China") subcontracting and the gradual improvement in quality for Lionel doesn't matter?

I think most will agree, for better or worse, the demise of Lionel the manufacturer was the most significant change ever in Lionels 113 year history.  A regretable transition every bit as dynamic and worthy of a historic mark in time as that of 1969.

Whatever the case, as someone noted above, it'll never be settled on this board.

Joe   

Why not simply 'Late 20th century' and '21st century'? 

>>Why not simply 'Late 20th century' and '21st century'?<<

 

Since the 21st century began 1/1/2001 you've nailed the correct dates.

 

Lionel 20th Century modern

Lionel 21st Century modern

Joe 

The Modern age came and went with the Myian Calendar in 2012, then it became the new modern era. it will last till 2113.

I always felt that this era should be called "the digital era", with the start date perhaps sometime around 1993 with the advent of TMCC and Protosounds as two major features that drove buying decisions and ushered in the command control and sound advancements we're still enjoying.