Z500 puzzling operation question

It could be a defective Z500, wiring wise. Did you by chance try another engine to see if the same thing happened. If that engine was fine then it could also be that engine but if another engine acts the same way then it has to be the Z500...........Paul

Off-hand it sounds like the Z-Controller may have an issue, it's likely broken. 

The horn and whistle function is accomplished by imparting a DC bias to the AC waveform.  I have a Z-500 controller on my workbench, at zero volts the whistle/bell does nothing as it should.  At higher voltages, they do impart about a 4V DC bias on the AC waveform and might cause the locomotive to speed up slightly.

Walt,

   Guns is giving you good advise about the Z-500, they are definite a small entry level Transformer, better than the CW-80 for sure however upgrade to a Z-1000 and your problems will disappear.

PCRR/Dave

I think his Z500 controller is simply broken, no way a working unit would demonstrate that kind of issue.  I use a Z500 with the same controller on my test bench, it's never done that, and it doesn't do that now.

Guns,

   More than likely true, they are after all engineered as a throw away entry level Transformer, good chance his is probably shot.  Used as you do for testing however it could last a long long time.

Time for a Z-1000

PCRR/Dave

FYI Dave, the internal parts in the Z500 controller are identical to the Z1000 controller, so if the Z500 controller is crap, so is the Z1000 controller, they're really the same under the skin.

Guns,

   As I have always said the Z-1000 is the minimum Transformer to purchase for your small layout.  That removes the Z-500 and the Z-750 from any consideration and throws the CW-80 in the circle 7 file.

PCRR/Dave

Does anyone have a schematic of the z1000 (or 500-750) controller and power pack?  I'm curious what is in these that would make them any better of a choice than a CW80.  It seems to me there wouldn't be any difference in one microprocessor controlled triac device and another.  The only small design flaw I see in the cw80 is the lack of any protection to the triac from track shorts.  Perhaps the MTH product addressed this issue?  

JGL

John, I don't know of any schematic of the Z controller, but it's a pretty simple device.  On the 'scope, the waveform looks very similar to the CW-80, and I can't imagine why it would be a vastly superior choice.  The Z1000 brick is convenient for smaller layouts, but that's just a brick transformer.  In any case, I far prefer the Lionel Powerhouse 180 if I want just a brick, much better circuit breaker than any of the MTH transformer bricks.

I will make sure that my Brother In Law reads these comments.  I'm sure he'll be really grateful

Thanks guys - walt

The early controllers where in fact different, I also believe the Z-500 is different.  It was the Z-750 and 1000 that MTH went to a common controller for.  Makes sense.  IF you order a controller board the Z-1000 version is what you get.

Walt, this was not the same controller you were using on the TIU when you had issues was it?  Or was that someone else?

I will throw my opinion into the mix.  Something is wrong with the Z-500 controller.   G

Well, the Z500 controller I have uses the Q2015L5 triac that is rated at 15A, and I can run 5A at 18V through it on the bench for an extended period, it seems not to have any issue with that power level.  What makes the Z-750 & Z-1000 controllers different?  When I had a Z-750 here, that board looked identical to the one in the Z-500 controller.  I don't have one to look at now, so I can't compare at this point.  Anyone have a shot of the PCB from the Z-750 or Z-1000?

GGG posted:

The early controllers where in fact different, I also believe the Z-500 is different.  It was the Z-750 and 1000 that MTH went to a common controller for.  Makes sense.  IF you order a controller board the Z-1000 version is what you get.

Walt, this was not the same controller you were using on the TIU when you had issues was it?  Or was that someone else?

I will throw my opinion into the mix.  Something is wrong with the Z-500 controller.   G

GGG:  The trannie is my Brother In Law's on HIS layout, not mine.  Interesting the detail that you remember about things!!!!!!!!!!!

thanks for jumping in - walt

I think there was fairly universal agreement that the Z-controller is broken.

I agree John.

Here's what I'm fighting though: his brother has a bunch of electrical patents, not on trains.  But the point is he is electrically in tune.  He does trains, but HO.  He told my Brother In Law that it's probably a case where a 'newer' MTH trannie doesn't perform correctly when used with an older engine.  I KNOW that's hogwash because I run my PW engines with my 1000.

Besides, when in God's name have you ever heard of a trannie putting out a lot of volts when the handle is set at '0' - just because a horn or whistle button was pressed?  NEVER, that's when.

Try to convince someone though?  That's a different question.  Why should I care though, it's not my layout.  But still, you want to help, right?

thanks for all of the input

- walt