3rd Rail GP9

@kanawha posted:

The C&O Historical Society published the book Chesapeake and Ohio Diesel Locomotives some decades ago. This is the best source for C&O diesel numbering, paint schemes, details, etc. All the GP-7's the C&O ordered in the paint scheme that's on your GP-7 were numbered between 5700 and 5797. Also none had dynamic brakes. The number appears to be an error. The presence of dynamic brakes appear to be a problem with too many variations amongst too many road names for the builder to agree to.

Here's a C & O GP7 numbered 5882 in that paint scheme - minus the "C & O for progress" emblem - with dynamic breaks.
https://www.railpictures.net/photo/383324/

Here's one with the scheme, emblem, and dynamic brakes #5828
https://www.railpictures.net/photo/330360/
https://www.railpictures.net/photo/336973/

Other than that, the only inaccuracy on the model IMHO is the low cab number.

Im curious on how many ordered the GP7 demonstrator.

"Scott does his best and is in a whole different realm of accuracy and customer service than anybody else in O scale. 50 some odd variations with countless era and road specific details! Cut the guy some slack."

This argument is of course ludicrous   'Hey boss I finished up today but I did so much 25 percent of it may be wrong.'  Give that man a..... cigar.  This forum sub section was originally created so those that enjoyed the prototype could have fun discussions concerning the accuracy of individual models as they relate to details, paint, road numbers and a host of many other aspects that create an accurate model. If this is discouraged here where does one suppose these talks take place ?  Any attempt to stifle valid criticisms of related models by any manufacturer I suspect would be unwelcome here  as this is the very purpose of this forum.  Ironically, to difuse any other arguement, Scott does in fact appreciate and wants criticism and reviews of his models.  He knows this is how he gets better and what to correct and look out for in future runs.  If everyone remained silent and bowed to the creator 3rd Rail would be putting out the same efforts as they did 10 years ago.  However, what you do make a good case for is that 3rd Rail do smaller and more accurate runs.  An interesting and vaild point.

- Crank

@Eccentric Crank posted:

Scott does in fact appreciate and wants criticism and reviews of his models.  He knows this is how he gets better and what to correct and look out for in future runs.  

As much as it painful to read and experience dissatisfaction due to, this statement is spot on.  Valid criticism is required even though Scott and all of us who help him take errors very personally.

We are going back and checking research, looking at painting diagrams, and documenting errors.  Some are factory errors and some are not but Scott always tells me regardless an error is an error.

I know that is not much solace for someone who is disappointed, but that is why 3rd Rail does have a very fair return policy.     

@Eccentric Crank posted:

"Scott does his best and is in a whole different realm of accuracy and customer service than anybody else in O scale. 50 some odd variations with countless era and road specific details! Cut the guy some slack."

This argument is of course ludicrous   'Hey boss I finished up today but I did so much 25 percent of it may be wrong.'  Give that man a..... cigar.  This forum sub section was originally created so those that enjoyed the prototype could have fun discussions concerning the accuracy of individual models as they relate to details, paint, road numbers and a host of many other aspects that create an accurate model. If this is discouraged here where does one suppose these talks take place ?  Any attempt to stifle valid criticisms of related models by any manufacturer I suspect would be unwelcome here  as this is the very purpose of this forum.  Ironically, to difuse any other arguement, Scott does in fact appreciate and wants criticism and reviews of his models.  He knows this is how he gets better and what to correct and look out for in future runs.  If everyone remained silent and bowed to the creator 3rd Rail would be putting out the same efforts as they did 10 years ago.  However, what you do make a good case for is that 3rd Rail do smaller and more accurate runs.  An interesting and vaild point.

- Crank

Never have been against valid criticism or discussing the accuracy of things on the 3RS forum. Obviously that’s how these get better. I’ll say it again though. The criticism is best sent directly to Scott where it won’t take on a life of its own and misrepresent the overall quality of the larger production run.

The GT&W engines with the grievances were not anywhere near 25% of anything so I’m not sure where you were going with that analogy. It was one road name that had a couple of discrepancies from prototype photos that people just couldn’t seem to get enough of. That being said if you were to have come to this thread to see photos of the geeps from this production run, you woulda thought Scott had cranked out a container full of black roofed GT&W geeps. The reposting photos of number boards, roof colors, and the GT logo after we had all seen it a few times by then was not advancing the conversation at all.

@GG1 4877 posted:

As much as it painful to read and experience dissatisfaction due to, this statement is spot on.  Valid criticism is required even though Scott and all of us who help him take errors very personally.

We are going back and checking research, looking at painting diagrams, and documenting errors.  Some are factory errors and some are not but Scott always tells me regardless an error is an error.

I know that is not much solace for someone who is disappointed, but that is why 3rd Rail does have a very fair return policy.     

Thank Jonathan and Scott, for being so responsive to this situation.

I sympathize with both sides, Scott runs a complex and challenging operation. I can’t pretend I understand all that goes into such enterprise. I really appreciate this attention to customer satisfaction.

On the consumer side, these are are boutique items in a boutique hobby with very high expectations. The wait time and cost of these models is significant to most of us with limited resources.

I had a similar situation last year with another manufacturer. I totally understand the disappointment and frustration on the consumer side. It was a CP SD-40, delivered in neon red with a defective drive.

Unlike Scott and 3rd Rail, I had very poor support from the vendors. No response from the manufacturer and the retailer did not want give me store credit for the return.

I appreciate the no hassle return policy. I really hope there is a 2nd run which corrects the short comings of this run.

@GG1 4877 posted:

As much as it painful to read and experience dissatisfaction due to, this statement is spot on.  Valid criticism is required even though Scott and all of us who help him take errors very personally.

We are going back and checking research, looking at painting diagrams, and documenting errors.  Some are factory errors and some are not but Scott always tells me regardless an error is an error.

I know that is not much solace for someone who is disappointed, but that is why 3rd Rail does have a very fair return policy.     

Kudos for taking this point of view.  My efforts here (and on another thread) to "defend" 3rd Rail are simply pointing out that the initial impressions of what are "wrong" with a model are not always fact.  Some folks have pointed out models that have say three errors, but then in reality, there did exist a prototype where that existed, but some other minor detail was different.  So does the model have one or three errors? In another thread someone stated that all N&W Tuscan red GP9s were the latter configuration with 2 48" roof fans.  A quick search on the rail photo sites proves that to be patently false.  Yes the number was wrong - but fixing that doesn't require making any parts, just some paint and time.  Sure it would be great if were all correct from day one - but we live in a world where I have four different types of DGLE across three PRR prototype models from the same manufacture respond with "no comment".

Personally I'd much prefer having models like these that accurate dimensionally, and have a wrong cab number - than have ones that are better characterized as caricatures of the real thing.  I applaud your efforts Jonathan, both in the the attempt and your willingness to learn from mistakes.

Well my GP7 and GP9's have arrived. So far I have only pulled out the GP7.

I will upload better pics later. I received the #8551 which is correct for a PRR "torpedo tube" GP7. Most of the details are stunning! But I guess we cant have it all as Sunset went "cookie cutter" on the fuel and air tank undercarrige. The PRR GP7 had the air tanks on the roof and a 3 strap equipment box where the EMD "standard" air tanks went- hence the reason for the "torpedo Tubes". It appears the fuel tank/air tanks ate die cast so i will have to see if I can grind off or grind back the air tanks and install a psc 2 strap equipment box. Other than that, the paint, roof details, cab interior, wipers look awesome!

@prrhorseshoecurve posted:

It appears the fuel tank/air tanks are die cast so i will have to see if I can grind off or grind back the air tanks and install a psc 2 strap equipment box.

Everything is brass no die-cast here.

@rplst8 posted:

Here's a C & O GP7 numbered 5882 in that paint scheme - minus the "C & O for progress" emblem - with dynamic breaks.
https://www.railpictures.net/photo/383324/

Here's one with the scheme, emblem, and dynamic brakes #5828
https://www.railpictures.net/photo/330360/
https://www.railpictures.net/photo/336973/

Other than that, the only inaccuracy on the model IMHO is the low cab number.

The picture links you posted are indeed GP7's. However, I think you missed what I tried to point out. The particular GP-7 paint scheme 3RD Rail produced is from the first order of C&O GP-7's. These were characterized by the solid yellow frame and the yellow meatball /donut heralds. this scheme was only done on 5700-5797. They were ordered for the C&O Northern Division (ex-Pere Marquette lines) so they didn't need and weren't ordered with dynamic brakes.

The engines in the picture links are from the second order of GP-7's some of which had dynamic brakes. These engines had a blue frame and the "for Progress" heralds. This paint scheme was used on GP-7's 5800-5900 as well as GP-9's 5901-6048.

There were two more original order GP-9 schemes . The third scheme dropped the stripes on the hoods and went to a solid yellow frame. The fourth scheme looked like the third scheme except the lettering font was changed from Railroad Roman to Futura, the road number moved to the long hood, and the for Progress herald placed under the cab. window.

Unfortunately the GP-9 3RD Rail modeled is numbered 6089. This puts it in the third paint scheme (6049 - 6208) - yellow frame, no hood stripes. The order was for units 6009-6208 and the C&O changed from the second to third scheme partway through the order.

What it all comes down to is without a really good reference book or pictures of the exact prototype that's being modeled its pretty easy to get something wrong. I feel for what Scott had to go through with all the different variations between railroads and paint schemes and then having to deal with the builder about it. Plenty of opportunities for something to go wrong - Ugh!

Ken

Wait....this isn't from the same group of consumers who also buy "Thomas", "Polar Express" and "Spongebob" stuff, is it? Nah, couldn't be. Heck, you guys are pickier than the N and HO crowd... 😁😁😁

Also, isn't it interesting that both this and the S scale group are currently reviewing first generation diesels. I guess it's true that "the classics never die".

Mark in Oregon

@Strummer posted:

Wait....this isn't from the same group of consumers who also buy "Thomas", "Polar Express" and "Spongebob" stuff, is it? Nah, couldn't be. Heck, you guys are pickier than the N and HO crowd... 😁😁😁

Mark in Oregon

I doubt that many in the 3 Rail SCALE section of the forum are running those items you mention.

Steve

Steve, I wouldnt be so sure of the SCALE Polar Express.

My two CNJ units are due to arrive on Monday.  Questions for folks who have received any of these GP7/9's (or prior Sunset/3rd Rail diesels) in 3-rail configuration...

Have any of you added Kadee or Protocraft couplers?  If so, is it a fairly straight-forward installation?  These are my first purchases from 3rd Rail, so I'm not familiar with the pilot design/configuration.

I have some experience adding fixed pilots, Kadees and full-length handrails to a few 3-rail locomotives...I'm just trying to figure out how much work I'm in for with these.

Truth be told, I was seriously considering ordering the 2-rail version...but I chickened out at the last minute!!  It would have been my first "straight" 2-rail locomotive purchase.  I've dipped my toes in the 2-rail waters recently with a few MTH 2-Rail scale (3/2) Premier locomotives, but I haven't taken the full-blown 2-rail plunge yet!

@prrhorseshoecurve posted:

Steve, I wouldnt be so sure of the SCALE Polar Express.

@L & N posted:

I doubt that many in the 3 Rail SCALE section of the forum are running those items you mention.

Steve

I'm sure you're right... but I just couldn't resist! 🙂

In the meantime, I will continue to enjoy my Red Caboose Geeps...and hope you all find some satisfaction with these new offerings. How is the performance, by the way?

Mark in Oregon

@CNJ #1601 posted:

My two CNJ units are due to arrive on Monday.  Question for folks who have received these (or prior Sunset/3rd Rail diesels) in 3-rail configuration...

Have any of you added Kadee or Protocraft couplers?  If so, is it a fairly straight-forward installation?  These are my first purchases from 3rd Rail, so I'm not familiar with the pilot configuration.

3 rail offerings often have all the hardware needed to convert to a Kadee coupler including the bracket, screws, and the couplers.  Other than a few small screws that are occasionally fairly tight, it is an easy change from 3 rail to Kadee couplers.  The ones I have done take about 15 minutes.  In this run though, all mine are 2 rail.  

@Strummer posted:

Also, isn't it interesting that both this and the S scale group are currently reviewing first generation diesels. I guess it's true that "the classics never die".

Mark in Oregon

That's because S Scalers don't have the variety available that the 3RS and 2RS folks have.

Rusty

@GG1 4877 posted:

3 rail offerings often have all the hardware needed to convert to a Kadee coupler including the bracket, screws, and the couplers.  Other than a few small screws that are occasionally fairly tight, it is an easy change from 3 rail to Kadee couplers.  The ones I have done take about 15 minutes.  In this run though, all mine are 2 rail.

Thanks for the reply, Jonathan.  Seeing your photos of the CNJ's with the highly-detailed pilots earlier in this thread makes me wish I convinced myself to order them in 2-rail!  I'll have some work to do to fill in all that open space in the 3-rail pilots.

CNJ, they come with the parts to cover the space up.

@Big Jim posted:

CNJ, they come with the parts to cover the space up.

Thanks for your reply, Big Jim.  I misunderstood Jonathan's explanation above.  I was picturing the Kadees would just get mounted at the top of the large opening in the 3-rail pilot.  Thanks for the clarification!