4x8 layout with O72 Wye Switches

With 2 and 5 as the average age of the engineers, I would advise on having as few operating rules as possible and buy used/cheap stuff. (Don't put your $1,200 wizzbang on the track and then say don't touch). Little ones want to handle and operate stuff. They get bored real quick watching an adult "operating session."  They like gondola cars carrying anything they can find that fits. And a tunnel, even if its a cardboard box.

Keep us in the loop and have fun.

GVDolber,

thanks for the response. I agree about the used stuff. Everything I’ve purchased so far has been used(I’m no prepared to drop $500-$1000 on a engine).

I already picked up a circa 1999 Lionel NYC Freight set for $60 on Craigslist for the 2 year old to use (and abuse). When the 2 year old isn’t with us I want the option of something more fun for the 5 year old to keep his interest.

I’m really hoping the z-1000’s are sturdy enough to allow the kids to actually do the operating. Do you see a problem with that?

The Z-1000 is pretty rugged. I did manage to [finally] wear out the throttle (speed control knob) on one but I operate a switching pike with lots of stops&starts*reverses, all handled with the knob.

They also like little people and animals. They have them ride in creative places on the train.

@geysergazer posted:

The Z-1000 is pretty rugged. I did manage to [finally] wear out the throttle (speed control knob) on one but I operate a switching pike with lots of stops&starts*reverses, all handled with the knob.

I second this word for word. Mine has got some years on it and is still kickin' even though it has a strange dead spot about 25% of the way up. I don't even notice though. I think the Z-1000 is good for what you're doing. 

I also think it's great to get kids started in this! Model railroading is one of the things I blame my engineering career choice on. There's so much that can be taught/learned/imagination-ated via model railroading!

thanks for all the responses so far. I wish my father had taken an interest in models and trains with me when I was my sons age. It’s good to hear the z-1000’s sturdy. In terms of the layout does anyone have experience with the O72Wye connectors in the proposed configuration?

Open gondolas are great.  Anything that moves or makes noise when you push a button is great too.  Operating Gate-man is a classic. So is a building with a whistle in it.  I will say, use doorbell buttons for activation.   The cheap $2 kind are easy for kids to push.  Just don't get the lighted buttons because they let current through to the accessory all the time.  

Sorry I can't help with fastrack other than warn you that it's loud.  It's a rugged product and it can usually get stepped on without bending out of shape.  However hollow rails on a rigid plastic road bed with a big air gap underneath yields alot of background roar.  As long as the kids aren't overly noise sensitive it will only bother the adults.   I really like your track plan.  It looks like a lot of fun in a reasonable space. 

My polar express layout has several fastrack switches (including 2 o-72 wyes for passing sidings) and my locos operate in a smooth manner, no derailments. Looking at your plan it’ll be fun for the kids if you make a game out of delivering freight cars with a minimum number of loops required to deliver. I did this with my nephew; but as he has gotten older, we’re adding/building a “time saver” layout to the loops to add complexity and additional requirements to freight delivery. In the early years, my nephew liked loops, then, as he aged, I needed to find games we could play with the layout to make keep it engaging and with the time saver it’ll add some competition between the two of us. 

My personal favorite is loops because I love watching the trains, but the kids want a puzzle to solve (at least in preteen/early teen years). It’s been fun watching him add complexity to our small o gauge layout. For me, It’s nice to be teaching him electrical theory, carpentry, and problem solving. I’m fairly young for being active in this hobby, but I am thankful to have learned so many skills by playing with my trains.

No problems with the Fastrack Y I use in a yard.  Slow speed locos run through without stalling.

You'll be fine with Z1000s.   At the club we use 2 of them to power our hands on layout that young kids operate themselves.  They get abused 6 hrs at a time at our shows and last a long time before having to be replaced.

-Greg

Hey @GG14449 be careful using RailModeller with the 072 FasTrack wyes - the dimensions in that app don't match the physical dimensions of the switch. I learned that lesson the hard way a couple months back. I raised this issue up on the RailModeller forum, but I don't think it's been fixed yet.

http://forum.railmodeller.com/...c.php?f=4&t=4390

Like most of the FasTrack switches, the wyes also have a "nose" on switching side and require special 1 3/8" straights with roadbed on only one side (included with the switch) before you can connect other switches or regular track pieces. IMO this isn't demonstrated very clearly in any of the modeling software and can easily mess up your designs.

I have AnyRail software as well, which I think has correct dimensions for the FasTrack 072 wyes. Let me see if I can whip up something similar to your plan in that SW.

Attached is a plan from AnyRail and a parts list. Couple things to note about the parts list:

• The 036 RH/LH switches come with an 036 1/4 curve. You need 4x total but you'll only need to buy 1 additional since you'll have 3x from the 036 switches already
• The 072 wye switches each come with 2x 1 3/8" straights with roadbed on 1 side and 1x 1 3/8" straight with no roadbed, so you'll only need to purchase the 4x. You'll need 10x total but only 4x of the regular ones (roadbed on both sides) for the outer loop between the switches. You could also use the extras instead if you don't mind some missing roadbed.

It's also worth noting that the center rail to center rail clearance between the two loops is only 3.5" at the upper ends of the 031 turns. You'll want to test that out and ensure trains won't hit each other in those spots. You could add an extra short straight on the outer loop if you were able to add a couple extra inches to the width of your table.

Very cool of you to do this.  The small details like the fitter pieces and the close clearances are very important. 

Wow Mike,

thanks for taking the time to redo the layout design. It disappointing to hear that Railmodeller isn’t accurate.

And that’s a good point about the tracks Potentially being too close around the top curves. I might have to revisit the design.

Im going to start work on the fold down table soon. The space is tight so I might not be able to add to the width. Maybe I’ll come up with an (More expensive) alternative design without Wye switches that would allow for more space between the tracks.

Nice layout for a smaller space. Any chance Mike0289 can attach the AnyRail file to the thread -- I've got a grandson that needs a new layout and this one might suit very well.  Thanks

i use a WYE in the mainline of my layout, no issues at all.  I really like the Fastrack WYE, it creates some good opportunities.

I should have attached the AnyRail file earlier! 4x8_072_wyes.any is the design I posted earlier.

Here's another option that uses 036 switches for the crossovers instead - if you're not invested in getting remote/command switches, you can find the manual ones pretty cheap. This design has better clearance between the loops. Parts list and AnyRail file attached as well.

I added a 1 3/8" section to each of the outer short sides. It would make a small bump out necessary between the wyes but it eliminates the S turns. Food for thought.

mike,

That second layout looks like a nice option. Is the inner loop still blocked from the outer loop to allow for conventional operation of two trains(one for each son)?

And Jon, forgive my ignorance but what are the “s curves” you are referencing and why should they be avoided?

Generally speaking, the S turn is to be avoided if it changes direction within the length of single car. There have been many threads on that subject if you search for them. 

Definitely forgot to add 1 3/8" sections between the switches to isolate the loops. I will rework the design for you tonight and post a new version. Any other requests while I'm at it?

Mike,

Can you throw in the kitchen sink too? 
I really appreciate your efforts and look forward to see what you come up with.

Here's an updated version with 1 3/8" sections, which can be used to isolate the center rail via the jumper on the bottom, between the inner and outer loops. I reworked the passing siding, which made it a bit longer, and also allowed the inner loop and the siding to extend over a bit more. Minimum center to center is about 4" which I think should be ok as long as you're not running long passenger cars or scale locomotives.

I love the fact you're getting something set up so you can enjoy running trains with your sons. It's never too early to start! My son is only one but he hangs out in the spare room and watches the trains with me sometimes - hopefully it'll stick and we can enjoy the hobby together!

Mike,

that looks like a really good option. I think it would keep both boys busy for a while. Thanks again for putting the effort in.

Jon, can you post an image of the changes you made? I don’t have AnyRail to view the file you posted.

Just noodling. I only have the trial version so I ran out of sections to finish.

Jon,

That looks really nice. Very smooth curves. I've building a fold down layout in the garage so I'd have to see how to address the wye switche going off the edge.

I read another forum post with some good ideas for a 4x8 layout. Based on that here's another option using O60 switches and O36 switches. I didn't know that you can block sections with Fastrack other than the 5" block sections. It would be more expensive for the O60 remote switches vs the Wye switches but maybe worth it to avoid more S curves.

For sure the bigger the curves the better. 

Yep, I usually try to use 072 switches when putting crossovers in my designs. Semi-scale/027 locomotives and rolling stock would probably be ok on the 036 crossovers, especially with the extra 1 3/8" straight breaking up the S-curve a bit. But if you're buying switches either way and can fit something with a wider radius, your design will be more future proof.

Regarding block separation, the 1 3/8" straight sections have a jumper for the center rail only while I believe the 5" block section has jumpers for all 3 rails. I don't think you need to disconnect the outer rails - linking the ground connection between the transformers should be fine as long as the center rails are separated.

I'm going to have to get up to speed on the wiring. I read that blocking allows for two train operation but don't know the "how" of it yet(If there are any forum threads you recommend I read - I'm all ears). I was also wondering about operating track sections. Is it possible to convert a 5" section to activate operating cars(like a coal/log car)? It would be nice to be able to have operating section on the short ends of the layout but that might not be possible with the limited space. . .

Remember, with a fold down layout, your plan can be flipped so that any "extra width" track is attached with some extra lumber on the side that doesn't touch the floor.

In conventional operation, the voltage on the center rail directly translates to the speed of the train and momentary interruptions in that voltage (via the direction button on the transformer) trigger direction changes - Forward <-> Neutral <-> Reverse. So to run two trains independently on two loops of track, you need two transformers, each connected to one of the loops. When the loops are connected via switches, you must keep the center rails separated so that the transformer controlling the train on the inner loop doesn't affect the train on the outer loop and vice versa. If you wire the two loops up like they're completely separate and then disconnect the center rail jumper on the 1 3/8" straight sections between the switches, you should be fine.

I don't think it would be practical to convert a 5" uncoupling section to function as an operating section. You'd need to add the extra rails for the slider shoes on the operating cars and the accompanying wiring. I would sooner rework my track plan to fit operating tracks where I want them than try to upgrade an uncoupling section. Maybe a different track brand has a shorter operating section you could use? You'd still need to fit in sections to convert between FasTrack joiners and the other brand, though.

Any particular reason you want operating tracks on the short ends? You could sort of put one on the short end of the outer loop if you're willing to give up the passing siding. There's not enough room to do the same on the inner loop, though. This design does give the inner loop a little more run length and makes your siding longer.

If you just want an operating track on each loop, you could just replace a 10" straight on the top part of 4x8_2 in both the inner and outer loops and keep the passing siding as well.

Wow, a there are a lot of great options here.

I thought adding some operating track to the ends could add some fun activity for the kids. Not imperative but it could be fun.

I’m planning the fold down table now and am looking to see if I can squeeze another foot on the end making the table 4x9. That could allow for a larger inner loop 

Turns out 4x8 is the biggest I can reasonably do in the space(I want to be able fold the table down while the car is still parked in the garage).

i have a ton of great options now. I’ll post updates on our progress.

Definitely share updates! Can't wait to see your layout!

Looks great. Here is the latest version of my sons bunk bed layout. https://youtu.be/PS0hStx3-pA
He is 8 years old. In my experience at 2 and 5 you might consider starting with two loops and no switches. Let each of them run one train and just play. Less chance for trains to collide and derail when they run at Mach speed.  We have changed the layout many times and that is one of the fun parts. As they grow add the switches and operating tracks etc.

Enjoy the process and I hope these videos will give you some inspiration for your project!

Here’s a progress update on the fold down 4x8 layout. The goal is to have a basic Christmas themed layout with set up for my boys as a surprise on Christmas morning. The piano hinge seems to work well and I now need to figure out how to best lower and close it safely.

Here is a 4x8 Fastrack version of the Cisco layout published in OGR magazine.  AnyRail tolerance set to 1/32" for a tight fit.

Minimum curve O36.  The outer loop is compound O48 & O36.  Turnouts are O60 and O48.  Minimum center rail spacing is 4/25", which runs traditional and LionChief just fine (tested with many locos and cars).  O36 comes with the Lionel sets, and I would rather purchase O48 than add O31 - the tighter curves don't look as good to my eyes, but personal choice.

Alternative:  Smoother curvature on the outer loop.

Outer loop O48/O36 compound should run most O42 equipment fine, but have not tested much.  The compound diameter works out to be O44.5.

If you want more spurs, you can try these sorts of ideas:

When running the inside loop, the "S" curve highlighted is actually quite gradual, with O60 leading at both ends, and O48 in the middle.  LionChief/Traditional trains actually look good navigating this alignment.  This plan is still just two nested loops, but the indented inside loop adds interest, and the short cross-over sections between turnouts is actually large enough to park a loco or setout cars, to trade off cars between the inside and outside routes.

To the OP's original question, the O72 and O60 turnouts are bulletproof, never any problems.  I have just one older O48 turnout that occasionally causes derailments at high speed.  I have not bought one recently (within 10 years).

The little guys like to run at high speed, so you might try to limit the top speed with conventional control, or by using the smartphone app that allows you to limit the top speed on LionChief/bluetooth locos.  And/Or add a border around three sides with a thin strip of clear acrylic plastic, standing about 1/2" above the top of the layout board.

I really like your fold-up layout idea!  The turnouts toward the top/back of the layout should be remote, rather than manual, but the front turnouts are reachable.  Good luck!