If I were to find a 2 rail MTH engine with proto 2, could I gut the electronics out and just add my own DCC sound decoder?  Much like I am going to do with this Atlas GP35 with TMCC.

roll_the_dice posted:

If I were to find a 2 rail MTH engine with proto 2, could I gut the electronics out and just add my own DCC sound decoder?  Much like I am going to do with this Atlas GP35 with TMCC.

Definitely. That would not be a problem at all gutting the  MTH electronics.

Back in the day I had two Atlas 2 rail locomotives with TMCC. One I sold (which I regret because it was a rare paint scheme) and the other one is a GP35. I bought a 3 rail F unit dummy and all parts to make it powered from Atlas. After powering the trucks I switched the trucks so that the GP35 is now 3 rail “scale” with TMCC and the former dummy is 2 rail with a Loksound decoder that I had someone install. I am very happy with the Loksound sounds. I am not sure what version it is. Probably the older version. I figure if I ever go over someone’s house that runs 3 rail scale I have a locomotive I can run there. I probably should have gutted it like you are planning to do but I hated to waste the TMCC electronics. I did this with a F unit because it was easy to fix the pilot and add Kadee couplers. 

I agree. A lot of great information in this thread. Thank you guys. I appreciate it.  

Andy,  yes you can. 

The overall design/egineering approach with MTH and Atlas dual-motor drives is similar. It's mainly the electronics that differ and we don't need them anyway.     Actually, on a serious note, if you remove the electronics carefully as a package you may be able to sell it.  

I've found one can remove all the electronics (and speaker if you're going Tang Band) and proceed the same as Atlas. You may need to install some more modern LED lighting if the loco is older and has lower-brightness LEDs that are too "blue-ish" or "yellow-ish" white lights.

I'm intrigued to see what your next loco will be... 

Pete

roll_the_dice posted:

If I were to find a 2 rail MTH engine with proto 2, could I gut the electronics out and just add my own DCC sound decoder?  Much like I am going to do with this Atlas GP35 with TMCC.

You got a good answer from Pete. I will only add that all PS 2 systems use incandescent headlights, and there is indeed a market for PS 2 electronics--They can go from $40.00 to $110.00 on eBay.  The 5 volt boards generally command the higher prices

Another thing you did not ask were PS 3 Boards.  I would recommend trying them out before selling.  The sounds are pretty good, the control is pretty good, the lights are all LEDs, and they are 100% compatible with DCS.  Some time ago I reviewed a set of PS 3 MTH F7s for OST (Jan-Feb 2013, Issue #66):

"DCC: (tested with Lenz Set 100 (5 amps) S/W version 3.6, track voltage 16 volts).  The reviewer is grateful to Terry Terrance for testing with a DCC system, and to lend his vast DCC experience.   The locomotive ran smoothly and all functions worked.  Out of the box the unit is set for 28 speed steps.  The engine ID can be easily reset while programming on the main.  It seems that all DCC functions are supported. Conversely, all functions available in DCS were accessible with DCC. The only variation is DCS allows separate control of the marker, interior and number board lights, whereas in DCC these can only be turned on and off as a group."

(Note OST as a matter of general policy allows quoting their articles six months after the issue comes out)

@Hudson J1e  Thanks Phil, I thought I had read a post you did to that affect!  Just wanted to make sure I was thinking clearly before I bought something.

@Pete M  I haven't found exactly what I am looking for, but the information is great to have if I found it so I can pull the trigger.  Even though I love Steam, I think I am going to do all diesel on this switching layout...I still have lots of my old HO engines and I have an ACL GP-38 that I love...I saw an MTH ACL GP-35 LN 2 Rail with proto 2, so it got my mind wondering...wouldn't kick an MTH Genset out of the loco shed either.  Something like this...(although that is the 3 rail picture) 

I might go mid 60's Diesel and if I do, I will take the ESU decoder out of the CSX Dash 8 and try and sell the engine.  It is just so long, but I like it a lot...the weathering and sounds.  If I do remove the sound decoder, i will buy the lokprogrammer and put it in another engine and reprogram it.  I might say I don't care about era right now and just have fun.

I do like the Tang Band speaker, so I will probably do that going forward as well.  

@John Sethian  Good to know about the lighting.  If I can sell the board that will definitely help offset a little of the cost of the engine or decoder.  I knew the PS3 engines were DCC compatible and if I got one of those, I would just make sure it is scale wheels.  That might be the best thing to find if I can find an engine I love that has it.  If the above engine was PS3, I would be buying it today.  I think it was smart of MTH to have DCS and DCC in a single engine.

I also had two MTH PS2 locomotives. One I sold and the other I installed PS3 and I sold the PS2 electronics to a friend. They were both steam locomotives. The one I kept was a CNJ Pacific. The installation was much easier than installing from scratch although I still had to go figure some stuff out. I turned the Polarity switch into the DCC/DCS switch. The one disadvantage in my opinion was unlike new PS3 steam locomotives with this approach you get the anaconda tether. Of course Andy, you wouldn’t have this problem with a diesel. Recently, I bought a PS2 Trainmaster with Scale Wheels. I could not resist the price—less than $200 with only 3 miles on her. I will probably upgrade that one to PS3 someday. 

I presume you are the one selling the Savannah & Atlanta unit on ebay.  Have you considered swapping the shell to the Southern gp35 that you have on the way?  It would require some effort to switch the pilots over.  But it may be simpler than trying to find a 2-rail S&A unit.  Actually, if the pilots are attached to the frame rather than the body shell, it may even be a matter of unscrewing the shell and replacing it.  Food for thought.

Jim

@big train  Yes, that is my 3 rail engine on ebay.  I thought about it briefly...But it is worth looking into further.  If the front/rear pilots are plug and play from one to the other, that is a great idea!  I also thought about just reLettering the Southern engine.  I have 2 sets of S&A decals...so hopefully one or the other will work.  Thanks for reminding me of that option!

@Hudson J1e  Phil, do you prefer putting a PS3 in the engine than a regular decoder?  Is it an easier swap?

Installing a dedicated DCC-only decoder vs. a PS3 board comes down to more of a question of system flexibility vs. (sound quality & potential speed control).  By that I mean, if want to have the ability to run across multiple layout control systems that PS3 covers, then it is a no-brainer to go with PS3.  However, if you know you are going be DCC-only, then a dedicated DCC sound decoder (like the ESU Loksound that you already installed in your other loco) is the way to go for better sound fidelity and the ability to tweak motor performance and sound options. 

Scott

Andy,
I don't have an Atlas gp35, so I can't speak with absolute certainty.  However, based on the parts diagram on the Atlas site, I'm going to surmise that a shell swap would be down to taking the handrail ends out of the cab sides, removing all necessary screws holding the shell on, and possibly detaching the light boards from the existing shell and reattaching them in the new shell.  I've deconstructed a couple of other Atlas units, and that seemed to be the arrangement in the past.

Of course, it may not be anywhere near as simple.  Hopefully somebody can chime in and verify things.

Jim

Jim: I think you're right. I've put LS decoders in three 2-rail GP35s, one high- and two low-hood. The chassis seemed the same and the body shell mounting screw location holes were the same as I recall.  Both had 2-rail pilots that mount on the diecast chassis ends with 2 screws and 2 locating nubs located the same.

I think if the 3-rail version has fixed pilots the the main difference would be a much larger opening in the pilot for the 3-rail coupler. But maybe the pilots could stay with their original chassis if they are similar enough and the handrail mounts are in the same locations?

Also the fuel tanks might be different and not sure the mounting holes for all tank types are in all chassis, but that's an easy drill-and-tap fix.

Scott: Agree 100%. Plus the LS decoders have that highly-customizable Function map which is great for add-ons such as ProtoThrottle.     

Pete

Pete,
I was presuming that nothing would be done with the pilots, rather it would be a wholesale swap.  Essentially everything from the walkway down would remain untouched, as well as the handrails.  And everything should be painted properly already, presuming no major distinctions between the Southern units and S&A units.  

Based on the Atlas parts diagrams, there doesn't' appear to be a difference between 2-rail and 3-rail fuel tanks.

I converted a 3-rail un-powered SD40 to 2-rail and most of the parts are the same (motors, plows, truck side frames and fuel tank). The WM SD40 that appears earlier in this thread was originally a 3-rail un-powered model.

I swapped the trucks, class light PCB's, pilots, plows and handrails from a 2-rail DC Union Pacific SD40. I painted the pilots, plows and handrails with Krylon satin black from a rattle can and used yellow decal tape for the safety stripes on the steps. The handrails required some work in order to paint mask the yellow (Testors gloss yellow) from the black but the pilots were easy since they are one color. Everything was hit with one layer of satin clearcoat. I'm really pleased with the finished product.

OK, so now I am more excited to get the engine tomorrow.  The 3 rail engine pilots are part of the trucks...but if it is like the CSX engine I have the front pilots on the 2 rail will unscrew like you guys said.  If that is the case, the only issue will be the hand rails, but I may be able to swap the 3 rail for the 2 rail.

Allow me to show you the future of what you have dived into;

1) You buy a 2 rail MTH locomotive

2) You fix the pilots, if needed.

3)  Then of course you may have to extend the handrails down the steps.  (The MTH 2 rail offerings are sometimes too short)

4)  Next thing you know you move the truck sides inward, as the factory ones stick out too far

5) After all that, it sits too high, so you have to lower it.

6)  The next thing you know you are super detailing everything

BUT..you will have an immense feeing of satisfaction and accomplishment for what you have done!

I really don't expect you to have to do anything with the pilots or handrails, because you aren't converting a 3-rail chassis to 2-rail.  Only swapping the shell.  Catnap was converting a 3-rail chassis to 2-rail, swapping 3-rail parts for 2-rail.  Your new 2-rail model should already have fixed pilots mounted to the frame, and should already have the full length handrails.  It won't have roller pickups, and will already have insulated wheel sets with appropriate pickups.  You should literally be taking the shells off of each loco and switching them, doing nothing to the chassis below, nor anything to the handrails other than disengaging them from the cab sides.  

I think it will be clear when you have both models in hand.

Jim

Just checked tracking and the engine is on the truck for delivery.  WOOHOO  So hopefully I will find out how "easy" it is soonish.

@John Sethian  That picture is stunning!  Thanks for posting...and I am having tons of fun on the 2 rail side!  I purchased some scalecoat paint and some weathering powders yesterday too...so I think the fun is about to begin in full force!

Slowly starting to build my freight car roster too.  I have 3 actual 2 rail cars and about to convert some MTH and Lionel scale cars over.  

OK, I got the engine about 30 minutes ago!  It looks great!  So I immediately took it apart to see about swapping shells and the TMCC board.  Looks like the shells will be an easy swap!  I do like the Southern road name and how it looks.  Hmmm decisions decisions...

Anyway, here are some shots I took of the guts.  I have another ESU board on order, but wanted to look at everything before I got it.  If you want more or different pics, let me know.  There are marker boards front and aft along with head & rear lights in the shell...To my untrained eye it looks like the motor wires are blue and yellow?  What else should I be looking at and for?  This engine also has 2 rail electro couplers?  

I am fine cutting wires now before I get the decoder...but don't want to cut the wrong ones.  Should I just unplug as much from the TMCC boards as possible and try not to cut much?

I would like the marker lights to work and swap out the headlights and reverse lights to LEDs...so suggestions please.  Thanks!  I love the GP-35!  I will get a picture of it soon...

I’ve converted 3 DC GP35’s to DCC so the internals are different but I would unplug as much as possible before snipping any wires.

Unless TMCC is different, all lighting is LED’s, including the headlight/back-up light so you will need resistors wired in series. I use 750 ohm resistors. ESU recommends anything between 400-2,000. Also, you will need to establish a trace between the negative posts of the class lights/marker lights to get them to work properly. I just solder a wire across the posts. Some locos require a trace between the positive posts. I think the SD40’s are like this.

It’s up to you if you want the motors wired in parallel (factory setting) or series. I believe this was already discussed so I won’t go into further detail. The speaker can be used with an ESU decoder but if you want to replace that with an aftermarket speaker that’s fine. I think 8 ohms is recommended. I use a factory speaker or equivalent (ESU Visaton) and utilize the 2nd speaker output on the decoder with a 1” high bass enclosed speaker for optimum sound.

I would guess that you can unplug the clunky electrocouplers from the motherboard and replace them with either Atlas factory couplers or Kadees. Atlas would probably be the easiest since the pilots are pre-drilled to accept the Atlas coupler pocket but others prefer Kadees. I’m fine with either. Normally, I mount Kadees to my MTH locos.

That's great Andy!

Good advice from Catnap! I agree with unplugging all that you can before cutting any wires.

Order of play could be something like this:

1. Remove the big "H"-shaped plate on top.
2. Cut and remove all the cable ties being very careful not to snip any wires in all the excitment! Yep, I got the T shirt on that one...
3. If you do need to cut any wires to remove the central circuit boards, cut them at the board end so you have plenty left for connecting everything to the decoder adapter board later.
4. Leave any small circuit boards for the marker lights and other lighting in place for now, and cut any wires to them at the main board end.
5. Carefully remove the main boards and the smoke generator (if present and you don't require it)   
6. I would leave any black plastic mounting posts that are screwed to the chassis from underneath for now, as they may be useful for mounting new supports you make out of styrene or brass.   

With all that done, post pics of the space inside the loco including the fuel tank and we can help you out with "what goes where", wire routing, resistors, replacement LEDs if needed, speaker location etc. 

Pete

roll_the_dice posted:

@Hudson J1e  Phil, do you prefer putting a PS3 in the engine than a regular decoder?  Is it an easier swap?

The main reason that I upgraded to PS3 was I ha a buyer for the PS2 electronics, it is definitely a lot easier to from PS2 to PS3 than to start from scratch and I know this might sound silly but I wanted to keep the locomotive original. I agree with what is written above that the Loksound will give you better sounds. That's not to say that MTH sounds are bad just saying I think the Loksound is a little better.

Thanks Rob and Pete!  I will start pulling plugs this weekend and cut wires close to the board if necessary.  I will get the fuel tank measured also for a new Tang Band speaker.  I may move the one in the CSX over and buy the larger one for the CSX since I have the room in the tank.

When I do this, I am pretty sure I want to connect the motors in series for better slow control.  It will be better for the switching layout I am going to do and I don't ever run real fast anymore...much like I don't drive that fast anymore. LOL

Once I get the TMCC board out I will take more pictures.  

OK, now I have not done a ton of soldering in my life and I don't have a good soldering iron.  I am going to buy a new one that is temperature controlled.  Any, I am looking at Hakko Digital FX888D and SEALODY SSA51, but I know nothing about what I need.  I will be using it mainly for trains.  Recommendations?

Here is a picture of the engine...

I use a Weller WD 1002 95W/120 V Digital Soldering Station.  Once I  got it ( several years ago) I never looked back.  Soldering everything from circuit boards to larger brass details is easy and precise

roll_the_dice posted:

OK, now I have not done a ton of soldering in my life and I don't have a good soldering iron.  I am going to buy a new one that is temperature controlled.  Any, I am looking at Hakko Digital FX888D and SEALODY SSA51, but I know nothing about what I need.  I will be using it mainly for trains.  Recommendations?

Here is a picture of the engine...

 

I would go with the Hakko or a Weller.  Get an extra soldering tip or two. 

Hakko hands down.  Nothing in the price range compares. It's truly a professional machine.

+1 for Hakko!  Get a couple of the finest/narrowest spare tips as well. Also some rosin not acid flux.

Thanks guys...  The weller looks great, but more than I wanted to spend for how much I will use it.  I think I am going with the Hakko...good idea on extra tips also.

Andy,

    I will be making the transition to 2-rail also, so this is a great thread for me to learn about the different options and do's and don'ts.  I'm in the early stages of planning the new layout and ordering different things to prototype and try like Alas bridges, 2-rail track, 2-rail turnouts and eventually a DCS controller.  

My plan is to use mostly MTH DCS since I have many MTH DCS 2-rail (fixed pilot) diesel engines.  My newer MTH engines have PS3 so I can try running them with DCC.  I also just ordered my first MTH 2-rail steam engines, the N&W 611 and big boy.   I plan on wiring everything so I can easily switch between DCS and DCC and possibly run both at the same time on different isolated loops.  Having both will let me figure out which is best, but hoping both will work well.  As convenient as it is for me to use MTH DCS, it does have problems and can be very frustrating at times.  I'll admit I did not do a great job wiring my layout.  I don't have enough isolated sections, but I will do a much better job the second time around.  When everything works well and it has, I find MTH DCS to be a very good control system.

I also ordered my first 3rdRail 2-rail engines, two Chessie SD40-2 engines.  Not sure if they will make it to production, but they will need a DCC controller and I will likely go with the 10amp NCE controller.   I don't know much about this yet, but I have time to figure it out and decide.

Since I have many Lionel and MTH 3-rail steam engines, I decided to add one loop on the upper level to run my 3 rail engines.  I may try to design it so I can replace it with 2-rail in the future.  I wish Lionel made 2-rail.

I've been very excited about model railroading again since I decided to "let go" of my 3-rail layout and build a new 2-rail/3-rail layout.  Like John Sethian said, some of us can't get past that center rail, I'm one of them.  I think its a good choice to move to 2-rail, and long overdue for me.  I plan on taking this layout to the next level of realism in spite of having a 3-rail loop.  The loop will be on top to make it less obvious and I can alway put a train on it when photographing or videoing.  The screenshot below are a preliminary design and could change dramatically by the time I start building probably next year.

The layout program is SCARM with the Train simulator add on.  Its really cool and well done.  The trains run around the layout and make it very easy to see what the real layout will look like.

@Rich Battista  Welcome to the thread!  Glad you are making the switch to 2 rail.  I just couldn't get over the middle rail too.  I think the other thing I couldn't get over the non fixed pilots.  Makes sense using DCS especially to start if you already have fixed pilots scale wheel engines.  I was fortunate in the fact  I wasn't heavily vested in 3 rail...so it was easy to sell the 4-5 engines I have (2 left) and get 2 rail engines and convert the few 3 rail freight cars over and start buying 2 rail cars.  I think I bought 6 freight cars yesterday...(staying at home, I will help the economy) and my first brass freight car a KTM hopper.

Since I am going to start my layout this summer, I haven't gotten into the NCE system in depth yet, but so far I like it on the 12 feet of straight track I have on my carpet....runs great forward and reverse. HAHA   I wish I could start my layout now since we are working from home, but I am finishing up restoring a 1965 Chevy C10 and the garage is full of truck parts where I am going to put the layout.

I looked at NCE and ESU DCC control, but ended up getting the NCE even though it is a little more expensive.  It is made in America and the owner Jim frequents this board and has O scale.  I like that!

Looking forward to seeing more of your proposed layout...or are you going to just turn your current layout into 2 rail?  What turnouts are you going to use?  I am pretty sure I am going to use signature switch co...again made in America.  Brad does have an 6-8 week backlog, but I am in no hurry.  I need to order a few to get started.

Andy,

  I will not be just turning my layout into 2-rail since the curves are not minumum 54" radius.  I will probably keep some of the bench work and reuse some plywood and relocate some of the rock walls if possible.  I also plan on removing the urban section and making it a stand alone section I could sell.

I plan on using mostly Atlas O 7.5 turnouts.  I've bought several and tested them with those Santa Fe F-7s. They run smoothly through the switch.  I've been able to find these turnouts and a box of 2-rail track but not sure if I can't find enough.

My bigger problem is finding the Atlas 2-rail 20" girder bridge which I can't find anywhere.  I have one three rail version and the conversion looks difficult.  Does any know where I can get them?  Is Atlas making more?  

Rich

Rich

Is this the bridge you are looking for on ebay?

Love your F7 war bonnets.  Those are MTH scale wheeled PS3?  The 2 rail track looks so much better doesn't it?

I've looked on ebay and many other places, but no luck. 

Yes, those SF F7s are scale wheel PS3.  Here is a post I did on them -> CLICK HERE

OK, so I started gutting the GP-35.  Below are pictures after I took the TMCC boards out.  I assume, I can cut wires, but will want long lead for the lighting and motors...any others can come out?  The only wires I cut so far are the speaker wires and I did that near the plug.

Oh I forgot...there are also 2 switches on the chassis in the fuel tank area...one says TMCC and the other Conv DC.  I assume I can remove those also, since I won't be using them for DCC.  Thanks!

Rich Battista posted:

Andy,

  I will not be just turning my layout into 2-rail since the curves are not minumum 54" radius.  I will probably keep some of the bench work and reuse some plywood and relocate some of the rock walls if possible.  I also plan on removing the urban section and making it a stand alone section I could sell.

I plan on using mostly Atlas O 7.5 turnouts.  I've bought several and tested them with those Santa Fe F-7s. They run smoothly through the switch.  I've been able to find these turnouts and a box of 2-rail track but not sure if I can't find enough.

My bigger problem is finding the Atlas 2-rail 20" girder bridge which I can't find anywhere.  I have one three rail version and the conversion looks difficult.  Does any know where I can get them?  Is Atlas making more?  

Rich

Rich

Beth at Public Delivery Track has a 2 rail double track truss bridge in stock  www.publicdeliverytrack.com

OH, I forgot to ask...if I run the motors in series...can I use the ESU HO decoder? (money saver)

So I saw this post (running in series)  All I need are the yellow, blue, red, and black wires for the motors?  Then the lighting will be hooked to the board separately.  I do see resistors in the shell of the engine near both front and rear lights...

Man that's a lot of wire Andy!   It'll clean up nice though. 

Re the series vs parallell motor wiring qestion:  Series wiring will allow smoother starting and slow running as well as drawing less current. But it will limit the traction vs. parallell because if one truck gets into wheel slip before the other, its motor will take all the power and the other motor will stop. 

Here are my comments based on no science whatsoever, and purely on my own experience:  I have run several Atlas dual motor drive locos with LS Select HO decoders (and now one with LS5DCC HO, the new equivalent) with no issues. However there are some caveats:

• I only need each loco to pull max 15 x 1lb cars. 
• There are no grades on my layout (but I do have some 36" radius curves).
• Loco top speed is set to 15 scale mph
• Locos are weighted so that they always get to wheel spin before stalling
• I mount the decoders to the diecast chassis with 3M heat transfer tape and leave lots of air space around them
• All loco lights are LEDs
• I only run the sound at about 50% volume into 4 or 8 Ohm speakers.     

I hope this is helpful.

Pete

Pete...it was a rats nest in there.  I have it gutted,  The only wires I kept are the motor wires, pickup wires, ground wires and the marker light wires.  I also have the front and rear light wires in the shell.   Ialso removed all the switches that were under it.  Here is a picture of the frame.

I am ready for the decoder to be delivered.  I think I won't run the motors in series, but connect them normally.  So I will need some help with what goes where when the time comes.  I would like to control the marker lights if possible and whatever else I can do.  Thanks!

That's better Andy - look at all that space! 

So for parallel wired motors you'll need the Loksound 5DCC "L".  We can help you with which wire gets soldered where on the "L" adapter board. It'll be something like this:

Power

• Right rail DCC power pickup
• Left rail DCC power pickup
• Motor(s) +ve
• Motor(s) -ve

Lighting and sound

• Front headlight -ve with added 2.2k resistor (1k may be OK depeding on the age of the LEDs, newer ones are brighter) 
• Rear headlight -ve with added 2.2k resistor
• Aux 1 - Front marker lights -ve with added 2.2k resistor
• Aux 2 - Rear marker lights -ve with added 2.2k resistor
• All lights +ve side connect to U+
• Speaker +ve
• Speaker -ve

Will a Tang Band 1931 speaker fit in the shell or the fuel tank?

You can download the LS5 decoder manual from the ESU website and look at the diagram on page 26 for the "L" board connections.