new house new layout build - slow slow progress

Congrats on the house and great layout space.

There are reach issues in the corners of your plan, and I'm assuming you're planning an opening or lift-out in the area to the left of the coal mine.

Keep in mind that some longer locos won't run on the 54" radius switches.

Don't forget to paint the ceiling and update the lighting.

Nate,

I agree completely with what Mallard said. I'm a huge fan of an open, flat black ceiling mated with LED track lighting. Search this Forum for several threads on the subjects.

I note you want to get rid of the asbestos flooring. Be careful how you do it! Depending on its condition etc., it may be more prudent to leave it in place and cover it. I'm not the expert on this type of flooring, but I do know it's  huge can of worms and needs to be addressed properly.

Also, since you have decided to go with a more realistic look, think about your back drop. It is much easier to paint or install one before you build the layout!

That all said, have at it!

Chris

LVHR

I've not heard of asbestos 'flooring'... but, I have dealt with asbestos roofing tiles.  They need to be removed without breaking (asbestos is a friable material and fibers will be sent aloft into the air when breakage occurs) and bagged immediately... also, you have to consider where they are to be disposed of beforehand.  Encapsulating it with a self leveling thin set or concrete @ 3,500 or better psi would probably be better, safer and cheaper.  It would offer moisture resistance... then tile, paint or carpet over it.   The thin set you could probably do yourself... it's self-leveling.  Nice Layout BTW!

Old floor tiles can contain quite a bit of asbestos. Try not to tear them as you pry them up, but you will also have to contend with whatever adhesive was used to put them down. Very possible that adhesive also contains asbestos.

Just me, but the plan has an awful lot of switches.

I like the plan but it could use some tweeks here and there.  You didn't mention what track and switches you plan to use, but there aren't too many who make 054-072 curved switches. You might also consider using numbered switches to transition between the mains and even on sidings. The numbered switches avoid the "S" curve created by facing two 072's for example.

If a train is running counter-clockwise there is a reverse loop available, but I don't see how a train running clockwise would be able to reverse direction.

I can't speak to the number of switches on your layout, I'm approaching 30 switches myself.

Nice plan Nate. Loop running and operations.

I'm sure it's going to change a hundred times before you build it. Sounds like you already have a plan in mind for the space. Just make sure you leave adequate access to service boilers, furnaces, water heaters, etc. The electric service panel requires 3' clear access in front. I prefer having a ceiling above, not exposed beams, but it's your house so.....

A few comments on Asbestos floor tile (ACT).

Yes- it contains asbestos, but the manufacturing process bonded the fibers and it is not readily friable when broken. It can be removed carefully and disposed of. In New York State- any amount over 100 sq ft is considered a large removal and must be done under containment with proper filtration and air monitoring (at least in a commercial setting). Also, the adhesive can contain asbestos and may need to be chemically removed.

The alternative is if it is solidly stuck to the floor, you can encapsulate it with a proper floor prep product. Even if you have a few loose pieces, you can remove them and patch over the spot. I've gone over a few small areas in my basement and used Henry skim coat to level the floor. New tile or carpet can go over it and you have a brand new floor. I put down peel and stick tile and it is solid.

Good luck- Bob

What Dan said... and, here is another.  Use the largest turnouts you can.  My poor little layout has curves of O45, O54 and O72.  I used all #5 and O72 turnouts with curve easements (my O45 & O54 curves start and end with O72 curves) to facilitate smooth transitions between lines and curves as much as possible.   For me... they look & function a whole lot better.  Dan, I'm not far behind @ 25 turnouts...

Ditto on Bob's comments!  He's definitely more up-to-date than me on the asbestos and has experience (which I do not) with that type of flooring.

@Trainwreck nate posted:

I second what others have said, you should consider access to all parts of the layout now before you build!

I have a similar sized layout at 12 x 24 with a yard extension, and even though I added a large center opening and a pop-up on the other end, I still have places that are difficult to reach.  The white lines are the outlines of a power lift bridge for access to the center section.

The freight yard extension joins the main layout with a manual lift bridge, obviously it's fairly accessible as it's only 36" wide.

If I had it to do over, I'd think a little more about some of the access aspects.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

...

The fright yard extension joins the main layout with a manual lift bridge, obviously it's fairly accessible as it's only 36" wide....

Didn't know that you were planning a Halloween theme. 

@Mallard4468 posted:

Didn't know that you were planning a Halloween theme. 

Not sure of what the reference is for...  Are you talking about these tank cars?

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Not sure of what the reference is for...  Are you talking about these tank cars?

Cool tank car… MTH or Atlas? Do you have it in stock?

@gunrunnerjohn, you mentioned a "fright" yard.

@Madockawando posted:

Cool tank car… MTH or Atlas? Do you have it in stock?

It was a special MTH run for the Arkema Chemical Company, they were never generally for sale.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

It was a special MTH run for the Arkema Chemical Company, they were never generally for sale.

oh well. I didn't realize that Arkema was a real company... Arkema sounds like a company name from the HP Lovecraft mythos.

@Madockawando posted:

oh well. I didn't realize that Arkema was a real company... Arkema sounds like a company name from the HP Lovecraft mythos.

They're actually a pretty large company: Arkema Chemical Company, in 2020 their gross revenue was nine billion dollars.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

They're actually a pretty large company: Arkema Chemical Company, in 2020 their gross revenue was nine billion dollars.

Very interesting. I don't interact with chemical companies in my line of work. There must have been a train fan in the company leadership for them to request this special order. It reminds me of the Zep Cleaning Company tank car and box car that Lionel did for Zep back in the mid 1990's.  Any other items in the Arkema series like a boxcar or flatcar?

@wb47 posted:

Just me, but the plan has an awful lot of switches.

Looks good for an operating layout; several areas for industries.  It is missing a dedicated yard lead, but the inside station track can be used for that.  The two inside station tracks can also be used as a yard run around track if no passenger trains are parked there.  Not ideal, but usable for one-two operators.

The curved switches I used were very sensitive to any change in elevation for the 3 leads. Take care leveling the table.

OK to many people to reply to, so it going to be one big post.

We now for sure that the floor is. This was my great grand parents house. Some tiles are already popped up and missing. Between my grand father, father and my self we think its the smart move. If we ever go to sell it later we dont need to worry about it then. We will we be sealing the floor after its all removed. Then followed with some carpet squares.

For the ceiling, its not at a standard height. Track lighting my be a little issue. For right now the plan is to go with recessed lighting. I havent really looked into any low profile track lighting.

Backdrops- Once the bench work is in the back drop will be put in place. That way i can match the elevation.

Access points- until the track plan is 100% i wont know.

054 curves- the only spots will be any of the curved switches. So most large engines wont be using them at all.

track plan- currently making some adjustments.

Carpet squares is a great idea! Definitely stay away from the interlocking rubber type. They are cheaper, but they also tend to be excellent generators of static electricity, which is bad news for electronics.

When I did the floor in my train room my employer was renovating offices. I talked with the contractor and was able to get all I needed and more to redo my room free of charge. The squares were in practically brand new condition, and I was able to keep them from going to a land fill. Win-win in my book! Ask around. You may get lucky!

Chris

LVHR

Wise move on the floor Nate. If you have it in the budget then its gone and never to deal with it again.

Carpet tile is great stuff. We use it in the buildings at the College I work for. If it can withstand college kids.........

Definitely research the track lights. With the advent of LED's they make some really small fixtures now.

Bob

@Trainwreck nate posted:

For the ceiling, its not at a standard height. Track lighting my be a little issue. For right now the plan is to go with recessed lighting. I havent really looked into any low profile track lighting.

Since I bought the house with a finished basement, I already had the lighting that I would be stuck with without a lot of work and expense.  So, I concentrated on making the existing lighting as good as I could.

Consider these wide angle and really bright PAR38 bulbs.  Sunco 2800LM 90º Wide Beam bulbs for the recessed lighting.  I was unhappy with the lighting with the stock bulbs over my layout until I got these.  BOY, talk about light!  I can also dim them way down for any mood, and they're as bright as I'd ever want lighting over the layout.  For only six bulbs over the main layout benchwork, they're more than sufficient, and the wide angle really spreads the light.  This is the 3rd bulb type I tried, these did the trick.

Still working on fine tuning the track plan. While talking with the wife about running some old conventional engines. She asked wouldn't it look weird running semi scale in a full scale and weathered layout. So going to cross a childhood dream off the list. We will be adding two loops that will be along the ceiling. Nothing to crazy just a large loop. I already have the proto type brackets ready. Just need to figure out how many I need to make now. I'm guessing for the brackets I will be spacing them out about 3 feet apart. Thinking of using 1/2 or 3/4 finished plywood and staining it.

I also highly recommend the carpet squares. I used 2'x2' tiles and they came out great. The seams almost completely disappear. This is the place I ordered mine from.

https://www.georgiacarpet.com/...ercial-carpet-tiles/

Nate, it looks like a good overall plan.  You are on top of the suggestions others made concerning the plan and the room.  We had to sell the house I, my dad, and my grandfather grew up in.  It had asbestos tiles in the kitchen.  The kitchen was vintage 1920s still when we sold it 2 years ago; except for the tiles, refrigerator, and stove.  The house itself dated to the 1880s.  We hated to see it go.  Here in Butler County, Pennsylvania, we didn't have to remove the tiles since they were intact.  However, Bob is on top of the process in NY (He's always on top of any regulations), which is usually one of the most stringent states on everything, so it seems.  It's good to get the room ready before building.  I should have put carpet tiles down on my cement floor before building my layout.  I'm looking forward to seeing this layout being built!

@Mark Boyce posted:

However, Bob is on top of the process in NY (He's always on top of any regulations), which is usually one of the most stringent states on everything, so it seems.

In California you'd have to demolish the house, bag all the debris, and take it to a hazardous chemical dump site.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

In California you'd have to demolish the house, bag all the debris, and take it to a hazardous chemical dump site.

Yes John, I don't doubt California is the most strict by far.  I wouldn't be surprised if they uber-hazardous sites to put all the hazardous chemical dumps sites in. 

Was hoping to finish the furnace and the start the floor this weekend. Our track department doesn’t have any one how know how to weld. So I’m going in tomorrow to weld up some damages  switch points. So not to sure how much will get done this weekend.

Luckily my grand father and father both own a construction company. So we have dealt with this stuff before. Hoping to have Everything ready for framing next month.

Ok not the best layout print. Thinking this will be as close as i get until i can really see it.

Green is for customer sidings

blue yard or service areas

red main line

yellow - track drops 3 inchs, the other track will go up 3 inchs.

Still not to sure where i will put the icing platform. Added in a full track lead and enought room to build a train. I know it wont really fit to well but I always wanted to model a barge. Will make a small fun switching area while sitting at the bar area. Yes you heard that right. With moving the turntable im able to go with my original. Up against the edge of the table will  be my bar edge table looking into the train room. This will also work well with the height the track will be built at. Running the height higher then normal will help  with the lift bridge look more to scale.

Well been toying around with another layout idea. I lose out on a couple of industries compared to the other layout. Will have more  elevation changes, mountains and tunnels. My max grade is 1.7%, all yellow track is a elevation change. No change is more then 3 inches total at once. That way I was able to cut down on the distance needed. This also helps with my plan to model PRR/ New England. Another thing I do gain from this is I added a small inter change on my branch line. This way I get some more operations when running. Mainly being coal mine will be located too left of the main line. Power plant is bottom left on the branch line. With mainly running PRR, B&A and B&M I think this will work well.
Tracks are as follows.

Red - main line                                                      
Blue - yard/ service                                              
Gray - branch line/ inter change                        
Green - 3inch elevation track                              
Yellow - elevation change

Things are starting to happen. Will be removing the old furnace this weekend and then removing the floor. But first all the trains need to be moved. Started boxing up all the rolling stock tonight. All the engines and rolling stock I’m storing on the 2nd floor. Sucks moving it all but rather keep it safe.

Yes Nate!  Better to box them up for safe keeping!

Well busy weekend got a bunch done. We were finally able to get the old furnace out. That was fun, took 3 of us a quad plus a come along. After that pulled up the old floor and skim coated the floor. Next will be removing the bad spots on the walls. Followed by framing one wall for the baseboard heat. Once I get the inspection completed the real fun starts.

Arctic Cat getting the job done! Looking forward to following you progress.

Surprised the furnace didn't draw the atv towards the house.  I got my ztr stuck and tried to use my atv to pull it out.  It started pulling me and the atv towards.  So I used my tractor instead.

I second on the carpet tiles.  I put them in my garage.  Easiest job ever and they came out great.  No adhesive required.   Other than sweeping no floor prep needed.  They are sticky-baked and don't move.

@Frank Mulligan posted:

Surprised the furnace didn't draw the atv towards the house.  I got my ztr stuck and tried to use my atv to pull it out.  It started pulling me and the atv towards.  So I used my tractor instead.

I second on the carpet tiles.  I put them in my garage.  Easiest job ever and they came out great.  No adhesive required.   Other than sweeping no floor prep needed.  They are sticky-baked and don't move.

We had the atv up against the house so it wouldn’t get pulled in.

@Trainwreck nate posted:

Well busy weekend got a bunch done. We were finally able to get the old furnace out. That was fun, took 3 of us a quad plus a come along. After that pulled up the old floor and skim coated the floor. Next will be removing the bad spots on the walls. Followed by framing one wall for the baseboard heat. Once I get the inspection completed the real fun starts.

WOW! That thing was a beast. We pulled an old (100+ years), steam boiler out of rental house recently. The demo crew broke it up in the basement but it didn't go down without a fight....

My childhood house had a side door right to the basement. Made it easy to get stuff up and down the stairs.

I bet your glad that job is in the rearview.

Bob

That furnace looks as bad as one we removed from a house we bought back in '87.  It was a boiler, not as big as the original from my boyhood home.  Both were right next to doors to walk them right out.  Dad had to get the new boiler (then 43 years old) replaced the year before he and Mom moved to the personal care home.  The new one is a little unit that hangs on the wall and will replace your water heater as well.  Wow what a change in 60+ years.

On to the rest of the prep for the layout.  The floor is looking good.  I'm thinking of getting those carpet squares for my layout room too.  We had them at work, and they were great.

@Trainwreck nate posted:

Well been toying around with another layout idea. I lose out on a couple of industries compared to the other layout. Will have more  elevation changes, mountains and tunnels. My max grade is 1.7%, all yellow track is a elevation change. No change is more then 3 inches total at once. That way I was able to cut down on the distance needed. This also helps with my plan to model PRR/ New England. Another thing I do gain from this is I added a small inter change on my branch line. This way I get some more operations when running. Mainly being coal mine will be located too left of the main line. Power plant is bottom left on the branch line. With mainly running PRR, B&A and B&M I think this will work well.
Tracks are as follows.

Red - main line                                                      
Blue - yard/ service                                              
Gray - branch line/ inter change                        
Green - 3inch elevation track                              
Yellow - elevation change

Nate the Trainwreck.  This looks like an unfinished draft.  When completed you definitely want to have some dogbones.  Runing the trains round and round gets boring fast.  I liked your first track layout much better even though the open space was limited.  "It's a train Layout" said the track junkie.

Don't worry about the switches, my layout has forty-three.  Having a train run counterclockwise and then reversing can be remarkably interesting and it requires a lot of control from you, the engineer.

You're making progress quickly and I like the space you have to work in.

wish you luck with the reno. With removing asbestos unless it is a huge amount, you can do it yourself (this more as a general discussion). Asbestos fibers are a health hazard, but the people who have problems were exposed to it over many years, it isn't like you happen to breathe in some fibers and you get sick. If you are taking up asbestos tile,have a good quality 3m mask (the fibers are relatively big), and take them up. If you have asbestos adhesive, take it up and don't do what one idiot friend of mine did, don't use a belt sander to grind it down (the non asbestos portion is likely not good for you either....). In most places with a home job you can dispose of it bagged in normal garbage, asbestos fibers airborn are a problem, it isn't a toxic substance otherwise. Commercial contractors are often forced to bring in an asbestos firm, but homeowners don't have to for most typical things.

The house I lived in before my current one had a boiler that was a converted coal firer (it used oil), filled up a small room in the house. The new one was about the size of a 3 drawer desk cabinet (natural gas).

Only other piece of advice, don't be a dummy like me and don't put the wall studs on the wall, you learn how non straight basement walls are.

@Wood this may help a little bit better. Still learning the software but the 3D view shows it better. I'm happy with this one, and so is the wife. She wanted more hills, mountains and a good main street area.

black is bench work and gray is the access areas.

@Trainwreck nate

Nate The Trainwreck,

You have accomplished much more than I with the program.  It looks nice.  I was thinking about train operations and that's why I was encouraging you to find a way to reverse the direction of your consists. I cannot make a map for you to consider. I've never made a layout plan.  My work was all done in my head.  Over time I added more space and modified the layout.

I know the rendering shows the layout in green.  My wife told me to use green felt for the surface and that was one of the best decisions made.

You like it and your beautiful bride likes it.  So, just go for it.

@Wood if only I had a little bit more room. Pulling off the reversing loop and keeping it at 072 is tough. Nothing is set in stone yet, this is already my 4th plan I believe. Still trying to figure you a staging yard under the table.

In the drawing above you show Black lines are Benchwork.  I attached a file I marked up.  Is the area I put arrows in nonuseable?  will that be a walkin area?

@Wood yes the black will be the edge of the bench work. Give or take some spots once I get a feel for it. 23x11 is what I have to work with, so around the room makes the most sense. The tightest spot will be two feet wide, give or take once I get a feel for it. Trying to cut down on that area to get a little bit more of an opening.

@Trainwreck nate posted:

@Wood yes the black will be the edge of the bench work. Give or take some spots once I get a feel for it. 23x11 is what I have to work with, so around the room makes the most sense. The tightest spot will be two feet wide, give or take once I get a feel for it. Trying to cut down on that area to get a little bit more of an opening.

Got it Sarg.

I reviewed the posts and saw that.  You are 100% right. At O72 you don't have the space.  Sorry to burden you with my thoughts.

Semper fi

CPL U.S.M.C 1966- 1969

@Wood not a burden at all, isn’t this why we post.  To get opinion’s and new ideas or just different ways to do things. Besides all that we are brothers so no worries at all.

Well I might have solved my under table staging yard. Doing another look over of my track plan again. I noticed coming off my yard lead i had two switches going up. Both tracks leading to the same point, my mid level transition area (green). With switching the tracks elevation im able to gain my staging yard.

the purple track in the top right is the track being talked about.

@Trainwreck nate

Nate , you're turning into a track junkie.  Love it!  More operations. Looks good.

Looks great, Nate!  

Nate, it looks like you can't get directly from the staging yard to the mains.  You'd need to bring a train out of the pink yard, all the way into the blue yard, and then back out again to actually run it.

You might be ok with that constraint, but it might be worth extending one of the blue yard's tracks to continue under the mains across the opening and then join the yellow main somewhere.

@PSM one of the plans I did add in a second bridge. Which at one point there was two bridges on the cape cod canal. That plan had it issues. The original canal bridge was a bascule, which wouldn’t have worked. Due to the three foot opening on top of clearance once the bridge was up. With the height I’ll be building the bench work at helps the lift bridge. You may still need to duck a little but not sure yet.

My plan with it coming off of the yard lead isn’t ideal. The way I’m looking at it is as follows. Pull one to two yard tracks, pull to the top of the lead and cut off. Come down the turntable lead, back to the yard. (Might add in a extra switch to avoid using the turntable.) Make the hitch back on the train then pull back to the yard, clear the switch and shove down to the staging. That way I don’t get the engine trapped down there. Yes it’s work and time just to switch out a train. But I’m looking for more operations anyways.

If you've got a plan and like the way it works out, great!  If you did want to change it to get direct access from the mains, another option might be to flip the whole pink section and come off of the yellow main on the left side.

Well the floor is completely covered and ready to continue work. Sadly I haven’t had the time this week. The next thing on the list is a quick demo job on a shelf unit. Then onto the more “fun” wall issue spots. Was able to break down the old furnace some more and bring that to scrap. Scrap is really low sadly only got 58 for all it. Didn’t bring the copper or brass wasn’t enough so I’ll hold on to it. But that’s a extra 58 for York. Don’t think much will happen till after York at this point.

That’s a bummer scrap is so low!  Hopefully you will find something at York that will help you forget the price!  I had some scrap that I just gave to a guy to get rid of for me since I learned it was low.  Hopefully, the price will go up before it’s time to scrap my 19-year old Hyundai.  😄

We’ll work has been crazy and other house projects have been getting done. Sadly no new work to get the train room ready. Doesn’t mean I haven’t been working on stuff. So I picked up a airbrush finally. Practiced on two cars then tried my first engine.

The weathering look fantastic, particularly on the locomotive.

They look great, Nate!

Well pretty much no progress has been made on the basement. Other things needed more attention, doesn’t mean I got nothing train related done. Once again I have re done my track plan. Still need to tweak it a bit, once they redo my key code.
yellow will be the lead to the staging. Sadly still can’t get a good way to get a reversing loop.

Lately I have been working on weathering my engines and rolling stock.
I saved the best for last. I did post this on one of the weekend fun photos. The wife and I had our daughter two weeks ago now. One day while I was at work hilary did a little photo shoot.

Nate, congratulations on your new daughter!

Your weathering looks great!!  What are the dimensions of your layout space!

@Mark Boyce the room I have to work with it’s 11x 23. I’m limited by one doorway, that’s on the left hand side of the layout. Some of my early designs show the placement of said door. The entrance to the layout is still the same. Will be making a lift bridge.

Nate, your room sounds like mine.  Mine is only 11x11 and I have two lift up bridges.  They work well to get me into the middle.  Yes, I gave up on the idea of turn-back loops.  Still, there is lots you can do in a room only 11 feet wide! 👍🏻

Still no real progress on the basement. Material has been acquired due to my father on a construction auction. He got a cube of 2x4 for 1.75 each which is a huge help. Been toying around with another idea for a track plan. Finally fiugred out how to show the table edge which should help understanding it. This is the longest ive been with out changing anything major. Only thing ive changed was adding in the orange track on the top left. Lost another yard track but gained another lead with a place to build my trains.