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Tom was back today and we made some progress on a new phase, the fascia bottom layer!  Love the look of the inside curves in the center hole, when that's finished it will be dynamite!

I'm pretty sure the fascia won't fall off, we used half a tube of glue, and that's the large tube!

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If you question or efficiency, here's what's left of twelve 5x5 birch multi-ply sheets.  Looks like a couple of pirate swards in that pile, I'll have to work on a handle!

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That system is slick as snot.  An when finished will look superb.  I think I have the fascia/backer blocks oriented properly.  Given your materials, what’s the ballpark guess on depth of cantilever.  Do I see drying brush marks where you applied the water to bends, just brushed it on?  Did you tack the fascia also or does the glue hold on setup?  Last stupid question, would  standard 1”x4” ‘s(or plywood) in place of Mianne perform similarly?

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John- looks very nice. Puts a nice clean edge on the bench. I think you used more liquid nails then you have in your entire condo

Ted- the I beam style construction and use of plywood for stringers is structurally stronger that dimensional lumber. When I was still in the home building industry, laminated beams and wood I beams were just hitting the market. They were many times stronger than standard 2X10's, 12's etc. What gives plywood its strength is the orientation of the wood grain layer to layer. All that being said, for what we are are using the lumber for I think it is adequate. When I build my next layout I plan to use an open frame design with 1x4 stringers.

For those who don't want the mess- Mainne is the way to go by far.

Bob

Truthfully, if it had it to do over, I wouldn't use the Mianne.  While it works well, there are compromises that are made that I wouldn't have to make if I had simply built the benchwork.  That being said, I'm happy with the Mianne, and it's going to work out fine.  I was originally looking for the no mess solution, but as you can guess, that ship has sailed.  Now I'm just trying to keep the mess off the carpet for the grand cleanup after we're done at this point.   There was no mess with the Mianne, but then I added all the rest of the benchwork build!

Ted, no water on these curves so, on the really sharp bull nose we may have to use water to make the turn.  The cantilever on the large bump-out is about 22 inches, but there's very little "give" on that when you apply weight to it, I have no doubts it'll hold anything I could possibly put on it.  The base fascia is 3/8" bendable Lauan plywood, the top layer will be 1/8" birch plywood.

The fascia is tacked at a couple of places, but 90% is just the grab of the glue holding it.

As for substitutes for the Mianne, I can imagine that plywood beams of similar size to the Mianne would be more than sufficient.  If I were doing it with plywood, I'd use the multi-ply I used here for the deck, that stuff is a pleasure to work with.  The cost difference between multi-ply and regular plywood is minimal as it turns out, and the difference in quality is immense!

For framing, if multi ply is not available a 4' x 8' of 3/4" Birch shop grade plywood can be ripped into 13 pieces of 3 1/2"  by 8' pieces.  This will be far superior form of bench work construction material.  Dividing 13 into the cost of any sheet of quality 3/4" plywood yields a very affordable net material expense. 

I would never want to use solid dimensional lumber.

The fabricated beams used here have minor ridges or offset where the hardwood ends that tie the ends of each set of top and bottom solid wood cords and Masonite together.  If you just have a basic table it can be forgiving, one may never notice it.  However when a lift gate is involved the cumulative effect on this job is causing us to have difficulty in gaining proper alignment.  I imagine the situation is random.   

Last edited by Tom Tee

Hopefully, we're on the road to sorting out the lift gate issues.

Speaking about the lift gate, I have to say, the limit switch arrangement sucks!  While the upward travel limit isn't an issue as there's room for "slop" there, the downward travel is a PITA.  In addition, for reasons I can't fathom, the lift gate blew right through the limit switch bending the crap out of the lever on the leg!

I'm working on a solution that will replace the lower limit switch, and I'll likely replace the upper one as well.   The problem with the lower limit is there's a fine line between the lift gate setting in place aligned and the switch not triggering and just unwinding the cable.  Obviously, when it unwinds the cable, it jumps off the pulleys, what a PITA!

My solution will be simple.  I'll replace the lower limit switch with a microswitch that is attached to a idler pulley and a short spring.  As long as the cable is taunt, the microswitch will remain closed, as soon as I get a little slack, the switch will open and stop the downward travel.  This will always result in the table being seated as far as it's going to and eliminate the issue of the cable jumping the pulleys as there will be a spring tension on it at all times.  The only PITA about this solution is I have to run the one limit switch cable up to the top of the lift gate where I have a nice long expanse of cable that I can run my idler pulley on with the switch.  However, I think this will result in much more reliable operation of the lift gate.

I'm ordering microswitches and pulleys as we speak.

A lot of little things today.  The installed base layer of fascia got sanded down level with the table in preparation of the Homasote installation that will come to the edge.  Also, of course, installed more blocks for the remaining fascia to be installed, supports for the future bridge to a yard, and supports for a bump-out that was not sufficiently supported.  For those following along, all the base layer of fascia will get this treatment to be exactly level with the table, the Homasote covers this and is cut to the outside dimension to prepare for the top fascia layer.  I'm also finalizing my design for the replacement limit switch for the lift gate and ordering parts.

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gunrunnerjohn posted:

Tom was back today and we made some progress on a new phase, the fascia bottom layer!  Love the look of the inside curves in the center hole, when that's finished it will be dynamite!

I'm pretty sure the fascia won't fall off, we used half a tube of glue, and that's the large tube!

20190702_14053620190702_14054920190702_14132020190702_14185020190702_15165320190702_151705

If you question or efficiency, here's what's left of twelve 5x5 birch multi-ply sheets.  Looks like a couple of pirate swards in that pile, I'll have to work on a handle!

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John: How do you bend your facia wood? Do you soak it in something to make it more plyable?

 The base fascia is 3/8" bendable lauan (Philippine mahogany) plywood, the top layer will be 1/8" birch plywood.  So far, the lauan had bent with no water, I suspect the really tight corner will require some moisture, we'll see.  The 1/8" birch also bends very freely, so for the base layer that's already up, it'll just be glued on top of the first layer after the Homasote is on and trimmed.

Bryant Dunivan 111417 posted:

John,

When complete, you’re on my bucket list of must sees.  Great contribution to the hobby and industry of your talents.  Thank you.

I have to fess up, all the innovation on the layout is really Tom's talents.  I'm just following behind and trying to learn as much as possible from his woodworking skills.  Once I see it done, I can do some of the stuff.  Many of the insights that are shaping the layout aren't really mine.  My talents run a lot more to the electronics and mechanical side of things.  Without Tom's help, I wouldn't be getting something like we're turning out.

Last edited by gunrunnerjohn

John,

Sharing of talents and knowledge is the 600 pound Gorilla this hobby has over others, instead of jealousy or parochialism, most willingly give advice, help or information without hesitation.

If we all had the same talents, the world, let alone this hobby would be very boring.

John, Thanks for the kind words  but it has to be known that you are one of the fastest understudys  with whom I have ever worked.  Sometimes I feel I just have to get out of the way.  Many folks do not realize the many nuances that goes into a project such as this.   It might look good and simple but it does not fall together.  We should wrap up the wood working portion sometime later this year, or so it seems.

Well, to Tom and John- That is one beautiful execution of an idea. Not just the woodwork and construction, but foreseeing the final project at the end. That alone is pretty impressive in the grand scheme of things. I'll tell you honestly I could never do that, not just the building of the layout, but having the foresight of what the grand plan is. Now that's pretty impressive. When the wife and myself were looking at houses years ago, I turned down many a new house because all I saw was a concrete pad and a drawing of what it was "supposed" to look like when it was done. I just couldn't fathom it. So for you guys to know and the key word here isknow what you want at the end of this project is truly amazing in my eyes. Good Luck with it all.

Richie,

When one is building towards a finished product each step can be used to improve the foundation of the next.

When cutting French curves free hand there will be mild occasional wiggles.  Mounting the lauan with urethane allows the installer to tune-up the linear edge.  Then the thin fascia will have an improved/corrected flowing edge.

If I just mount the Homosote on a freehand cut spiral curve the subsequent routering for a smooth Homosote edge will only replicate run out of the plywood.  Not good.

Remember, this is just a basic home made way to trim an edge that anyone could do.  No special tools, no expensive equipment, just a common power tool assortment.  The purpose of showing these steps is not to demonstrate  perfection or to prove a point but rather to encourage others to step up and do something similar and even better.

Please do not think there is a thought that this is the best way or the only way.  It's just two old guys tripping over one another n' having fun.

Tools that help would be along the line of levels, drill motor, brad or staple gun, tube dispenser and polyurethane adhesive, saber saw w /fine metal tooth blade,  100 grit paper, etc etc.  Using quality plywood is a given!

We will attempt to answer questions of what we are doing and why we do it, but we make no claim of superiority.  More like one beggar telling another beggar where to find bread.

Last edited by Tom Tee

Tom and John,

Seeing the steps is always good for those contemplating a build.

I will go back through my pics as I built and post them in a new thread for those who feel a dimensional lumber build is what works for them. My benchwork is 1x3 select pine with sandable 13/16 plywood tops, covered with foam sheeting and edged with an engineered facia.

It is by no means as intricate as what you two are building, but might be a good contrast of skills needed for those afraid to use power tools and make a few mistakes as they go.

John / Tom,

Many thanks to you guys for posting your progress in this forum.  The work is beautiful and an inspiration to those if yes yet to build our dream layouts.  I've picked up alot if great ideas from this thread.  Looking forward to the rest if the build, and of course the trains!

 

GRJ,

That is going to be one awesome layout! Also the surrounding area looks really comfortable and inviting..a perfect atmosphere to build your masterpiece. I'm thinking the mess from construction is worth the finished product and it really looks like you're a "clean as you go" kinda guy so it never gets out of hand....

Like many others here who are just starting their own builds the tips and ideas in this thread are priceless! Thank you and Tom for sharing the process...

 

Another day, today was leveling day.  The layout is on carpet, and without some pads, it was sinking unevenly into the carpet.  Legs could also move around, time to solve those problems.  The Tom Tee patented fix, pads with teeth!  A do-nut of plywood, a depression for the leg adjuster, and a piece of office chair mat with teeth glued to the bottom.  These go under the legs and keep the leg from moving and also provide a much wider base for the leg.

Of course, then there's the Pergo floor, the teeth didn't seem to stick there.  So, a similar do-nut without the teeth and add a layer of carpet tape to keep the leg in place.

Legs are all level, top is all attached, time to move on to the last of the first layout of fascia and then the Homasote goes on.

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gunrunnerjohn posted:

A couple places up the street are for sale Jim, want me to refer you to an agent?

GRJ, thanks for the offer, but I am going to have to pass.  I am following in your footsteps.  I am just about 6 months behind you.

We bought a ranch townhome in late March.  Rented it back to the previous owner for the month of April.  We they moved out we cleaned it out and hired painters to paint all the rooms on the main level and the 1700 sgft finished basement.  Finally closed the sale of our previous house on June 20th.

We are all moved in and currently the kitchen if being remodeled,  new cabinets, sink, counter tops, dishwasher and lighting.

I am just a bit ahead of you with the layout build.  Bench work completed, all track ( 2 main lines and a 7-track pass thru yard) laid, wired, debugged and fully ballest. Signals being installed, scenery about 5% completed.  All structures are built and weathered.  Access lift gate needs some fine tuning.

BTW, layout is HO, 22’ x 11’ being professionally built as per the track plan that was first submitted in June of last year.  Final version of track plan submitted in November and construction started December 28 along with a 33% down payment.

Expected delivery late September / early October.

Long story short, moving again is out of the question.

 

 PS -  I have not posted anything about my layout because this forum is O Gauge.

 

 

Last edited by SantaFeJim

Hokie, The Forstner bit provides an even floor in a shallow hole enough to limit leg movement yet provides  access for adjustment.  A drill press of any size is helpful in providing a level floor.

The clear plastic floor mat with carpet nipples is available at Staples.  I use a hole saw for round coasters and their mat interface.   A chop saw can be used for square coasters and chair mats.

I actually tack the mats on the bottom.

Forstner drill

I use a 1 1/4" bit for Mianne adjusters.

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Hokie,  Not sure of what you are saying.  Your photo is of a Monoco swivel leveler with a 1 1/2"  nylon face.  That stem is a 3/8-16 thread with a top hex for adjusting when used with external mounting brackets.  A significant up grade from the feet that came with the bench work kit.  The Monoco face will swivel to conform to irregular surfaces so as to provide full contact.

Adjustment is much easier in recessed sub feet with the 9/16" nut immediately above the foot.  I discovered them when I was building Free-mo modules a long time ago.

That is a much more preferred adjustable foot.  Considerably more expensive.  I have been using them for 19 years.

If that is the leveler you are using you have made a wise choice.

I will try to post top and bottom photos of both styles.

Tom Tee posted:

Hokie,  Not sure of what you are saying.  Your photo is of a Monoco swivel leveler with a 1 1/2"  nylon face.  That stem is a 3/8-16 thread with a top hex for adjusting when used with external mounting brackets.  A significant up grade from the feet that came with the bench work kit.  The Monoco face will swivel to conform to irregular surfaces so as to provide full contact.

The one part of the leg levelers for the Mianne benchwork that I like is the threaded insert for the leg, it works much better than the one pictured above with the T-Nut.  T-Nuts work their way out of the leg far too easily.  Once you pound the the Mianne nuts in, they're not coming out without a fight.

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gunrunnerjohn posted:

I'm sure the scenery will take some time to complete, of course it'll probably never be "complete".

John, Model railroads are never completed. The NMRA has visited my so-called completed railroad off and on for over a decade. But, I still have a box of detail stuff i need to add when i get "around to it." And that box gets more cluttered every time i go to a train show. Plus the scenery always needs to be refreshed. Creating and building a model railroad can easily be half the fun.

John is absolutely correct.  I stock both kinds of "T" nuts.  IME,  The two different "T" nuts are for two different types of wood.

The Mianne legs are a harder better quality wood.  Hardwood is a much stronger unyielding material and is given to prefer the so called "Propeller" nuts which install with an interference fit as shown in John's photo. 

I use the Mianne selection of propeller nuts and fixed feet for display modules I used to travel with.  

For benchwork installation I usually used a Fir leg and use the nuts with the impaling nuts which are  for softer wood.   Soft wood does not provide a long lasting interference fit.

When using either style of nut , I also coat the interface with Locktite's urethane adhesive and leave it cure overnight to assure an secure installation.  They need to be chiseled out when removed.

The higher adjustable 9/16"  hex nut built into the lower portion Monoco leveler makes adjustment quick n' easy.

IMO, just consider the type of host wood used.

Edit:  I failed to mention one of the main reasons I switched to use the finned nut.  When I used to deliver layouts I was not always sure how much runout the floor may have.  So I would usually start off with long adjustable leveler stems.  If my predrilled hole was just a tad off it would jack a long "T" nut off it's base when the stem hit a wall being screwed deep into the leg.  So I usually drilled a slightly oversized hole which allowed for runout.  Propeller nuts MUST have only one perfect sized hole, a natural for shorter stems.

Last edited by Tom Tee
gunrunnerjohn posted:
Tom Tee posted:

Hokie,  Not sure of what you are saying.  Your photo is of a Monoco swivel leveler with a 1 1/2"  nylon face.  That stem is a 3/8-16 thread with a top hex for adjusting when used with external mounting brackets.  A significant up grade from the feet that came with the bench work kit.  The Monoco face will swivel to conform to irregular surfaces so as to provide full contact.

The one part of the leg levelers for the Mianne benchwork that I like is the threaded insert for the leg, it works much better than the one pictured above with the T-Nut.  T-Nuts work their way out of the leg far too easily.  Once you pound the the Mianne nuts in, they're not coming out without a fight.

John:

Can the type of nuts that Mianne uses be purchased anywhere. If so, what are they called?

Hi John,  That looks like a typical drywall Tee nut for hanging decent sized loads.  I use them for heavy pictures. 

Also used in inexpensive soft core boards typical of IKEA type construction.

The drywall version usually has a pointed nose so you can just jam it through the drywall, twist and set in place using a Phillips screw driver.

John, I had to put the blinders on when paying for the fastrack, switches and DCS, Legacy systems, I know my layout is somewhere in the $15k range but not knowing lets me look the spouse in the eye and say I have no clue.

There are 27 switches on the layout, and about 400 feet of track, 2 legacy Cab 2, 1 TIU, 4 AIU and one Wifi DCS.

Last edited by Ron_S
eddie g posted:

It looks like you are spending more money on tools than trains.

Not really.  I did have to pick up a compressor, mine crapped out.  I bought one just like Tom's, the Porter-Cable 6 Gal model.  I also did buy the DeWalt portable worksite saw, very nice piece.  

I think Tom has every woodworking tool on the planet, so I haven't needed much.

John, if I didn't have the yard ladders it would be in the 8 to 10 range for switches, I have 4 yard entrances and within each yard several steps to the ladders which added up a lot quicker than I thought, I also wanted to be able to switch main lines on any of the 4 sides which added more in plus the reversing elevated section.

gunrunnerjohn posted:
eddie g posted:

It looks like you are spending more money on tools than trains.

Not really.  I did have to pick up a compressor, mine crapped out.  I bought one just like Tom's, the Porter-Cable 6 Gal model.  I also did buy the DeWalt portable worksite saw, very nice piece.  

I think Tom has every woodworking tool on the planet, so I haven't needed much.

Porter-Cable makes great power tools.  I had a friend that worked for them and every year right before Father's Day they would offer employees tools at a very nice (around 40%) discount.  He would get me  whatever I needed.

Their stuff is really tuff.  I have since passed most of that to my son and he loves it!  He should... he got it FREE.  

 

As we are on the topic of tools, if you already don't have one, the Harbor Freight cut off saw is great for cutting track.  We use it at the club and I built several layouts with it.  The track fits into the built-in clamp, straight cuts every time.   You can usually pick it up for $30-35 with sale/coupon.

6 in. 5.5 Amp Cut-Off Saw 61204 alternate photo #1

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Bob, one of those is in my future.

Engineer-Joe posted:

Man, I'm losing my patience here. Are we running yet? Where's the trains? 

Let's go! Throw down a loop and run something already. 

Yes, I am not a patient person.

 Like fine wine, some fine layouts need ageing!

LOL!

Tell him John.... it has to breathe.. 🚂



 

Someone asked if the fascia would make the right corner, hope this answers the question.   In case the question of the apparent gap comes up, that's by design, we're interested in the proper curve around the radius, and all of that will be covered by the Homasote that will come to the outer edge of the table and be wrapped by the finish layer of the fascia.

All the main level fascia is up, and we're moving on to the Homasote.

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Cutting the Homasote is interesting, Tom has a great tool for the job.  While you can use a saw, it's pretty messy, so he uses this little gem.

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A few passes with the knife and we have a clean cut with minimal mess.

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Thank you Carl,

I find Bosch thin knife blades burn up rather quickly cutting Homosote at any reasonable speed.  The Homosote is rather dense, so within 5 feet or so  the blade starts to warp from the heat and curls to  one side giving a crazy edge.  If you grind a knife edge on a worn out saw blade it can last a bit longer because it is thicker and resists the heat better.

5 or 6 passes with a super thin Airway #6 knife blade makes production work quick and clean in my experience.  We even use it for hand cutting most plywood underlayments.

Cutting with a vacuum equipped 32 tooth metal blade has given me the best saw approach.   I used that combo for cutting around the round columns.  Both for the plywood and Homosote.

Last edited by Tom Tee

A minor milestone.  Worked on the Homasote today, all of it is cut and fitted.  Of course, the minor task of screwing it down and sealing all the seams is yet to come, but this step has been completed.  I even have a full sheet left over.

The fun is all the curves and edges, so all those had to be marked, then flip the sheet over and cut it.

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We had a low spot right at the liftgate, so that was leveled before the Homasote went on.

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Cut out the curves...

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And at the end of the day, a blank canvas!

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All Seams will first be sanded with a vacuum equipped oscillating 100 grit sander. 

All screw depressions and all seams will receive a skin coat of a Portland based feather finish.

The feather finish will be applied with a 12" straight edge steel trowel then sanded smooth.

That work is scheduled for next Wednesday.

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