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I thought all of that was due to the lawsuit? Plus no tooling to boot, so no Dreyfuss (also Class A and Pennsy T1), unless I got my timelines mixed up?

I don't want to get too off topic but yes you are correct. Lionel has not made a Dreyfuss Hudson, scale Class A, and scale T1 since all those molds were used as examples of illegal appropriation of trade secrets. That is why in the 2010s Lionel could make the lionmaster Class A and lionmaster T1 since the molds were made post-lawsuit.

In response to Skip and Thomas, if I remember correctly, the ESE Hudson molds and tooling were not used in the lawsuit so they could use them without fear of litigation. I suspect that Lionel wont make a new 20th Century limited since the cost of new molds outweighs the predicted profit or they might get handed another lawsuit if they use the older mold.

Bryce

I definitely would love a 20th Century Limited run from Lionel, that is if they can get everything that is not good right now, right. Until that time does arrive, I will hold buying certain items.

How about a little Ten Wheeler action? GRJ had told me that a few things need fixing on this in general. I think the resistor for the smoke unit was the main one, forget what the small list of others are, but they are minor. Smoke unit definitely needs fixing.

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I definitely would love a 20th Century Limited run from Lionel, that is if they can get everything that is not good right now, right. Until that time does arrive, I will hold buying certain items.



You would have a much better engine if you got an Odyssey Dreyfuss or MTH one and sent it to Bruk or Sid for a Legacy upgrade. The Lionel engine uses the Korean made frame, Pittman motor, and bulletproof gearbox as do the MTH engines.

Pete

@Norton posted:

You would have a much better engine if you got an Odyssey Dreyfuss or MTH one and sent it to Bruk or Sid for a Legacy upgrade. The Lionel engine uses the Korean made frame, Pittman motor, and bulletproof gearbox as do the MTH engines.

Pete

I have been hunting for one for some time. Have sort of put that on the shelf for a bit Pete. Every time I have seen one, it is gone on an instance. I know my LTS had one for a couple of weeks when I had gotten back into the hobby. I suppose that I could talk with him about finding one as he has some sort of magic with these sort of things. After that, the rest would be up to me. I can wait either way.

I definitely would love a 20th Century Limited run from Lionel, that is if they can get everything that is not good right now, right. Until that time does arrive, I will hold buying certain items.



I would also love a Legacy Dreyfuss!!! I have the TMCC Dreyfuss and the MTH Premier Dreyfuss. Only Legacy runs reliably on my layout. When I run MTH engines I do it conventionally. Perhaps an upgrade is in order!?!?!

@NYC Fan posted:

Question for the Hudson experts. The streamlined 5344 Commodore Vanderbilt made its inaugural run in February 1935. Why does it not have classification lights?

This is about the time the Central went to automatic train control, no class lights needed,....except big four locomotives kept there’s .......I believe ( and I really can’t be exacting ) grandad said the Hudson Division went first.

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

This is about the time the Central went to automatic train control, no class lights needed,....except big four locomotives kept there’s .......I believe ( and I really can’t be exacting ) grandad said the Hudson Division went first.

Pat

Oh...I thought it was right around 1937 that the rules did away with the requirement of class lights on the NYC mainlines.

@NYC Fan posted:

Oh...I thought it was right around 1937 that the rules did away with the requirement of class lights on the NYC mainlines.

My grandad told me all about it, I remember him telling us why one day when I was younger helping him long after his retirement when he was a volunteer on what became the Black River & Western # 60,.......pretty sure I remember him saying 34-35,....

Pat

@NYC Fan posted:

Oh...I thought it was right around 1937 that the rules did away with the requirement of class lights on the NYC mainlines.

It may have been a “rule” by 37, but maybe they were being removed as not needed sooner than it became standard practice, ......big four locomotives kept their class lights, and although the CV was a west ender, it very rarely roamed into big four territory,.....

Pat

@NYC Fan posted:

Hi Will,

My layout was in OGR Magazine in Dec 2016 and Dec 2019. Lots of photos especially the digital version. I plan to do an update article soon.

Skip,

I had a chance to read the two articles and wow! More spectacular than I ever imagined!

I also have lots of nostalgia for NYC Christmases, NY being my adopted city where I lived and worked for many years. I never saw the Lionel showroom, but I did noodle around in Madison Hardware.

But the city has become so crowded you can't move anymore, so I don't know when we will go in again. Last trip was not as much fun. You can't even move at Rockefeller Center.

Neither article had wide shots or a track plan though. I'd love to see those if they are floating around somewhere.

@NYC Fan posted:

Oh...I thought it was right around 1937 that the rules did away with the requirement of class lights on the NYC mainlines.

The "rules" did not do away with class lights at any time.   They were specified in the 1956 rule book, which was still in effect at the demise of the NYC.  By 1961, or earlier, there were special instructions in the timetables of most districts stating that the display of white signals should be omitted.  That was not true of green signals.  We didn't run many second sections of scheduled trains, but the rule was in effect.

@harmonyards posted:

My grandad told me all about it, I remember him telling us why one day when I was younger helping him long after his retirement when he was a volunteer on what became the Black River & Western # 60,.......pretty sure I remember him saying 34-35,....

Pat

Ah, BR&W #60. It is about 5 minutes from me resting in the shed.

Back to Dreyfuss talk though. I do remember that the buzz on Dreyfuss's was huge before the unveiling of the VL Niagara, that is among the community. I think a few people had sparked that conversation off and I do recall myself stating that if Lionel had produced several versions of the Dreyfuss, that I would buy at least 3(because of one of the old photos had 3 IIRC). I guess will just have to wait. Ugh.

@Will posted:

Skip,

I had a chance to read the two articles and wow! More spectacular than I ever imagined!

I also have lots of nostalgia for NYC Christmases, NY being my adopted city where I lived and worked for many years. I never saw the Lionel showroom, but I did noodle around in Madison Hardware.

But the city has become so crowded you can't move anymore, so I don't know when we will go in again. Last trip was not as much fun. You can't even move at Rockefeller Center.

Neither article had wide shots or a track plan though. I'd love to see those if they are floating around somewhere.

Thanks Will!

Our last family trip to the city was in December 2019 and we made the mistake of being there the weekend just before Christmas and waiting until dark to go to Rockefeller Center. I usually make a few trips to the area between Thanksgiving and Christmas but never that close to Christmas. During the day it wasn't bad but after dark it was wall to wall people. We got as close as 49th by the Today Show studio, took a quick photo of the tree from the side and aborted. Of course, 2020 was a wash out due to Covid and I was just talking to Roger Farkash and they're not sure if the train layouts will be back in Macy's and Grand Central in 2021. Social distancing is the big issue of concern. Hopefully the city will return to it's holiday splendor, especially 5th Ave, this coming season.

Here is about as wide a shot as I can get. Shot from the back corner. It takes in quite a bit of the layout.

*****Skip's NYC Skyline square SMALL

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@harmonyards posted:

My grandad told me all about it, I remember him telling us why one day when I was younger helping him long after his retirement when he was a volunteer on what became the Black River & Western # 60,.......pretty sure I remember him saying 34-35,....

Pat

You must be right. It makes sense. I just thought I read something that was specifically talking about the 1938 J3a's and why they didn't need the class lights and I thought it mentioned a date. I did a quick search but didn't find anything. I'll trust grandad and go with 1934!!!

How about some S2 Electric action? Don't know what it is about this little thing, but I liked it the moment my eyes caught it in the catalog.

IMG_20200115_163653

Totally agree. I grew up in the "Electrified Zone" often hanging out down by the river and watching Hudson Division trains pulled by electric locomotives and diesels. Wish I had been there when steam locomotives went all the way down the west side of Manhattan with freight.14876557_10211462131808516_8708326793525480475_o

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@NYC Fan posted:

You must be right. It makes sense. I just thought I read something that was specifically talking about the 1938 J3a's and why they didn't need the class lights and I thought it mentioned a date. I did a quick search but didn't find anything. I'll trust grandad and go with 1934!!!

Grandad was officially an employee of the Hudson Division, but I’m not saying what I mentioned is gospel,...I’ve reached out to some of my buddies in the NYCHS, we’ll see what they have to say,......according to Stauffer, all J1’s EXCEPT those assigned to big four territory, had their class lights removed,....and yes, the J3’s from what I can see, were delivered in 37-38 with out class lights,....starting around September of 37, ..( if my memory serves me correctly from what grandad said) .....he was there the day 5410 showed up at Harmon,....brand spanking new,...

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

Grandad was officially an employee of the Hudson Division, but I’m not saying what I mentioned is gospel,...I’ve reached out to some of my buddies in the NYCHS, we’ll see what they have to say,......according to Stauffer, all J1’s EXCEPT those assigned to big four territory, had their class lights removed,....and yes, the J3’s from what I can see, were delivered in 37-38 with out class lights,....starting around September of 37, ..( if my memory serves me correctly from what grandad said) .....he was there the day 5410 showed up at Harmon,....brand spanking new,...

Pat

Ah, that is just gold Pat. There isn't anything better than having something like that first hand. My maternal grandfather used to talk about coal a lot. That was because to him coal was tried and true. He never got an oil furnace. I remember asking him once in my teens about the BR&W leaving coal on the tracks. He said that wasn't uncommon to see at all. He said during the depression people would comb the tracks if they had to for coal. Only story I have from him, but my mother's cousin had an even better one. It was about the sale of land to the then railroad of the day from the old farm to the railroad. Wasn't a bill of sale, just change of title from owners to owners and the allotted land for the railroad. That is the land that the BR&W travels on for that stretch that abuts to what was my grandfather's property, now a park. Gotta love stories like that.

Ah, that is just gold Pat. There isn't anything better than having something like that first hand. My maternal grandfather used to talk about coal a lot. That was because to him coal was tried and true. He never got an oil furnace. I remember asking him once in my teens about the BR&W leaving coal on the tracks. He said that wasn't uncommon to see at all. He said during the depression people would comb the tracks if they had to for coal. Only story I have from him, but my mother's cousin had an even better one. It was about the sale of land to the then railroad of the day from the old farm to the railroad. Wasn't a bill of sale, just change of title from owners to owners and the allotted land for the railroad. That is the land that the BR&W travels on for that stretch that abuts to what was my grandfather's property, now a park. Gotta love stories like that.

Yep, during the depression the folks at the Central did the same thing, grandad often talked about driving his 23 Chevy up and down by the coaling towers at Harmon to fill his trunk with spilt coal,...I have a picture of him with his 23 Chevy after he left work to pick up my grandmother and the back end of the 23 was sagging to the ground,...😁....clearly he had just picked up a load,....

Pat

Wow! That looks spot on. I'd love to see the rest of the layout. As a native of NYC and always finding excuses for visiting, I find you've squeezed an amazing amount of NYC into a small space.

Thank you Joe. I grew up in The Bronx and Yonkers, going into Manhattan with my parents especially around the holidays with visits to the Grand Central Terminal, Lionel Showroom, Macy's, Radio City, Rockefeller Center, The Empire State Building, Times Square and much more.  I tried as best as I could to continue that tradition with my children. I started off selecting buildings relating to our holiday visits so the layout would be meaningful to all of us. It was a 17 year project. Unfortunately my parents never got to see it finished but my kids and I enjoy it.

@harmonyards posted:

Yep, during the depression the folks at the Central did the same thing, grandad often talked about driving his 23 Chevy up and down by the coaling towers at Harmon to fill his trunk with spilt coal,...I have a picture of him with his 23 Chevy after he left work to pick up my grandmother and the back end of the 23 was sagging to the ground,...😁....clearly he had just picked up a load,....

Pat

When I was in my early teens, grandpop wood go to the lumberyard where they also had coal. We'd load up his pickup truck and haul back to his place. Shovel buckets, and pop it into the basement in his coal hoppers by the furnace. Sure do miss those days.

I have been looking for this photo since this thread started.....and, I found it this morning (looking for something else, of course!).

I took this picture in mid-May of 1984. I was traveling from Baltimore to visit friends in Buffalo. I stopped in Rochester near the Amtrak station. I saw one of those short-lived Amtrak streamliners, that was in NYC/Buffalo service, pass by. However, my attention was drawn to a small freight yard where I took a series of pics (with a Monolta instamatic camera and 126 color film). This is my favorite picture of the lot.....

B41BD012-0572-4275-88A1-0376401FC002_1_201_a

I think that the paint looks pretty good, considering it was 17 years since the New York Central went out of existence.....and, it was also 8 years into Conrail......

As you can see by the small patch of sky, it was a dreary day with a minimal (if any) hint of spring. I remember it cold and a little damp. However, I was able to walk around the yard taking pictures of rolling stock for about a half hour.....

Peter

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Last edited by Putnam Division

I have been looking for this photo since this thread started.....and, I found it this morning (looking for something else, of course!).

I took this picture in mid-May of 1984. I was traveling from Baltimore to visit friends in Buffalo. I stopped in Rochester near the Amtrak station. I saw one of those short-lived Amtrak streamliners, that was in NYC/Buffalo service, pass by. However, my attention was drawn to a small freight yard where I took a series of pics (with a Monolta instamatic camera and 126 color film). This is my favorite picture of the lot.....

B41BD012-0572-4275-88A1-0376401FC002_1_201_a

I think that the paint looks pretty good, considering it was 17 years since the New York Central went out of existence.....and, it was also 8 years into Conrail......

As you can see by the small patch of sky, it was a dreary day with a minimal (if any) hint of spring. I remember it cold and a little damp. However, I was able to walk around the yard taking pictures of rolling stock for about a half hour.....

Peter

Yours looks to be in better shape than the one I found in Harmon right around the same time. It was a thrill to find it though, wasn't it?

NYC BOXCAR

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@NYC Fan posted:

Yours looks to be in better shape than the one I found in Harmon right around the same time. It was a thrill to find it though, wasn't it?

NYC BOXCAR

It was a great find.....I was quite excited to see it in such great shape....

To Skip and all, do not hesitate to download my picture for your own NYC picture collection. Please enjoy it. To repeat, it was taken in Rochester, NY in mid May, 1984.

Peter

Last edited by Putnam Division

Here is the New York Central Buffalo loop (Belt line) bridge over Delaware Ave. I am told, it has been repainted since 1967.....

FF30B24D-472D-4258-9B6C-98190D511C02

This is a former passenger station on the New York Central's Buffalo loop (Belt Line) that is now a private residence.

F3FA1C0E-154F-4374-8A45-22C95DCBFA47

For more info on the loop or Belt line:

https://buffaloah.com/h/belt/tc.html

Peter

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@NYC Fan posted:

29433146_10216601049878256_6866733437273767936_o copyDSC04940 copyIMG_2469IMG_3876

I didn't have room for a big Harmon facility, but I did the best I could in the space I had.

Here's another rendition of the Dreyfuss Hudson, 1946 edition.  It's probably the first  model of this engine to ever appear in hobby shops.  It was available from Lionel only in sets and only in 1946.  There was a 1947 edition, but it was black. L 221

I've included a photo of the train set.  Not exactly the Century, but if you can stretch your imagination from blue to two-tone gray ---.  The Commodore might have been a more appropriate engine actually for this train, given the open platform obs.  The Commodore must have pulled the best passenger trains, and it was gone before the NYC had a streamlined observation car./L 221 train

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Here's another rendition of the Dreyfuss Hudson, 1946 edition.  It's probably the first  model of this engine to ever appear in hobby shops.  It was available from Lionel only in sets and only in 1946.  There was a 1947 edition, but it was black. L 221

I've included a photo of the train set.  Not exactly the Century, but if you can stretch your imagination from blue to two-tone gray ---.  The Commodore might have been a more appropriate engine actually for this train, given the open platform obs.  The Commodore must have pulled the best passenger trains, and it was gone before the NYC had a streamlined observation car./L 221 train

That was the first Dreyfuss I had. I bought it sometime around 1979 at a long gone train store "World of Trains" in Woodhaven, Queens, NY.

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