Hi All - I am struggling to find or create (in AnyRail 6) an interesting around the walls plan.  My space is 12X10 with room for 3X4 peninsula and I would like to have O-42 or greater curves utilizing fastrack or Atlas. I do have a Lionel lift out bridge that I can use as well.  Any guidance would be greatly appreciated.  If there are any other details that would help let me know.  Thank you.   

Original Post

He is a harbor railroad layout that I drew a few years ago.  It is served by a derry and its customers are industries, power plants, merchants, etc.  It could handle almost any type of delivery.  Lots of street running.  It is 10' by 10' and uses Atlas track with a few Ross switches.  That is a Timesaver on the right.

Jan

Small 10x10 Timesaver v2

 

Attachments

Photos (1)

Can you possibly hinge your lift out bridge as the entrance to your round the room?

It is not what you are considering but my hinged drop section has worked well on two different layouts and may give you some thoughts on placing your bridge. The Drop Section shown  was recycled for my little round the wall 9x16 attic layout built in Jan-Feb '10 to the point of running trains but now unfinished and dormant due to health issues. Jim Barrett of OGR can show you how to hinge a bridge to swing up.IMG_1582-001IMG_1580IMG_1782Shown above is my very simplistic control panel for operating 17 remotely located track switches from the homemade panel. I use DC Tortoise Motors for each switch (about $13) which enables me to control them with simple on/off toggle switches. The direction the toggle handle is leaning tells me at a glance at the schematic which way the remote track switch is oriented---to the "thru"(mainline) or "out" (to a switch or spur). The off position of the toggle represents one position of the track switch points and the other one the on position. The DC motors are just positive and negative so to change any orientation of direction merely involves exchanging the + and (--) conductors feeding the motor.

Tortoise motors

100_1311

A&Y RY[NC's Southern/N&W connector].

Attachments

Photos (4)

The PER is around-the-walls of a 12'6"X11'6" room. Just a simple loop and a simple lift-out section across the doorway. There are two industrial areas and an interchange track connecting with a fiddle-yard through a hole into the next room. A total of seven track switches.

Starting with the Northeast corner:

           IMG_0210

The Interchange track switch is hidden under that mountain. The lift-out section is a piece of Pine 1X6. Now turning 180 deg:

       IMG_0212

The Southeast corner, the West End. Four industries including a real live PW Lionel 282 Gantry Crane. Another view:

                      IMG_0208

It can take 40 minutes to switch those industries. Now turning and looking West at the Southwest corner:

         IMG_0209

The Paint Factory and the Fuel Wholesaler. There are eight Spots (for cars) on those two sidings. Turning 90 deg and looking North:

          IMG_0211

The Northwest corner looking at the siding where the Dinner Train is spotted when not on a run.

An operating session typically lasts a little over an hour. Very simple track-plan but lots of fun to operate (mostly switching although I am also a Looper).

ON EDIT: Withe the exception of O36 inside the mountain all curves&switches are O72. Easy to do with an around-the-walls track-plan. 

Lew

 

Operator of the Plywood Empire Route in the Beautiful Berkshires

Growing old is so much more fun than the only alternative.

Attachments

Photos (6)

Thank you @geysergazer I like the operational potential with many car spots at multiple industries. I also like the wide radius curves so I could run the largest of equipment and just railfan the layout. Do you (or the forum) have ideas on maybe how to get a little elevation to the layout? I know I'm pushing my luck with such a small room but would love to figure out how to incorporate your ideas and then be able to get up to a second level with a coal/ore mine that I could run up, pull loaded hoppers and then run back down to a dock or power plant.         

Fireball, Here is a plan a Forum member and I have been working on.  It is to fit in an 11' 4" x 11' 6" room with a door in the lower right and a sliding glass door on the right wall.  It was drawn in SCARM using GarGraves track and Ross switches.  I think it is similar to what you just mentioned in your last post.  Please open the .pdf in the attachment box at the bottom for a better cropped view.

Back to the drawingboard 2020-01-19daz

Attachments

Thank you for sharing @Mark Boyce This is very interesting and has the same door placement as my room.  What size curves and switch radius does this represent? It looks like an elongated main line that passes over itself.  I saw Bob Bartizek do this in a much bigger room but was always intrigued by the long mainline.  I already have a Lionel lift out bridge but two would be even better   Industries could be placed in the canyon for switching and then maybe only use the top passing siding in "town in the valley", remove the bottom track and run two tracks across from that switch to create a dock for the hoppers.  What do you think?  

The outer loop is 054 and the inner is 042.  I run small steam and first generation diesel, 40' boxcars, 2-bay hoppers, and 60' passenger cars so 042 works for me.  The passing sidings use Ross #4 to save room so the siding isn't too far out into the scenery area.  The other switches are Ross 042.  The passing sidings are short, only an engine and about 4 cars and a caboose will fit, but they are level.  I think your idea is very workable.  In fact, this plan is still a work in progress for my particular needs anyway.

Well instead of changing the track height with grades, consider an open grid construction or L-Girder construction.    then you can lay the track especially the main on roadbed say 4 inches wide, but have the scenery vary above and below track level quite a bit to create idea of height differences.

I like your track for its implied operation.    I have a couple of changes I might consider.    First I would move the siding for the warehouse across from the yard to be next to the wall and pull the "passing track" or runaround as near to the other through track as possible.    I think having the passing track close to the main will look more realistic.    And putting the warehouse against the wall outside the curve will allow the track to be longer and run into the corner.    Make the warehouse a low relief flat against the wall with docks and doors modeled.      since buildings are so large in O scale, this reduces the footprint and takes advantage of space that might go to waste.    also, while you reduce the scenery in the corner at the end of the warehouse track, you could greatly increase it in the other corner.     Or you could add a track off the warehouse track back to that other corner for another industry.

I would change the yard ladder a little too.    S-curves tend to cause more derailments than straights.     I would change the switch to the track next to the yard office from an RH to an LH switch and make the ladder straight.    It would give a little more length to those tracks too.   

I think I might try to move the engine house track into an area closer to they yard but that may not be very easy.

I just noticed that all of your industries have sidings facing the same ie trailing point as is the yard.    I would consider making a couple of them facing the other way, so to switch the cars you have to do a run-around move  using the passing track to run around your train to push it the other way into a siding.   

Around the walls layouts or layouts against walls are very nice because they let you simulate large structues as flats against the wall and avoid using up valuable real estate for building footprints.     The team track/scrap dealer track could also go on the outside of the loop  you like.

Another thought just came to mind.    You can also use building facades on the front of layout as against the wall.    For example if your engine house siding was an industry, a building rear could be attached the front of the layout with doors or loading bay to the track and blank front on the aisle.

Here's my around the wall layout. Actually it's around the ceiling made with12"X12' boards and wood shelf brackets. The track layout is two main lines of Gargraves track and with switches for passing sidings. I have 2 passenger and 2 freight trains and I can run a pair of each. My only regret is that I didn't use large curves than 31" & 42", as I'm limited in the size of locomotive and car lenghts. The train room is 19' 12'000_1702000_1703000_1704000_1705000_1706000_1707

The interchange track has an "S" bend coming out of the switch. If instead of a Left switch you use a Right switch in place of the last curved track piece you eliminate the S-bend and extend the Interchange track and you are gonna' want that.  

I like the plan. Lots of switching action.

Lew

 

Operator of the Plywood Empire Route in the Beautiful Berkshires

Growing old is so much more fun than the only alternative.

"Well instead of changing the track height with grades, consider an open grid construction or L-Girder construction." - Agreed, most of table is built but I can play around with it to show valleys.  Benchwork is 48" high so I definitely have room. 

First I would move the siding for the warehouse across from the yard to be next to the wall and pull the "passing track" or runaround as near to the other through track as possible. Great idea, I will adjust this

And putting the warehouse against the wall outside the curve will allow the track to be longer and run into the corner. Love it!! Low relief, more scenery or another industry in the opposite corner is a win.    

I would change the yard ladder a little too.    S-curves tend to cause more derailments than straights.     I would change the switch to the track next to the yard office from an RH to an LH switch and make the ladder straight.    It would give a little more length to those tracks too. Excellent idea, I have not built the peninsula yet so I can make some adjustments there.   

I think I might try to move the engine house track into an area closer to they yard but that may not be very easy. Let me try that too.

I just noticed that all of your industries have sidings facing the same ie trailing point as is the yard.    I would consider making a couple of them facing the other way, so to switch the cars you have to do a run-around move  using the passing track to run around your train to push it the other way into a siding. That new industry across from warehouse I think fits this category and I can reverse the scrap dealer too to make it more challenging.   

Around the walls layouts or layouts against walls are very nice because they let you simulate large structues as flats against the wall and avoid using up valuable real estate for building footprints.     The team track/scrap dealer track could also go on the outside of the loop  you like. I tried to keep this spur inside the main so I could switch while loop running but since its such a small layout representing one town I could get out on the main to do some switching.  Will have to consider this one.

Thank you very much, this was so valuable.  I will update the file over the next 24 hours and repost.

@geysergazer Love this idea too and will implement on next update, hopefully I have enough room on that side.  Thank you also for your valuable feedback.

The interchange track has an "S" bend coming out of the switch. If instead of a Left switch you use a Right switch in place of the last curved track piece you eliminate the S-bend and extend the Interchange track and you are gonna' want that.  

I like the plan. Lots of switching action.

Lew

I have taken the feedback above and updated the AnyRail file and posted a pic with the changes.  Couple of observations/questions:

1. Made all outer curves O-36 from O-48 to make everything fit.  Will tinker with this because I wanted to be able to run some larger equipment if possible.

2. Left side mainline is closer to the passing siding, spur relocated to the left of the mainline with the low relief idea and opposite track and corresponding industry.

3. Changed the yard ladder and moved engine house spur to the peninsula, eliminated spur where engine house was on right side of layout.

4. Updated the interchange to eliminate S curve and expanded in both directions.

5. Eliminated scrap switch and just ran track down and around, may add back in based on how many switches I can afford.

If everyone could check it out again and provide feedback it would be greatly appreciated.  Also, with such a long interchange now do I really need a yard?  Any ideas for the peninsula?

I am also thinking of reducing width of the lower section of the layout (that houses the bridge) from 24" to 18" so there is more room to wander the inside of the layout but would like to hear opinions on giving away space in a train room versus free movement.  Thank you all for your help!!

@prrjim @geysergazer @Mark Boyce

Attachments

Photos (1)
Files (1)

A thought on the yard, you still have an "S" curve.     Depending on the radius, could you replace the first curved section on the penisula with a corresponding switch and start the ladder there?

I think the width of the lower section could be reduced, it is only scenery and you can do a lot in 12 inches.    On the other hand the area at the top with the scrap  yard could be widen to give  you more room for detailing.

I would not have the interchange have the facing section as on the left side.      I would make the interchange track as longer and possibly two tracks side by side.     My operation would be to have inbound cars come off the interchange and be set out at the online industries.    Then the pickups from the industries would go to the interchange.     I would like an interchange track long enough to hold all the cars needed to serve all the industries.

If the interchange was long enough and it looks like it is, I would have cars "layover" there one operating session.     In other words I would pull one track for this operating session, and fill it back.    then next session I would pull the other interchange track and fill it.     That way cars going on the interchange are not popping right back the next you switch.    And you don't have to handle them by hand if you just use alternate tracks.  

I envision two jobs.    Job 1 would be for a train to take the outbound cars from the yard to the interchange and set them out.   then bring back the cars from the interchange to the yard and perhaps sort them for easy switching at the industries.    The other job would take inbound cars from the yard and deliver them to the industries and pick up the outbounds at the industries and take them to the  yard for the next interchange job.     You would start by staging cars on the interchange and also a set of inbounds and a set of outbounds in the yard.     Then put appropriate cars at the various industries.       Maybe you run 5-8 car trains.      The train lengths will be what you like.  

Another slightly different option is to not have a yard at all.      Just have maybe one track for a caboose or some storage and the engine house and one or two more industries.     Then run only job,    A crew would get an engine at the engine house and a caboose (if you RR uses them) and go around the industries doing pickups.    Then they would go to the interchange, pull one of the interchange tracks, and set out what they just picked up.    Then they would go back around to the industries and setout the cars that were just picked up.

You will want some sort of simple car routing system.    The most simple I think is you just replace car type for car type.    For example a if you pickup up a boxcar, you put a different boxcar off the interchange in that spot and do the same for Gondolas etc.     Or  you get fancy and use car cards with waybills, or a switchlist that you may generate with computer software or write by hand.

 

 

Depending on your back-story for the Pike I'd skip the yard. A shortline picking up cars from interchange, taking them down the line and setting them out at industries wouldn't really need a yard. Or more correctly, where yard services would be needed is at Interchange.

My two-cents-worth: I don't like switchback sidings. The prototype doesn't use them because giant time suck and I have had the same experience. Drilling (ordering cars) OTOH is very prototypical and I find it [I suppose esthetically] satisfying and thus, fun. OTOH, some people find the move-the-empty-spot of switching puzzles fun so it's different-strokes-for-different-folks (wow, does that ever date me! ).

Lew

 

Operator of the Plywood Empire Route in the Beautiful Berkshires

Growing old is so much more fun than the only alternative.

Good Morning Guys - I made the adjustment to the interchange track which now doubles the length of when we started (70" to 140"). I also changed the yard ladder which provides 200" of storage but the track spacing is wider so not sure how I feel about that. 

Still struggling with the overall plan for the peninsula.  I originally wanted a coal/ore freight operation so not sure if we can build a coal mine into the peninsula and ditch the yard? @prrjim thank you so much for the operating plan, I appreciate you going above and beyond to help me.  The ideas there are extremely helpful. @geysergazer I'm with you on the switchback but may leave it for now to provide some complexity to the layout and lengthen ops sessions since its such a small layout. So the big question now is if it was your layout what would you do with the peninsula?   

Attachments

Photos (1)
Files (1)

I too have a u shaped layout. the right side is 4' X 12 1/2" and the left is 6' X 12 1/2'. Had I thought about it a bridge at the other end (where I am standing taking the picture would have opened a-lot of other options. The widest turn is 42" radius so I am limited to what engines I can run.

I agree that the Railroads would not create a switchback situation like that if they could avoid it.    they would certainly not do it on their tracks.     

However, industries in tight spots did/do all sorts of things to get track into or next to a building.     So as an industrial track, I don't think the switchback is unprototypical.      Look at photos of industrial trackage in towns and cities.

I think a coalmine takes a lot of space and you are a little limited.     I would skip the mine if it were me, but put in some coal customers such as a coal  yard when they were still common.    Then you can deliver loads off the interchange to the coal customers and send empties back, but the number of cars would not be so many and the space required much smaller.     A lot smaller industries used coal for running steam heat plants or even generators for  years.     The Charmin paper plant in Hamilton Ohio had a coal fired plant that used 4 hopper loads a day.     Unfortunately their unloading track only held 2, so it had to be switched twice a day.     A very good friend of mine ran the shortline RR that switched the plant and told me about operations there.

Whether you keep the yard or not is pretty much what  you like and how  you want to operate.    You might think about what the trains will do and how they will run for operations and base your decision on that.     At the size of your RR, I could go either way.    If it had a few more industries, I would keep the yard.     But also  you could get another goodsize industry on the peninsula and keep one yard track.   

Email me about some information on switchlist software if interested.    Your email is not in your profile.

 

IMG_1918-002

My little 9x16 Attic layout was designed primarily for running on two mainlines with crossovers. So I used Gargraves flextrack to maximize the curve arcs to 084/096 at one end and 072/084 at the hinged entrance bridge end.  There is a minimum of switching in the Service Yard which is entered/exited via Ross curved turnouts off the inner mainline. The layout is small enough that it was more enjoyable if I ran short trains slowly for the period I was able to run trains.

IMG_1845I couldn't resist utilizing the corners for a Denim Mill at one end and Sawmill at the other corner. But as noted earlier, I was forced to stop work when health upsets intervened.

Engine House and Service Yard: IMG_1576Attic Layout 020-002

A&Y RY[NC's Southern/N&W connector].

Attachments

Photos (4)

Hi @prrjim my e-mail has been updated in my profile, thank you for letting me know.  Quick question, If I'm modeling 1940's & 50's the interchange tracks would still be there but class 1's would normally be interchanging freight with themselves the majority of the time right? Their own switchers would deliver "the last mile?"

Jan posted:

Reconfigure the interchange ;adder the way you did the yard ladder.  Movinge the entry switch to the curve to remove the "S" curve and lengthen the legs.

Jan

Yes, this.

Lew

 

Operator of the Plywood Empire Route in the Beautiful Berkshires

Growing old is so much more fun than the only alternative.

Fireball RR posted:

Hi @prrjim my e-mail has been updated in my profile, thank you for letting me know.  Quick question, If I'm modeling 1940's & 50's the interchange tracks would still be there but class 1's would normally be interchanging freight with themselves the majority of the time right? Their own switchers would deliver "the last mile?"

In that time period railroads did indeed [mostly] deliver the last mile with their own crews&equipment. The ICC, which was created to regulate the original railroad monopolies, was tasked with insuring that trackside businesses had access to shipping. Hence switching-jobs and local-freights. In 1980 the ICC was junked as were the old regulations insuring access. Also the old anti-monopoly regulations. Hence the rash of mega-mergers and the end of the switching-job and the local-freight (those services were often money-losers for the railroads but essential for small shippers).

The term 'interchange' means from one railroad entity to another. There was always major interchange among railroads. Chicago was pretty much a gigantic interchange yard because so many railroads end/started there. The California Zephyr "interchanged" twice to get from Chicago to Oakland. Burlington, D&RGW and then Western Pacific. Much/most of the freight tonnage of those three railroads also interchanged to get from origin to destination. What with the recent mega-mergers the four remaining mega-systems do pretty much interchange within themselves. 

Lew

 

Operator of the Plywood Empire Route in the Beautiful Berkshires

Growing old is so much more fun than the only alternative.

"Jan posted:

Reconfigure the interchange ;adder the way you did the yard ladder.  Moving the entry switch to the curve to remove the "S" curve and lengthen the legs."

Forgive me I am not understanding this: I can move the switch down 10" so its coming off a straight when I back out of the switch but then I will lose 10" of storage on each interchange track.  I tried to move the switch back over the two O-36 curves but don't have the space to do that, Help!

Attachments

Photos (2)

I don't have any track-planning software so I have to lay it out on-the-ground. 

Like this:

        IMG_0229

        IMG_0230

I laid this out in O72 but O36 is exactly the same. Bottom-most track is the mainline. No S curves into the two (upper) interchange tracks.

Lew

 

Operator of the Plywood Empire Route in the Beautiful Berkshires

Growing old is so much more fun than the only alternative.

Attachments

Photos (2)

Here it is in O36, opposite direction because that's the only O36 track switches I have:

         IMG_0231

Bottom track is the mainline and the upper two are the interchange tracks.

 

Closer:

         IMG_0234

 

Notice the use of (3) ¼ curve pieces on the upper interchange track:

       IMG_0233

This is because I didn't use the ¼ curve coming off the switch curve, which brings the tracks closer together thus using less table-width. A single ¼ curve piece is also needed coming off the mainline curve:

       IMG_0232

Lew

 

Operator of the Plywood Empire Route in the Beautiful Berkshires

Growing old is so much more fun than the only alternative.

Attachments

Photos (4)

Turned upside-down the orientation is now correct and it's easier to see what track pieces I used:

        IMG_0236

        IMG_0237

        IMG_0238

Lew

 

Operator of the Plywood Empire Route in the Beautiful Berkshires

Growing old is so much more fun than the only alternative.

Attachments

Photos (3)

Pictures worked, got the switch on the curve, thank you all.  Was looking at the plan as we're getting closer to finalizing it.  I have not built the peninsula yet so technically shouldn't that be built on the right side of the layout with the yard closer to the interchange? V.4

Attachments

Photos (1)

Yes, on the other side close to the interchange tracks is what I'd do.  

That way incoming cars can conveniently be blocked and assembled into switching-jobs that will then deliver cars to the various industries.

Lew

 

Operator of the Plywood Empire Route in the Beautiful Berkshires

Growing old is so much more fun than the only alternative.

There is no typical relationship with a shortline yard and an interchange.    Since most shortlines inherited track, I think most have whatever yard they have somewhere other than where they interchange.     Think about the Strasburg RR in Pennsylvania.    They interchange with the PRR on the northeast corridor, and their main runs to Strasburg where they have an engine house and yard.    

I think from a full-size geography view (room-size) you gain the most penninsula putting it parallel to the long dimension in the room.    You could even try a plan where the peninsula is diagonal across the room.

I like the new track work for the interchange.    Avoiding S-curves is always a good idea when possible.

If  you want to support the idea of this being a branch on a big road, you could scenic the interchange area as part of a larger yard/junction where the branch originates.    Put in a dummy mainline track maybe that has not connection but could have something indictating a mainline or maybe jsut some mainline signals, and tower or station facade.

sxe60 posted:

Here's my around the wall layout. Actually it's around the ceiling made with12"X12' boards and wood shelf brackets. The track layout is two main lines of Gargraves track and with switches for passing sidings. I have 2 passenger and 2 freight trains and I can run a pair of each. My only regret is that I didn't use large curves than 31" & 42", as I'm limited in the size of locomotive and car lenghts. The train room is 19' 12'..

Images don't display

Add Reply

Post
The Track Planning and Layout Design Forum is sponsored by

AN OGR FORUM CHARTER SPONSOR
OGR Publishing, Inc., 1310 Eastside Centre Ct, Suite 6, Mountain Home, AR 72653
330-757-3020

www.ogaugerr.com
×
×
×
×
×