The end of the dcs hand held controller?

trainroomgary posted:

feet posted:

Lets say i buy into this new tech, i most likely won't.  Can i buy a phone  without phone service and still use it to run trains?  I checked into an I phone but you have a contract and pay each month for service. I asked the sales person how much if i wanted just the phone. $1000.00. He suggested a I pod for what i was wanting to do. Not cheap either.

Yes:  I am running my layout with no phone service. When a phone is turned off by the phone company it still works. All the features work. internet, clock, weather and 911 service.

I am using a used phone. Got the phone for free, just for my train room.  The only cost was the MTH DCS WiFi Unit • $150.00, with the APP.  A lot of model train fun at a reasonable price.

Gary; Checking out the future of model railroading.

What I don't understand is:

 

A: How is the MTH app is supposed to control Lionel Legacy and TMCC locomotives better than the actual Lionel Legacy / TMCC system? 

 

B: If MTH can make an app that controls Lionel Trains, than why can't Lionel make an app that controls MTH Trains? (would that be of subject to copyright)?

@T1Titan_ZachF posted.

What I don't understand is:

 A: How is the MTH app is supposed to control Lionel Legacy and TMCC locomotives better than the actual Lionel Legacy / TMCC system? 

 B: If MTH can make an app that controls Lionel Trains, than why can't Lionel make an app that controls MTH Trains? (would that be of subject to copyright)?

Hi Zach:  If Barry see this, he should answer this question.  I learned MTH DCS -WiFi from Mike Wolf at my local hobby shop.

Mike is on tour, he may be in your area. Sign up for the MTH Newsletter, to see where he is and other MTH Executives are doing live demos. 

Gary: Having model train fun, learning MTH • DCS  WiFi.

@T1Titan_ZachF posted:

trainroomgary posted:

feet posted:

Lets say i buy into this new tech, i most likely won't.  Can i buy a phone  without phone service and still use it to run trains?  I checked into an I phone but you have a contract and pay each month for service. I asked the sales person how much if i wanted just the phone. $1000.00. He suggested a I pod for what i was wanting to do. Not cheap either.

Yes:  I am running my layout with no phone service. When a phone is turned off by the phone company it still works. All the features work. internet, clock, weather and 911 service.

I am using a used phone. Got the phone for free, just for my train room.  The only cost was the MTH DCS WiFi Unit • $150.00, with the APP.  A lot of model train fun at a reasonable price.

Gary; Checking out the future of model railroading.

What I don't understand is:

 

A: How is the MTH app is supposed to control Lionel Legacy and TMCC locomotives better than the actual Lionel Legacy / TMCC system? Who said anything about better?   The fact I can walk around with my Iphone and control trains without bulky remotes is good enough for me.  The APP can't do everything the Legacy remote can do, for now.  The future?  Who knows

 

B: If MTH can make an app that controls Lionel Trains, than why can't Lionel make an app that controls MTH Trains? (would that be of subject to copyright)?  Lionel has released the code for Legacy and TMCC where MTH has not.  Fair?  No but it's business and each have their reasons.

 

Have to agree with Clem. I am and have been a professional tech guy and always say tech where and where appropriate. In the case of the cell phone and tablet apps, they are just an automation not an innovation. The handhelds allow you to watch your trains. You feel the controls, wheels buttons, etc.

You do not feel anything but the screen with the apps stuff, and have to look down at them more often.

I just hope MTH and Lionel keep the hand held units along with conventional control and apps for those that want them.  I said it before, when the train is not responding to your commands via the app, is it the phone/tablet, your wifi, router? cable service or the manufactures engine?  You know when you call for tech support what the manufacture is going to say...

Tom Q Fan posted:

Have to agree with Clem. I am and have been a professional tech guy and always say tech where and where appropriate. In the case of the cell phone and tablet apps, they are just an automation not an innovation. The handhelds allow you to watch your trains. You feel the controls, wheels buttons, etc.

You do not feel anything but the screen with the apps stuff, and have to look down at them more often.

I just hope MTH and Lionel keep the hand held units along with conventional control and apps for those that want them.  I said it before, when the train is not responding to your commands via the app, is it the phone/tablet, your wifi, router? cable service or the manufactures engine?  You know when you call for tech support what the manufacture is going to say...

Good insights! I have a small 9'x3 switching layout, so for me slow speed and quick control of the trains is essential. With the handheld I can quickly add and take off the speed without having to look down, and now my brain knows exactly where each key is located on the remote, simply by touch. So during an operating session, my eyes are glued to the layout and trains. Hard to emulate that user experience using a mobile phone or tablet.  All for innovation, but the solid experience and interaction between the engineer and the train using the DCS remote has proven to be quite successful for all these years and most likely could continue well into the future. 

@T1Titan_ZachF posted:

What I don't understand is:

A: How is the MTH app is supposed to control Lionel Legacy and TMCC locomotives better than the actual Lionel Legacy / TMCC system? 

B: If MTH can make an app that controls Lionel Trains, than why can't Lionel make an app that controls MTH Trains? (would that be of subject to copyright)?

A: It doesn't.  That's baloney.  You get some Legacy functions, but you don't get all the access to various lighting features, etc.

B: Lionel has released the Legacy protocol specification, MTH has not.

The code for TMCC is open, i.e. released by Lionel.  The code for MTH is closed, not available.  That's the big difference.

H1000 posted:

The Z4000 falls into the category of needing an update, badly. It's a great transformer but it was designed without the TIU or PS2 & PS3 in mind.  The DCS remote was adapted o operate with the receiver which worked out well. I hope there would be a way to use the 9 pin interface on the Z4000 receiver to communicate with the TIU somehow and restore remote control of the Z4000.

I suspect we should be seeing some revamped transformers coming from MTH in the next few years.  The aging Z4000 and its PS1 controls need to get refreshed.

The Z4000 with the Remote Commander plugged in seems to have instantaneous breaker tripping that appears to be quicker that the Z4000 by itself. 

We own PS1 locomotives like many of our friends do and would never want to lose the easy programming or resets for these locomotives that is built in the Z4000.

How many folks have arrived at the same spot we have: enough Z4000 transformer(s) power for the current and future motive power and accessories, enough remotes and TIUs,AIUs, etc. to do the same? 

 In other words "Upgrades?  We don't need no stinkin' upgrades!"

Sooner or later there isn't anything left to get to make it all run right.

BobbyD posted:

H1000 posted:

The Z4000 falls into the category of needing an update, badly. It's a great transformer but it was designed without the TIU or PS2 & PS3 in mind.  The DCS remote was adapted o operate with the receiver which worked out well. I hope there would be a way to use the 9 pin interface on the Z4000 receiver to communicate with the TIU somehow and restore remote control of the Z4000.

I suspect we should be seeing some revamped transformers coming from MTH in the next few years.  The aging Z4000 and its PS1 controls need to get refreshed.

The Z4000 with the Remote Commander plugged in seems to have instantaneous breaker tripping that appears to be quicker that the Z4000 by itself. 

We own PS1 locomotives like many of our friends do and would never want to lose the easy programming or resets for these locomotives that is built in the Z4000.

That's great but why should MTH continue to build a PS1 specific product to support a product that makes up less than 10% or engines that MTH has ever sold for a very small group of users that are slowly diminishing.  We can't expect these companies to continue to maintain production facilities for products that have features in low demand to keep a few people happy for rest of their lives.

I believe that MTH has not updated the Z4000 because of the increase in R&D and retooling costs associated with making a new product that will essentially do same thing... provide power.  The demand for a revamped Z4000 hasn't been that great and there isn't much room for a wow factor when it comes to redesigning the transformer. I'd be looking for app integration and a way to have the transformer resume previous voltage level when it is turned on... nothing spectacular.

But to me it's kind of depressing to see new Z4000's with the remote port on them and no way to use it unless you already own stuff that MTH made years ago. It is also depressing to see the PS1 specific controls for locomotives that MTH produces over 17 years ago and will never be used on anything they (or anyone else) will make in the future. My nephew asked why the Z4000 had these extra programming buttons, and I told him that it is for PS1 engines made before he was born.

BobbyD posted:

H1000 posted:

The Z4000 falls into the category of needing an update, badly. It's a great transformer but it was designed without the TIU or PS2 & PS3 in mind.  The DCS remote was adapted o operate with the receiver which worked out well. I hope there would be a way to use the 9 pin interface on the Z4000 receiver to communicate with the TIU somehow and restore remote control of the Z4000.

I suspect we should be seeing some revamped transformers coming from MTH in the next few years.  The aging Z4000 and its PS1 controls need to get refreshed.

The Z4000 with the Remote Commander plugged in seems to have instantaneous breaker tripping that appears to be quicker that the Z4000 by itself. 

We own PS1 locomotives like many of our friends do and would never want to lose the easy programming or resets for these locomotives that is built in the Z4000.

Setting the Z4000 using the remote gives one 8 amps max, while dialing it up with the handles gives one 10 amps before the breaker throws.  Don't know why there is a difference.

Kerrigan posted:

BobbyD posted:

H1000 posted:

The Z4000 falls into the category of needing an update, badly. It's a great transformer but it was designed without the TIU or PS2 & PS3 in mind.  The DCS remote was adapted o operate with the receiver which worked out well. I hope there would be a way to use the 9 pin interface on the Z4000 receiver to communicate with the TIU somehow and restore remote control of the Z4000.

I suspect we should be seeing some revamped transformers coming from MTH in the next few years.  The aging Z4000 and its PS1 controls need to get refreshed.

The Z4000 with the Remote Commander plugged in seems to have instantaneous breaker tripping that appears to be quicker that the Z4000 by itself. 

We own PS1 locomotives like many of our friends do and would never want to lose the easy programming or resets for these locomotives that is built in the Z4000.

Setting the Z4000 using the remote gives one 8 amps max, while dialing it up with the handles gives one 10 amps before the breaker throws.  Don't know why there is a difference.

That's interesting...

I have also noticed that the voltage readout on the remote & transformer is not always the same as what is at the terminals on the back. 16 volts reads as 17.5 on my meter, but it never gets over 22 at max position.

Kerrigan posted:

BobbyD posted:

H1000 posted:

The Z4000 falls into the category of needing an update, badly. It's a great transformer but it was designed without the TIU or PS2 & PS3 in mind.  The DCS remote was adapted o operate with the receiver which worked out well. I hope there would be a way to use the 9 pin interface on the Z4000 receiver to communicate with the TIU somehow and restore remote control of the Z4000.

I suspect we should be seeing some revamped transformers coming from MTH in the next few years.  The aging Z4000 and its PS1 controls need to get refreshed.

The Z4000 with the Remote Commander plugged in seems to have instantaneous breaker tripping that appears to be quicker that the Z4000 by itself. 

We own PS1 locomotives like many of our friends do and would never want to lose the easy programming or resets for these locomotives that is built in the Z4000.

Setting the Z4000 using the remote gives one 8 amps max, while dialing it up with the handles gives one 10 amps before the breaker throws.  Don't know why there is a difference.

Never paid much attention to that, and in the remote mode you don't get to see the amp load, just know that with the receiver plugged in the tripping is almost instantaneous.

Just velcro a remote to the layout and use it to operate Z4K Tracks. Problem solved.

Barry Broskowitz posted:

Just velcro a remote to the layout and use it to operate Z4K Tracks. Problem solved.

Doesn't work that well when the remotes are discontinued and not available, note the subject of the thread.

I don't agree with the idea that time and technology march on and old stuff doesn't need to be supported any longer.  Anybody remember the now defunct Sega game systems?  They didn't think supporting previous systems was important, either.  The model train hobby is a fairly small group of people who run everything from pre-war to modern.  Because the hobby has such a long history and much of the equipment still operable, it would seem to be in the best interests of the manufacturers to make their new systems as backward compatible as possible, and to offer as many options as possible.

To say that young people are so infatuated with their cell phones they won't do model trains unless they can be run from their phones is rather insulting to these same young people.  The actual method of operation, I believe, has little to do with new people getting into this hobby.  They either want model trains or they don't.  Frankly, the cost of getting into and expanding on the initial investment is probably the biggest hurdle; model trains ain't cheap.  BTW; I see lots of young people every weekend flying their drones, which have become immensely popular.  And every person I see is using a handheld remote control to fly those things.

So, yes, there is room for conventional transformer operation, handheld remotes and cell phones.  It doesn't have to be an either/or proposition.

Okay, I was not too thrilled about using a phone or an iPad to control my trains, but I'll wave the white flag.  I can see the future.

I'll have to get up to speed on what is required, and I guess I'll add the equipment during the next 12 months.  No sense to be the last man standing with a remote.

John,

That problem is a year or more away. Live for today.

I'm sticking with my BPRC stuff, I just converted an Atlas F3 from TMCC/ERR to BPRC.

Here's a photo showing the components before I wired them in:

9.6v 200Mah battery, Deltang Rx65b sitting on top, and a BIK-U3B on/off switch with charging jack on the right.  I use a RCS Tx3 transmitter to run the trains:

No smoke or sound, yet.  I'm hoping someone will offer something in the future but if it doesn't happen I'm happy.  Been running BPRC for over 2 years now with ZERO problems.

Bob Delbridge posted:

I'm sticking with my BPRC stuff, I just converted an Atlas F3 from TMCC/ERR to BPRC.

...

No smoke or sound, yet.  I'm hoping someone will offer something in the future but if it doesn't happen I'm happy.  Been running BPRC for over 2 years now with ZERO problems.

Sorry Bob, that's a non starter for me!  The great sound and smoke effects really add to the experience, at least they do for me and most of the folks I run across.