quote:Originally posted by RailfanRon:
I have been following this thread from the beginning and I think the average user could care less, he or she just wants it to work.
Ron
+1
+1
+1
quote:Originally posted by SantaFeFan:Jim, I am curious: what happens in a DCS loco when you lose contact and it continues to move? How do you stop your train from crashing? How do you blow the horn, how do you control any function? How do you get the loco back under control?quote:Originally posted by Jim D:
I guess thats why adding more antenna to an engine seems to help at our club. It's like putting your hand over the engine to make it go. I still think TMCC should be redesigned that when the engine loses signal the engine should keep moving at the same speed like DCS instead of stopping or going full speed.
Jim D.
With DCS, first thing if no collision coming up is "start engine" to regain control. Just stop track power here if a collision is imminent. TMCC/Legacy problem is engines normally lose signal and stop in the most unfortunate inaccesible places like under bridges, in tunnels, and under large stations making retrival to get signal back a little more interesting.
quote:engines normally lose signal and stop in the most unfortunate inaccesible places like under bridges, in tunnels, and under large stations making retrival to get signal back a little more interesting.
Why not just fix the weak-signal areas so that you don't lose control? Am I missing something here?
On the club layout we have lots of spots were DCS has problems. You gain control of the engine when it starts to pick up the signal. We have one side of the layout that has no DCS it's 75' long. A DCS engine enters the section and continues along till it comes back to the DCS side. If there is a problem we just shut the power off. It's a lot less frustrating than having the engine stop.
Jim D
Jim D
I bet he would have preferred to shut down when he lost signal
Pluses and minus for either point of view...I don't think either one is wrong.
BTW
BTW
quote:Originally posted by Dale Manquen:quote:engines normally lose signal and stop in the most unfortunate inaccesible places like under bridges, in tunnels, and under large stations making retrival to get signal back a little more interesting.
Why not just fix the weak-signal areas so that you don't lose control? Am I missing something here?
Because they are not our layouts, but nearly every Lionel controlled double layer layut we have operated on has these issues, if not with a few owners locos, then some guests ones. Someone mentioned Legacy, have had a few crashes where the Legacy controllers lost contact with the base and rear ended suddenly stopped ltrains/locos. Fortunately everything was running fairly slow due to switches.
Maybe an option could be provided to turn this feature on or off. IE an AUX + # code when programming the engine ID.quote:Originally posted by Jim D:
On the club layout we have lots of spots were DCS has problems. You gain control of the engine when it starts to pick up the signal. We have one side of the layout that has no DCS it's 75' long. A DCS engine enters the section and continues along till it comes back to the DCS side. If there is a problem we just shut the power off. It's a lot less frustrating than having the engine stop.
Jim D
Jon, That would be a great option. Some days TMCC is realy bad on some lines. We have to turn the Legacy base off and run conventional. If we can get the engine running and keep it running this would be great when we have shows.
Jim D.
Jim D.
That may be a little problem as TMCC does not operate at Scale MPH as does DCs I beleive the decision to make a TMCC loco stop when losing signal was to prevent it from taking off down the track at 18 volts in conventional. A DCS engine can be running at 10 scale miles per hour when it loses signal and continues at 10 scale MPH until another DCS command is sent to it or the track voltage is shut down. A TMCC engine traveling at the same speed as the 10 MPH of the given example would speed up if the TMCC was set to continue instead of stopping.
quote:Originally posted by bluelinec4:
That may be a little problem as TMCC does not operate at Scale MPH as does DCs I beleive the decision to make a TMCC loco stop when losing signal was to prevent it from taking off down the track at 18 volts in conventional. A DCS engine can be running at 10 scale miles per hour when it loses signal and continues at 10 scale MPH until another DCS command is sent to it or the track voltage is shut down. A TMCC engine traveling at the same speed as the 10 MPH of the given example would speed up if the TMCC was set to continue instead of stopping.
I'm sure code could be written that if the engine was originally in command mode and then lost the signal, to remain at last set speed until it saw the command signal again.
Wonder if it would be similar to the command that keeps the engine accelerating to a speed step selection when you switch from one engine to another with your CAB-2
Well if thats possible it would make life alot easier I tend to like running MU consists I hate running Lionel because one engine stops when the other is driving away. I lost more trraction tires and burnt out a couple of engines because of that.
Well I have to say That I agree with Dale 100%. I've been in the electrical industry for almost 40 years and a Ham Operator for 20 years and my take on the word ground plane was the exact opposite of what the Legacy/TMCC system actually does. I'm sure poor Dale was pulling his hair out(Yea I've seen your picture LOL.) as I argued how a ground plane is supposed to work.
On a radio antenna a ground plane enhances the signal but that's not what your doing here.Your trying to block signal by forcing the signal to reference only the track that your engine is operating on.That's why running Grounded wire under an overpass will make the engine on the lower level reference the track on the lower level and gets rid of the blink.Your blocking the signal on the upper track.
I don't know what to call it though "Ground plane it's not.Whoever coined that phrase didn't call it right.
When I worked at the power company we had a digging tool with a telescoping handle and what looked like two clam shells on the end .You put it in the hole and turned it clockwise and it picked up dirt.When the clam shells got full you pulled it out released the shells and dumped the dirt.We didn't call it a rotary digging device,we called it a Typewriter
I guess once you label something it's hard to change it.
David
On a radio antenna a ground plane enhances the signal but that's not what your doing here.Your trying to block signal by forcing the signal to reference only the track that your engine is operating on.That's why running Grounded wire under an overpass will make the engine on the lower level reference the track on the lower level and gets rid of the blink.Your blocking the signal on the upper track.
I don't know what to call it though "Ground plane it's not.Whoever coined that phrase didn't call it right.
When I worked at the power company we had a digging tool with a telescoping handle and what looked like two clam shells on the end .You put it in the hole and turned it clockwise and it picked up dirt.When the clam shells got full you pulled it out released the shells and dumped the dirt.We didn't call it a rotary digging device,we called it a Typewriter
I guess once you label something it's hard to change it.
David
"Ground plane" might be noted as "EARTH ground plane", perhaps just to keep some common terminology in use. Not U, not common, not the outside rails. Some folks may not have a very good understanding of this, so I think it's important to be specific though we run the risk of being cumbersome in descriptions. The instructions/techniques for overcoming a weak TMCC/Legacy signal problem need to be very clear so incorrect connections aren't made. See DPC's post above for how the "earth ground plane/wire" in TMCC/Legacy application eliminates spurious signals.
And so it goes. G.. its hard some times. The wire in question just went from a radiator to a shield in two post.
Al
Al
quote:Originally posted by HOSO&NZ:
And so it goes. G.. its hard some times. The wire in question just went from a radiator to a shield in two post.
Al
laughter!Dale, I'm with you. Ground signal radiator (aka GSR 
) is my choice. Whatever Lionel called it in the beginning, they were anything but fully explanitory about the need for and where/how to install GSRs and why.
We couldn't understand why our engines were so unresponsive until coming on OGR and digesting what Dale explained. In my opinion, Dale has been the only person to be so easily understood about this GSR thing and other topics. Thank you Dale.
Originally Posted by GGG:
quote:Originally posted by chuck:quote:I am sorry Lionel, but with all due respect, how can you insist that any radio receiver will work with it's receiving antenna picking up it's signal from it's ground terminal.
Where is this coming from? Pin 5 on the command base computer port is tied to the ground prong on the wall wart transformer. The wall wart is plugged into the three prong outlet on the wall which, if the house was wired correctly, goes all the way back to the load center/fuse box where it (aka the ground wire) is tied to earth ground. I don't think I've ever heard of or seen a radio transmitter that had the output tied to earth ground and actually worked?
Interesting enough, the house wire neutral or return path goes all the way to the circuit breaker panel and attaches to the same buss bar that the ground wire from the receptical ties too. Which is the same bar that the power company neutral is tied too. Of course there is a separate ground cable that attaches to the same bar and then into ground rods around your house. G
I give! After studying this old thread and the referenced items that this quote is part of, I am more than somewhat confused as to how it all works since the breaker panel is wired as described here by GGG. That is, the neutral and ground wires are connected in, and grounded to earth from, the panel box.
I'll give it a shot...
Just because the safety wire in your house wiring is grounded at one end at the breaker box, it does not mean that it's not an antenna over it's length at it's other end for our purpose. And as AN ANTENNA is how it functions for our train control. And so therefore the desire to call it something other than a ground plane or ground wire for how we use it.
Its all black 
magic.
Thanks guys. I love it when science and magic comes together!
Originally Posted by Guest:
Dale, I'm with you. Ground signal radiator (aka GSR ) is my choice. Whatever Lionel called it in the beginning, they were anything but fully explanitory about the need for and where/how to install GSRs and why.
We couldn't understand why our engines were so unresponsive until coming on OGR and digesting what Dale explained. In my opinion, Dale has been the only person to be so easily understood about this GSR thing and other topics. Thank you Dale.
We still have a lot to learn about how best to drive the TMCC signal on very large layouts. We definitely need to consider both halves of the "antenna", including the lead connected to the ground terminal of the Base (Pin 5), and the Track signal conducted through the wheels.
I am really disappointed that Lionel has not corrected Mike R.'s video with all that wrong information about sync pulses and ground planes. I thought Jon would actually do something to maintain the technical accuracy of Lionel's technical information. They just don't seem to care!
Maybe try have more pressing things to do?
It's not that its grounded to earth ground that's important. It's that ALL of the ground wires in the house are tied together (or are supposed to be) that's important. Those wires also introduce a strong vertical component to the signal and help create an "envelope" around the track. In theory the receivers should always be between the track portion and the house wiring "envelope".
This breaks down when tracks cross over each other and the antenna in the receiver is now sandwiched between two track sources and these mask the "envelope". If the house is properly grounded you can extend the envelope into trouble areas by taping onto grounded objects (like metal cold water pipes). If the grounding to the building is suspect then using Dale's method of tapping pin 5 on the computer port is the simplest and surest method to get to the other half of the signal.
This breaks down when tracks cross over each other and the antenna in the receiver is now sandwiched between two track sources and these mask the "envelope". If the house is properly grounded you can extend the envelope into trouble areas by taping onto grounded objects (like metal cold water pipes). If the grounding to the building is suspect then using Dale's method of tapping pin 5 on the computer port is the simplest and surest method to get to the other half of the signal.
"Perhaps they have more pressing things to do?"
Marty, if one (innocently or otherwise) makes a mistake that affects hundreds or thousands of people, I feel that one should show good faith by trying to correct the error once one is aware of it. To me, that would have a VERY high priority to maintain my integrity. There aren't too many things that would be more important than that!
Let's just call it "GROUND". We already have Common and Hot. That's all the average modeler needs to hear.
This equates to someone saying "Price Point" 
Originally Posted by Dale Manquen:
Marty, if one (innocently or otherwise) makes a mistake that affects hundreds or thousands of people, I feel that one should show good faith by trying to correct the error once one is aware of it. To me, that would have a VERY high priority to maintain my integrity. There aren't too many things that would be more important than that!
I suppose Lionel is not unlike many other manufacturers that produce products for consumers. I.E. auto manufacturers can produce defective items and as long as they don't pose a safety risk, they issue a TSB, but don't alert the customer. If the issue pops up after the warranty and is repaired per the TSB it is still the consumers "problem" and may cost hundreds or thousands to repair . Your S.O.L, your only option is to try a different manufacturer in hopes of a more reliable product.
As is case with O guage trains choices are limited so the ball is in the manufacturers court.
It seems there are enough "disclaimers" in place for o-guage manufacturers in place that they can fall short wherever they want. The the competition has its own drawbacks so theres not always an advantage to switching.
Dale, I'm surprised Lionel hasn't asked you to come on board, or maybe you could consider a book like Barry.
I would be interested to see a discussion of these matters between yourself and JonZ.
My nomination for a name:
Der RemotenRadioisherBahnSignalKaputenFixenDinge
Just sort of rolls off the tongue doesn't it?
Unfortunately a lot of folks have already mentally tied "common" to "ground".
It's bad enough that the system was advertised as a "one wire" hookup. While technically true this blurs the actual situation that we are using two wires and effectively hides how the system works and what to look for when it doesn't.
Unfortunately "earth ground" may be the best we can do.
I see that this thread has been resurrected from a year ago. Good deal.
Back in the 70's when I was selling and repairing CB radios, the roof of my van formed a nice "GROUND PLANE" for the co-phased, dual CB antennas I had up there.
Dale, I wish you luck in this crusade. If/when you are successful, will you tackle the LASHUP problem for me? 
Well good luck Dale. I imagine this is low on the priority list. Bottom line is that the "solution" doesn't need the theory to work. And as far as I know that portion of video Is correct.
I think earth ground may be a compromise. Perhaps the 3-rd rail? Wait, that's already used!
I recall in an old Reader's Digest, in the Military Humor" section a "true story".
This sailor and his shipmate were painting the foundation of something on the deck and a new Ensign walked by and said "What are you doing there sailor?". The young sailor looked up and "Painting the BRT sir." The Ensign, replied "Good job, carry on."
After the Ensign walked away the shipmate said "What's a BRT?". The other replied "Big Round Thing!"
Maybe we can call it the BGT - Big G-round Thing!
The sorta-but-not-really-just-ground thingie
Rich, Don Quixote is one of my heroes. I have lots of bent lances from jousting with windmills! That's what happens when you are an idealist. Hold your ground. Who is John Galt?
I really had high hopes that Jon Z. would straighten Mike R. out after I talked to Jon about this, and then Mike would correct the errors, but I was apparently wrong. Jon definitely knows that the video is wrong, and I hope by now Mike does too.
Maybe the terminology is wrong but the fixes generously posted by experienced TMCC operators seems to have worked well. I still can't figure out a engine powered up on a track with no TMCC "U" connected comes up in command mode? ING &Yang = CHI The perfect TMCC signal 
I still can't figure out a engine powered up on a track with no TMCC "U" connected comes up in command mode
Since TMCC is a radio signal, if the command base is on and connected to some track in the room to serve as a broadcast antenna you will get TMCC signal throughout the room and any TMCC locomotive will come up in command mode. I regularly test TMCC locomotives on my work table that are alligator clipped to a spare transformer and not connected in any way to the layout. If the layout's command base is on, I can run my test locomotives in command mode at the table.
We are still having many issues at the NJHirailers club. We are going to try to build a liner amplifier to boost the signal and clean it up The amp was designed by Jim La Ferve. A club in Long Island NY built it and solved 99% of their problems. I think there was a thread here awhile ago about the amp. One of our members found it on a Yahoo web page.
Jim D.
