What is the Correct Definition of "Mint Condition?"

o-gauge items are not shipped "sealed" by the manufacturers, so the only ones that will fit your definition are the ones still sealed in their master shipping carton.

Most consumer items are "sealed" with clear tape or something like that so the store can tell if it you opened it when you take it back for a refund.

Wow! Thank you, Bob. That was very helpful.  

From the TCA website:

C-10 

Mint—Brand New: all original; unused and unblemished.

C-9 

Factory New—Brand New: all original; unused; may

evidence factory rubs and the slightest evidence of handling,

shipping and having been test run at the factory.

C-8 

Like New—Complete all original: no rust, no missing

parts; may show effects of being on display and/or age;

may have been run.

C-7 

Excellent—all original: minute scratches and paint

nicks; no rust and no missing parts; no distortion of component

parts.

C-6 

Very Good: Minor scratches and paint nicks, minor

spots of surface rust, free of dents. May have minor parts replaced.

C-5 

Good—Sign of play wear: scratches and minor paint

loss. Small dents, minor surface rust. Evidence of heavy use.

C-4 

Fair: Scratched, moderate paint loss, dented missing

parts, surface rust. Evidence of heavy use.

C-3 

Poor—Requires major body repair: Heavily

scratched, major rust and missing parts. Restoration candidate.

C-2 

Restoration required.

C-1 

Junk—parts value only.

IMHO, a test run locomotive is not mint.

Here is a link to the core TCA grading standards, which have been adopted by most other clubs.

This TCA page contains links to supplemental documents with details on grading. The detailed document on postwar grading is 6.1 mb / 112 pages.

So, assuming Lionel, MTH or whomever, test runs everything at the factory, nothing can ever be classified as mint.

Rusty

Is this a good assumption anymore? 

Things that shake loose from the high seas to high dudgeon on the 12,000-mile road to the check-out counter I can understand.

Electronics that just don't work properly out-of-the-box....I can't believe were ever tested at a factory.  At least for electrical function. 

No facts to back up the hunch....just  perception/experience.

Hmmmm......

Just wondering.

KD

Well....you know what happens when you ***-u-me. I've never seen any evidence of a Lionel factory test run, and I question the whole "MTH test runs everything here in the States", given all of the DOA MTH posts here on the forum.

Golly! And I thought that quantum mechanics was complicated. Schrodinger had it easy with his cat, he should have used a model train instead.

so my trains are shipped in what and then boxed where?

  yea, whatever. you guys ...........

One should read the TCA's presentation on grading toy trains http://www.tcamembers.org/stan...0Grading%20Guide.pdf

The probability of one obtaining a 'true' Mint - C-10 item is almost NIL! Even if you are the first one to open it from a sealed master carton.

Ron M

I've been to MTH several times, and have been through the entire facility. I don't recall seeing any locos being test run, other then those in for repairs. It may be possible that they are tested after assembly in the Mother Land. I've seen rolling stock direct from China without any boxes at all, just stacked with cardboard sheets between each in a shipping carton. A lot of times, they're in the wrong boxes. Try grading those.New in plastic bag!

Consistent pet peeve of mine.

"Mint in Box" really means "Unknown in Box".  (Note the TCA C-10 grading only refers to condition, not whether the item has been out of the box for inspection.  Once you power it up, it's not C-10, but I would think opened for inspection and carefully repacked can still meet the requirement for C-10)

When you start talking about unopened boxes, it's all a matter of who takes the risk to be the first to open/inspect it.

The catch-22 being that if you open an item that is advertised as "Mint in Box" and it's got a serious problem, the seller will likely try to tell you it's no longer mint since you opened it (forget about if you actually tried to run it to check it out!), so they are not willing to take it back.  (though your mileage may vary, and it of course may depend on the seller)

I firmly believe the term "Mint in Box" was invented as a way for people with hoards of unopened trains to try to maximize their resale potential with minimum risk.

There is probably a small subset of buyers who prefer this situation, but I think they are in the minority. (At least for modern items - I do remember the magazine story about a big Lionel dealer buying a sealed PW N&W Freight set and x-raying it just to make sure the contents were in the sealed boxes.  He had no intention of ever opening the set)

-Dave

It a tough situation for the retailer.

If we take it out and display it and test run it, some customers will not want to buy it. They feel like it is used.

Others ask us to take it out and run it before we ship it. 

Most of these trains look much better out of the box so we think it helps us sell.

I have heard of dealers that will not open boxes unless you buy it first. I just can't imagine telling a customer that. 

Any new items I resell I list as C-9 to avoid any argument. I Recently opened up a girls N&W hopper from a few years back. I am the original owner, it has never been out of the box. I found the sprung metal truck broken into a few pieces. To the ones who say "brand new, unopened, unrun, never taken out of the sealed box" is mint..would that still be mint? Like Dave45681 said mint in box really means unknown in box.

Mint is C10, unopened, in the original box.

Once opened, it is no longer C10 but if the customer is operating it doesn't matter.  It should only matter to a collector, and for them, they needn't have it taken out of the box given their intended use.

Mint is typically used excessively, and in my experience many sellers are saying an item is C9 when it is typically C6 through C8. 

Personally I feel "Mint" for trains would be- Like new, and a prime example. Best paint, metal work, parts. If its not sealed, careful inspection is due. A test also, but carefully, in a cradle, not on track. A non-functioning item is not mint. 

Keep in mind the box has a grade of its own!. Are we grading a unmolested box, or the train?  Both? An opened lightly handled comic can still be "mint". So are Matchbox cars from cardboard boxes. But not a hot wheel! Especially in a sealed package, flaws are often highly collectible. I don't think flaws are as desirable in trains.

 In the end "mint" is an opinion, and opinions may vary.    

The definition of conditions is where an organization such as the Train Collector's Association comes in. Folks who belong to the TCA agree to abide by its rules, and therefore should abide by the TCA definitions of conditions.
Additionally, most other Toy Train related organizations have adopted the TCA's definitions.
So, as long as both parties are members of one of these organizations, the definitions are not all that loose.

When Toy Trains weren't all that valuable, the traditional definitions of Mint, etc., were adequate.
Since the dollar value of some toy trains has become significant, the TCA has developed new definitions of condition, and created detailed guides to grading.
So, if we wish to be precise in communicating grade, we should be using the current standards, which have already been linked several times.

Once again, this is the main page for TCA standards, it contains links to the detailed standards documents.

By and large, we live in an operator-oriented culture nowadays as opposed to a heavily collectors-oriented culture that thrived after the post-war Lionel Corporation ceased producing trains, circa 1969-ish.

In the 1970's and especially the 1980's, folks were more inclined to "want" Lionel post-war trains.  And if something was truly stored away in an un-opened box all those years, it was very much considered rare indeed -- adding considerable $$$ to its worth.  And given those trains were more mechanical vs. electronic, there was less emphasis/worry placed on whether an original post-war product "worked".  Buyers assumed an unopened post-war product would work, and simply owning it made them ecstatic.

As the name of the organization suggests, TCA and its grading system was largely crafted during periods of high collector activity.  We as operators are attempting to use those designations as best as we can, although discrepancies are to be expected due to issues that surface when operators place different emphasis on actual operating condition vs purely cosmetic appearance... hence the dilemma between C10 vs. C9, and the ensuing consequence of "testing" a truly Mint piece actually makes it no longer Mint in the purist view.

True... There will always be less-than-honest sellers out there who are looking to take advantage of unsuspecting buyers.  But for the most part, we're splitting hairs when trying to describe Mint vs Like-New in todays's world.

David 

As CW states and several have posted above, the TCA grading standards are generally considered sufficient to define an items condition.

The one key part not copied verbatim above though is this part of the opening statement: "Standards for all toy train and related accessory items apply to the visual appearance of the item and do not consider the operating functionality of the equipment."

So per the TCA standards, a non-operating item can in fact be considered mint if it is cosmetically flawless.

For older items that the simple mechanical and electrical systems are not likely to be defective there is no (or much less of) issue.  This is of course more of a question for modern items. 

-Dave

Vern,

For me, out of the box and test run only would be LNIB (like new in box).  Mint to me means still in a sealed box.

To me as an operator, the TCA cosmetic grading standards have little value.  TCA rates: "C-8  Like New—Complete all original: no rust, no missing

parts; may show effects of being on display and/or age; may have been run."

I am not a member of the TCA and would not use the TCA grading system for modern model trains.  I would (and do) look for an explanation of grade from the seller.  I want to know if its been out of the box, if there are any broken or missing parts (can happen with a "mint engine") and if the item has been test-run or otherwise run.

Given that the short factory warranties are not transferable on the secondary market, I would rather know if an engine runs rather that be in a sealed box.

Jim

So if a 700e Hudson has deteriorated from Zinc rot inside its still-factory sealed, completely original box, is it still mint?

It is until you open it to discover the problem. As I said earlier, Schrodinger should have used a 'mint' train instead of a cat.

Not necessarily true; the contents can be x-rayed to verify the integrity of the items inside the boxes without opening it.  Some collectors actually do this.  So the original hypothetical question remains on whether the 700e could still be considered "mint" even if it crumbled to dust inside its original sealed box.

There was a guy, (I can't recall his name), from another forum I belong to who met with the board of directors at York several years ago to try to persuade TCA to consider adopting grading for operating trains separate from collectibles. It didn't make it past the first presentation.

Don

John: There was a guy that used to sell at the WB&A (TCA) meets in the late 80's that did the x-ray thing. He was a radiologist and did a little "government work" on slow shifts.

Nicole: You wouldn't happen to be a Heinlein fan? The Schrodinger reference recalled a story of his.

quote:

There was a guy, (I can't recall his name), from another forum I belong to who met with the board of directors at York several years ago to try to persuade TCA to consider adopting grading for operating trains separate from collectibles. It didn't make it past the first presentation.

I don't understand the need for separate grading for operator's pieces. The condition is unchanged. Just ask whether the item is in full working order. If not, ask for a list the defects.

I have been known to read Heinlein at times. I enjoy good SF. 

I'm also careful to store my books at less than 451F.  

Dave,

I know you posted your response a couple of days ago, but I had to laugh when you related the story about the the dealer who X-Rayed his Post War N&W set.  I wrote that story and was fascinated by what he had to do get X-Rays of the set.  He thought about opening the top slightly to get some of the paperwork out of the set, but decided against that.  He did do that with a Girl's Set he had and finally took everything out of the box so each item could be photographed.  So the Girl's Set became a C9, it was a BEAUTIFUL C9!

By the way,Jumijo's take on Mint and Test Run is right on the money and has the great advantage of being concise as well.

Ed Boyle

In this instance the owner should carefully open the box, dump all the contents, sell the usable parts, and list the "brick" box for a grand or so.  It would find a buyer.

Indeed it would, but that still doesn't answer the question if the zinc-rotted engine is technically still considered mint if it was left factory sealed in its box.

Since I buy trains to run and play with only my requirements are fare less stressful.

Mint = NIB and never used. Displayed is OK. Hence, NIB = mint. Anything else close would be ANIB.

 I always use this rule of thumb,many might disagree.

 Mint to me refers as bought by and from the original owner and by your best judgment of that persons word,was never used at all since in their possession   .

  Used mint : An item that you purchase from the second owner (or third,fourth,etc.)  of  previously mentioned description of a mint item

 Unless you bought it originally or absolutely know within 100% doubt it was never run,just like the quest of the Tootsie Row Tootsie Pop,the world will never know

Three...

After all, Mr. Owl is the wisest of us all.

Rusty

Because aside from Mint, the TCA grading scheme has little value for operators.  Especially, with the complication of modern day electronics, it is important for an operator to know if a piece (especially an engine) has been/actually runs.  Thus, while cosmetic appearance is important to an operator, whether a piece actually runs is also very important to an operator. 

IMHO, there needs to be an operator, not just a collector, grading scheme.  Maybe a double grade, the first representing condition and the second operation status.

Jim