ZW-L or Z4000. What would you buy?

I didn't mean to set off any worries about the ZW-L and Proto-1; the known problems were with chopped-wave transformers from the 90's and early 2000's. These units were designed before PS/1 came out. The early Z750 and some of the Lionel and MRC units were in this category, and the K-Line Power Chief would work with some PS/1 engines but not others. Check out the Mike Reagan video. I seem to remember him saying that the ZW-L was compatible with PS/1, but I'm not sure. There was a big thread on this forum about the video and I think some of those who posted did comment on using the ZW-L with PS/1. I can't say anything about it from personal experience, since I don't have a ZW-L.  If you want to be absolutely sure, ask Lionel customer service. I'm sure they will know. 

 

I will admit that I am slightly cautious minded in reading Southwest Hiawatha's post elsewhere in this thread indicating the chopped waves could damage PS1.0 electronics, so I 'm not sure how much I may tempt fate here. (or at least maybe I'll try it with a lesser engine as a test bed)

I too was concerned about the chopped sinewave produced by the ZW-L. Ingeniero No1 graciously posted a thread showing the sinewaves of a Z4000 and a ZW-L. The ZW-L produced a sharktooth sinewave a various partial throttle settings. But at full throttle it generated a sinewave that was VERY close to the Z4000's at the same voltage (around 19 plus volts). So I just set each throttle wide open and run with it.

I love my Z4K, it has proven itself over time, sort of like my accessories power supplies, 2 Lionel Type Z 250W transformers and the 150W Type V, they just keep on putting out the power. I think like Marty Fitz if I was starting fresh then I would really give the new Lionel ZW-L monster serious consideration. I am adding another 10x18 ft to my layout and will add another Z4K for power there, the price difference is quite enough that I could not justify the ZW-L for the extension. I did consider the ZW-L and then sell my Z4K, but I like a proven performer, let's give the new one some time and see how it holds up.

in my first post my reason for gauges/readouts were : i always watch the amps the train i am running is drawing.if it jumps suddenly by 2-3 or more amps,i will know something is wrong. its saved a few locos from smoking the boards. you would not ignore the gauges /speedo on your car dash when its running.........just saying-jim

How well does the ZW-L run conventional Williams locomotives?

 

How well does it run MTH with Proto Sound 2/3 conventionally?

It does well with every brand and type of model loco I have.  The ZW-L seems to run Legacy locos and conventional Lionel locos quite a bit slower, smoothly, in conventional mode than any other power supply I have tried, including: Z4000, CW-80, and an old Marx supply (1950s).  It seems to run Williams and PS1, 2, and 3 locos just a tiny bit slower, smoothly, than the others.  I have over 100 locos: Marx, Lionel, RMT, Darstead (AC rectifier installed), MTH, Williams, Atlas, and 3rd Rail, from pre-war to very recent.   They all run as well or better (conventionally) on the ZW-L than on anything else I have used.  That said, except for Legacy locos, the margin of "better" is very slight and probably not important. 

I am very happy with my Z4K.  It has been a reliable performer for nearly 10 years now.  If I ever needed to buy a new transformer, I would likely buy another one.

If I was gonna. More power. ZW-L

We use both, because we have 6 power districts... the Z4K and the ZW-C with 4 180watt bricks. I think if we had to start over, we'd start with the ZW-L and add to the layout as needed. Absolutely nothing wrong with our ZW-C or the Z4000, the ZW-L wasn't available when we bought these....

I like the thoughts about the ZW-C. You can run the bricks through that if you want conventional control with the traditional look. You can also get voltmeter/ammeters for the ZW-C which will provide you with (obviously) the voltage and amperage per output.

 

This would be much less costly than either a Z4K or ZW-L. And the ZW-C can put out 720 watts with 4 180 watt bricks. I had underrated these controllers for a long time.

 

Gerry

I have a Z4000 because...well...that's what I have.  If I had a larger layout I would have one Z4000 and one ZW-L.  I'm perfectly happy with the performance of my Z4000 though and can't really justify a second large transformer (I have tons of smaller ones available for accessories, etc.).

This is an interesting thread that cumulatively provides a lot of insights and information (and no doubt a bit of mis-information, too). Many people provide answers to the question based on their needs and perspective and that varies so much that I imagine most folks realize there is no single best answer.  I've owned both, as well as about five other types. Both are fine units, each with certain "advantages" (difference anyway) that may matter to one person or another. 

 

Standing back and trying to think about it from all perspectives, it seems to me:

- If you are going to run Legacy/TMCC, DCS, or some other digital control system, its best to buy the equipment most compatible with your system.

- If you are on a tight budget, neither or these transformers is for you - they cost too much - unless you can find a good one used and that is much more likely to happen with a Z4K than the ZW-L.

- The Z4K is a fine unit that won't let you down.  superb.

- If you run conventionally, particularly if you have a lot of Lionel Legacy and conventional locos, or if you really want to control up to four trains from just one unit, the ZW-L may make sense for you.  In my experience, it will run just about everything from every era and every manufacturer (except early TMCC locos) at least a bit smoother and slower with more linear throttle than will the Z4k or any other power source I have tried. With recent Legacy locos the difference is close to stunning though: much slower, much smoother at low speeds, much more pull, etc.  But otherwise the difference, while noticeable, is not great and this most expensive of power sources is hard to justify unless you just like the looks and having Lionel's best. 

 

Always good to have positive thoughts about others. Or did the mis-information come from you?

 

Gerry

I think mostly mis-information from the thread like this comes from people not clearly understanding what the person posting means sometimes, like exactly what do I mean by "slow" and "smooth," or what someone else might mean by "too expensive." 

Kinda off the subject, but I'm rebuilding to a mid-size layout and have a ZW with 2 180 bricks.  Plan to run DCS and conventional engines, will this work?  Tks 

 

The ZW-L is marketed with a splendid degree of specsmanship. Its basically four 160watt transformers with some fancy "bells and whistles" added and selling for a whopping $795.00 price tag.

The two ancient 100% American made ZW's that I use to run my layout can put out a combined 28 amps and they are capable of putting out a full 275 watts at any output. With one ZW I can power two loops on a 16' x 28' layout using only one power connection to the track. Those transformers are so powerful, you could weld with those things.  I paid about $100 each for them, they are 60 years old and still work perfectly. .

  If I forked out the $795 for the ZW-L; I do not see the advantage. What am I missing here?

Dennis

If you have a pw ZW with an output of 275 watts it is indeed unique.

 

As Lionel specifies the pw ZW has an input of 275 watts. The output is nearer 190-200 watts if that. None of my three, all rennovated, has an output above 10 amps as recorded under load on a meter with 1-1/2% variation--in particular when heated up after continous running.

 

P.S:

The power company's line voltage[input] makes a difference also. While my reference above to 190-200 wattage output is based on 120 VAC line voltage on the DUke system, brownouts do occur resulting in  lower line voltage.

 

On my Mountain Cottage layout I occasionally experienced  104-105 VAC line Voltage when TVA cut back to address the systemwide load[a "Brownout"]. Of course that action reduced the pw ZW's wattage output about proportionally.

High price or not, the points to advantage for the ZW-L for me are: the advanced protection, as good as any I've seen.  The four variable outputs.  A full and continuous 10 amps at up to 18 volts on any of four variable outputs with a maximum well over 600 watts.  

 

But by far most important, a a big advantage over the ZW for me, is the chopped voltage nature of how the ZW-L delivers its power as compared to the ZW, Z4K, etc. Basically it provides constant peak equivalent to 18 volts but at variable duty cycles to vary power, and thus running trains  much more smoothly at low power ratings. 

 

I also think Dewey made an important distinction, while I have seen a ZW provide about 11-12 amps at 18 volts (right around 200 watts) maximum output to one track for a short period, I think they are pretty much 10 amps continuous duty with the 275 watts being the total input power.     

You got me there I have no idea what slow, smooth and expensive mean.  I guess we have to go back to school

The part about it being 4 x 160 watts transformers is inaccurate.  (would be 155 if 620 divided by 4, but that's not really my point). 

 

When Lionel reduced the power, they implemented circuitry that allows any of the 1st 3 throttles you use (any 3) to put out a full 180 watts.  The 4th one would be limited to 80 watts (if all others were maxed out) so as to not produce more than 620 watts as the entire sum of all 4 outputs.  So if you are not drawing full power from any of the first 3, the amount of limiting would be reduced proportionately.

 

The bells and whistles part is probably somewhat true, but some of them (such as those Lee and others have listed) are actually useful, but may be less so for entirely conventional operation. For those of us who like to run both command controlled trains and also some conventional ones from time to time, this combination allows that relatively easily in one package without a lot of extra components and additional wiring required.

 

As to the $795, they can be had for much less (I paid $640-$650).

 

-Dave

I still love my Z-4000. It's ideal for my needs and icing on the cake is having bought it at $300 - considerably less than a discounted $640-$650 ZW-L.

 

Like beauty, show, smooth, and expensive are all in the eye of beholder.  A school can teach the definitions but people differ as to their likes.  That's what is interesting about this thread for me, reading others' opinions, is seeing some of that difference by reading how others perceive these two units and their relative merits.   Again, a nice thread. 

Nothing at all wrong with that if it fits your needs.

 

For me, even if I find Z4Ks for $300(which I'm pretty sure I can't for new ones), I'd need to buy 2 of them to get 4 fully adjustable outputs (the fixed 10V and 14 V are not terribly useful to me).  So for my needs the delta just became only $50.

 

Everyone has different needs and features that are important to them.  I would probably still hold onto a Z4k having a few Proto 1 engines, for those it cannot be beat with the ease of accessing the clinks and clanks if necessary.  (Though the ZW-L does seem to run PS1 for general operation just fine)

 

-Dave

WOW. I would have thought that "mis-information" was something factual, not subjective. Like the transformer weighs 15 pounds when it really weighs 28, or it puts out a maximum 22 volts when it can only put out 18.

 

Slow, smooth and expensive are all subjective, and really aren't factual information. I don't think that something subjective can really be "mis-information". It can be interpreted incorrectly by a reader, but it isn't mis-informing because it is personal opinion. Am I wrong here?

 

I do agree that this is an interesting and informative post. Which is personal opinion.

 

Gerry

Yeah, I actually had a specific "factual" (not) thing in mind that had been mentioned in an earlier ZW-L thread when I wrote that, but I don't really want to dwell on negative aspects. Sometimes people state things that are just wrong without meaning to cause confusion and others repeat it or accept it as true.  

 

Anyway, the subjective is where a lot of people mis-communicate, if not mis-inform.  For example, when I posted many weeks back just after getting ZW-L and talked about how "slow" it ran my locos, it would have helped had I explained that "slow" to me meant about 10-12 scale mph - as slow as I want a train to move.  Several people took it to mean 2 - 3 scale mph, basically just "creeping" in my book.  There was some bit of back and forth and confusion before than got straightened out.

 

  

 

Gerry, I don't have a clue as to whether your are right or wrong...

I am still trying to understand the laborious point being made in your posts after reading your early post this morning chafing Lee for his "misinformation".

 

Is it that you think being subjective is sinful?

 

 

 

I've found this thread to be very informative, and I imagine I'm not alone.  I have a Z4000 and am fully satisfied with it, but I'm also sure that those who buy the new ZW-L (which I have seen in action) will be equally satisfied.  I hope Lionel sells a ton of them...nope, better make that many tons of them because they are hefty buggers.

Subjective is fine. I like it this post and find it informative. That is totally subjective. I suspect some don't agree.

 

And Allan you are certainly right about selling many tons of them. It is a big, heavy sucker. I have yet to drop it from 42" to see how the handles hold up, but they feel (again this subjective stuff) GREAT.

 

Gerry

 

The Z4000 and Lionel ZW-L are both outstanding transformers.  Like most all other aspects of our hobby, IT IS A MATTER OF PERSONAL OPINION.  In most cases of comparison of two like and equal items it is up to the individual to choose based on his or her likes and dislikes.  No more, no less.  This thread holds lots of information on both transformers, and very interesting topics I did not know before postings.

 

TEX

Steve

I'd go for the ZW-L, no question.