>If yes, you have 1/2 of signal circuit missing or blocked and using only the wiring in the walls.
Not true! The conduit should be an excellent radiator for the airborne signal as long as it is earth-grounded.
Again, please use your ohmmeter to measure between the U-ground or conduit and the wire that feeds the TMCC signal to your layout. This should be an open circuit, i.e. near infinite resistance.
Big_Boy_4005 posted:Here in the US, the metal conduit can be used as the earth ground for the circuit. There is no separate conductor inside, just a hot (black) and a neutral (white) wire. The only time a green wire is required in metal, is inside flexible conduit.
None of the house voltage that attached to the layout is hard wired to the house. Instead, there is a bank of dedicated outlets where the various systems plug into, using a properly sized cord and plug. Then the first metal box has the ground wire bonded to it, sending the ground through the entire system.
I think we can forgo that alternate outlet test, since this is the location where I want and need it to work, and it does. I did think of one additional test that I should do. That is the simultaneous base and track power up test. There remains some confusion as to whether the base needs to be powered first in order to gain control of the track.
It's 2:30 AM over here. Time for bed. Enjoy your day Nick.
is that a GFI outlet your layout is plugged into?
might make a difference.
bigdodgetrain posted:is that a GFI outlet your layout is plugged into?
might make a difference.
Nope, those are 20 A rated outlets with the funny prong style. I could only get them in the rectangular format at Menards, or maybe it was the 4 gang face plate that made me use them. The red and black is just electrical tape to mark which house phase they are on.
Dale Manquen posted:>If yes, you have 1/2 of signal circuit missing or blocked and using only the wiring in the walls.
Not true! The conduit should be an excellent radiator for the airborne signal as long as it is earth-grounded.
Again, please use your ohmmeter to measure between the U-ground or conduit and the wire that feeds the TMCC signal to your layout. This should be an open circuit, i.e. near infinite resistance.
I will Dale. That and the radio test. Since we went through this exercise a little more than three years ago, much has changed. I now have a nice digital meter that I can read and trust, and the layout has more than double the amount of live track that it had back then.
Since most of the trouble is on the main level, and a number of ground buses have been added there, I'm pretty convinced that with a little strategic cutting I may be able to clean things up. I'm leaning toward this conclusion based on the wiring on the upper level and the relatively trouble free TMCC signal there. That ground bus simply follows the track all the way around, no branches, no loops, just one very long wire. I also need to look at the wire that connects to the base, and how it enters the ground wire network.
now that you know the base is a working base. have you tried holding your hand over an engine and see if it still takes off when powered up?
another thing I don't recall anyone asking is put the base over the layout. at our club the base is in the center of the room over the layout a few inches from the celling.
bigdodgetrain posted:now that you know the base is a working base. have you tried holding your hand over an engine and see if it still takes off when powered up?
another thing I don't recall anyone asking is put the base over the layout. at our club the base is in the center of the room over the layout a few inches from the celling.
I haven't tried the hand over the engine yet, mainly because until yesterday I had that pesky electrical bridge, and I couldn't isolate just one engine to experiment. Now I can!
Moving the base to "high ground" is not really possible, because of the way the layout is designed and where the outlet is located. The TMCC base has worked well from the current location, down low, for years. They are both at the center of the room. I'm not sure how these two factors would relate to the track signal. It would seem that they are more closely related to the handheld to base communication, and I'm not having trouble with that aspect.
I'm just getting up the gumption to head downstairs and start doing these tests that everyone has suggested. I think I'm up to half a dozen right now. I don't mind doing them, they're kind of fun, and all in the name of progress, which is the name of the game. I'll stay with it until I've fixed the problem or worn out the OGR braintrust, whichever comes first.
I suggest doing some good old fashioned train running with TMCC for now. Do some switching maneuvers and have fun with what you have done so far. If nothing else, just to relax and enjoy your trains for a couple hours.....
I can't imagine what moving the base higher will do for the TMCC signal, and I seriously doubt that will make a difference. The classic reason for mounting it higher and centered is for the remote to base communications, there it makes a difference.
If I was over 15 feet away from my Legacy base it wouldn't communicate with the engines. Gunrunner suggested a larger antenna for the legacy base and now I have no problems. This is probably not your problem, but from the size of your layout it could be a problem in the future.
could it be that the legacy base being mounted vertical which turns the antenna horizontal have any effect?
my experience an antenna works best when it is vertical.
just throwing things out there.
Antenna orientation is an issue and I recommend a better antenna if you're having remote to base issues. My point is that moving the base higher will not help TMCC signal issues.
Scott T Johnson posted:This would make for a very good reality TV series. Like Goldrush on the Discovery Channel only with smart people.
I think Unsolved Mysteries was taken.
OK guys, more test results are in.
My test to prove or disprove RickO's theory (see page 1) that the base needs to be powered first. It does not, both track and base power can be turned on simultaneously and the train will remain at rest with lights on.
GRJohn's wall wart ground test. Wall wart good, measured ~.5Ω from prong to outside barrel.
Dale's track ground to earth ground test. No connection, infinite ohms.
Big Dodge, hand over engine on layout test, using regular layout power supply. Engine wakes up in command mode, at rest, lights on. With hand in place, engine obeys commands sent from Cab-1 remote. Note, the area where this test was conducted is a known TMCC signal weak spot. I expected it to need my hand to run.
The test was then repeated hands free at startup. Again train woke up in command mode.
I would do Bob Bartizek's test, but I think that the Big Dodge test proved what he was going after with his suggestion.
What have we learned? The base can control a section of the layout and an engine. Both track and command power can come on at the same time. The wall wart is good, and there is no earth ground connection to the track ground network.
bigdodgetrain posted:could it be that the legacy base being mounted vertical which turns the antenna horizontal have any effect?
my experience an antenna works best when it is vertical.
just throwing things out there.
If I'm not mistaken, that would only matter if I was using the Cab-2 remote. I still love my Cab-1's, I have 9 of them(I'm expecting company). That's why I won't let go of TMCC. The only issue I see with the way it is mounted is that the remote won't sit in the charger. For the little I plan to use the Cab-2, I can just use AA's.
Penn-Pacific posted:I suggest doing some good old fashioned train running with TMCC for now. Do some switching maneuvers and have fun with what you have done so far. If nothing else, just to relax and enjoy your trains for a couple hours.....
I actually have a way to do just that without any signal headaches. I have an LC+ engine that hasn't been on the rails yet. It is sitting by my right foot as I type, like a puppy begging for attention.
it is obvious it is a signal issue.
holding you have over the engines proves a signal issue.
many have solved it with a ground plane wire.
you might want to get Dale's adaptor http://www.trainfacts.com/trainfacts/?p=704
bigdodgetrain posted:it is obvious it is a signal issue.
holding you have over the engines proves a signal issue.
many have solved it with a ground plane wire.
you might want to get Dale's adaptor http://www.trainfacts.com/trainfacts/?p=704
I have many ground plane wires, where they won't be seen on the finished layout. Some locations will be very difficult to disguise it. I would really like to try to fix the signal. I still believe there are things that I can do to improve it. I have some engines that work everywhere, and others that only work on the upper deck.
This like trying to cure a disease, why do some get it and others not? Is it something in the engine? Why is the signal bad in spots? What do those spots have in common? Is the base weak?
The ground plane wire is an easy fix, it's like putting a band-aid on. I'm just hoping there's a way to not have to.
Wouldn't the metal conduit act like an earth ground where ever it goes on the layout? Perhaps more so than say 14/2 flex wire? (fail TMCC works)
How are the wall outlets 3rd connection (earth ground) connected to the metal outlet box.
This may sound crazy but did you try turning off the florescent lights. Perhaps a leaky or noisy ballast.
I think we had another one of these mysteries a few years where the location was just tooo dry , no rain for weeks resulting in a poor earth ground.
Big_Boy_4005 posted: I have some engines that work everywhere, and others that only work on the upper deck.This like trying to cure a disease, why do some get it and others not? Is it something in the engine? Why is the signal bad in spots? What do those spots have in common? Is the base weak?
Engines with the "weakest" antenna will be most susceptible to ground plane issues. Often times its not every loco, just one or a few.
Diesels are more likely to have a weaker antenna than steamers. Lionel uses the handrails that run the length of the boiler on steamers for the antenna, doesn't get much better than that.
Given the "mammoth" size of your layout it seems you have may a few issues contributing to your signal problem, whereas the "average "sized layout may only have one or the other.
No one has ever stated the size limitations in relation to base output. Maybe Dale knows, I don't know if Lionel factored in the possibility of one base running over half a mile of track.
Mike Reagan has already posted some new product photos on another thread. I'm guessing himself and JonZ won't get anywhere near this thread.
Get that bed n' breakfast ready for Dale!
Don't have near the layout you have but do have the same or similar problem. This is very informative.
Good luck, looking forward for positive results.
Brent
Gregg, as I've said before, the room is filled with earth ground sources. There are 3 major earth ground systems:
It is because of number 3 that it is unlikely that the fluorescent lighting is having any effect on the track signal.
The ground wire from the cord coming out of the wall socket is secured to the first box in the chain with a proper ground screw, thus grounding all the conduit and boxes in the chain.
Rick, this conversation actually started three and a half years ago with this topic. Mike replied back then and explained about the coil on the railsounds board interfering with the signal. Lionel added a shield to later versions of that board. I had Matt go through a bunch of engines, adding shields where necessary, and lengthening antennas.
I'm convinced that the bad spots are related to wiring that has been added below the main level, because engines that used to get past these spots, no longer do. Bottom line, I unknowingly screwed something up, and I want to fix it.
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