It's me again (sorry).
I was just watching the Eric's Trains YouTube video of the Legacy PRR 2-10-4; he mentioned the build/ release dates of 2011/2012, Would that be in the same time frame as the faulty K4, and so, any reports of similar issues with that (big) model?
Not trying to foul the waters here, just wondering...
Mark in Oregon
PS: once my back heals, I'll be less annoying, I promise! 🙂
@Strummer posted:You would think that, instead of adding additional "bell and whistle" effects, Lionel would pay attention to the basics... like making sure these things are capable of running without unnecessary failure. 🤔
Mark in Oregon
I've mentioned this in the past. But my impression of the current Lionel is more of a toy making company, than a model train manufacturer.
With the constant reinventing of the Lionchief system, to the unperfected Bluetooth, to the new base 3.
These days it's more about the latest and greatest whizz bang gotta have it item.
Whatever it takes to fatten the bottom line I guess.
@RickO posted:I've mentioned this in the past. But my impression of the current Lionel is more of a toy making company, than a model train manufacturer.
With the constant reinventing of the Lionchief system, to the unperfected Bluetooth, to the new base 3.
These days it's more about the latest and greatest whizz bang gotta have it item.
Whatever it takes to fatten the bottom line I guess.
Yeah, I'm afraid you're right. But then that begs the question: what good is the "whizz bang" if the darn thing won't/ can't run? 🤔
Anyway, this is important stuff you guys are doing, and I appreciate it. 👍
Mark in Oregon
@Strummer posted:It's me again (sorry).
I was just watching the Eric's Trains YouTube video of the Legacy PRR 2-10-4; he mentioned the build/ release dates of 2011/2012, Would that be in the same time frame as the faulty K4, and so, any reports of similar issues with that (big) model?
Not trying to foul the waters here, just wondering...
Mark in Oregon
PS: once my back heals, I'll be less annoying, I promise! 🙂
Here’s what we know so far, and it’s a good point on the thread anyways to update the known information…….the ONLY actual failures we’ve seen so far are on the 2011 run of K4’s …..we have identified a few modes that have similar construction as the 2011 run of K4’s …..BUT! ….on the bright side, we’ve also identified MANY Legacy models that have a better designed gear box……Dave has been doing a wonderful job keeping the list updated on this thread…….this thread is still an evolving piece of informational works …..kind of like a fact finding mission,…….it is boiling down to large locomotives with divorced gear boxes ( those with a separate worm shaft ) are ok, and those with a worm pressed directly onto the motor ( like the K4 construction) are potential trouble makers. HOWEVER, We’re not ruling out any locomotives until we’re crystal clear if we see the nice large spacer that prevents worm wheel side shift!... BUT, let me make this clear, again, we’ve only seen failures on the 2011 K4 models,…..the other models are on the fail list so folks can decide for themselves if they want to do a preemptive strike or not…….
Pat
@harmonyards posted:Here’s what we know so far, and it’s a good point on the thread anyways to update the known information…….the ONLY actual failures we’ve seen so far are on the 2011 run of K4’s
I thought there was a report of a failed H10 as well. If not, my bad.
@rplst8 posted:I thought there was a report of a failed H10 as well. If not, my bad.
It is on the list, Rick did a video on it to highlighting the troublesome spots. I think there is also some pictures of the gearbox, gears and such with a little more space than what should be which would/will result in movement and play in the gears which will definitely lead to problems down the road. Check back around page 3-4 I think. I'm off to bed. Ni ni
@rplst8 posted:I thought there was a report of a failed H10 as well. If not, my bad.
As Dave remarked, Rick’s H10 is showing the signs of failure, but hasn’t actually failed yet…..
Pat
I have an idea for this failure. I'm still stuck on the idea of an easier way to resolve this issue than ripping the whole locomotive apart, drilling holes in it, and installing the spacers.
Why couldn't we use a split brass rod with the proper diameter and drop it over the shaft and then squeeze it together so it can't come off the shaft. We just trying to keep the gear from being able to walk over on the shaft, and I can't see why this wouldn't do the job.
John
Interesting... although one would still have to " rip the whole locomotive apart" to some degree just to gain access to the gearbox housing...or am I missing something here?
It were me, I think I would go with Pat's fix: it just seems more..."stout" and permanent.
Mark in Oregon
@gunrunnerjohn posted:I have an idea for this failure. I'm still stuck on the idea of an easier way to resolve this issue than ripping the whole locomotive apart, drilling holes in it, and installing the spacers.
Why couldn't we use a split brass rod with the proper diameter and drop it over the shaft and then squeeze it together so it can't come off the shaft. We just trying to keep the gear from being able to walk over on the shaft, and I can't see why this wouldn't do the job.
Either way, you’re still getting down to the gear box,….the only difference in my fix and your suggestion is drilling one tiny hole. Other than that, the procedure is identical,…..however, with my fix, it’s a bit more precise, and I’m reducing drag against the worm wheel with the spacer added to the arm….I then custom tailor the spacer to be a good fit, with zero drag,…..but as I’ve told the other fella who claimed he shoved washers in his, …..to each his own,….if it works, it works,…..my plan keeps any broad friction off the worm wheel itself, if you look closely at the installed pic on page 1, you’ll actually see where there’s a gap between the brass arm, and the worm wheel,….anything that gets “shoved” around the worm wheel, and then locked in place by bending or whatever, is gonna produce drag on the worm wheel,…..trust me, I’ve tried,…..this ain’t something I just whipped up in a few minutes, …..😉
Pat
@harmonyards posted:Either way, you’re still getting down to the gear box,….
Pat
Thanks Pat
That's what I was alluding to. If you have to tear it down that far in either case, then what the heck...👍
Mark in Oregon
I don't see anything "temporary" about my idea. Also, I'm looking for a fix that almost anyone could do on their own. I suspect that when it comes to measuring and drilling holes in the frame, many folks are going to cringe at that prospect, thus complicating the repair if they have to ship it out for the fix.
Pat, you haven't actually had an H10 in house yet though have you? I mean, not that it would be different from the pictures we've already seen, it's just about the same as the K4'S anyhow. The fix would still be the fix unless there had to be some other sort of tweaking found out after you had it in front of you, right?
@gunrunnerjohn posted:I don't see anything "temporary" about my idea. Also, I'm looking for a fix that almost anyone could do on their own. I suspect that when it comes to measuring and drilling holes in the frame, many folks are going to cringe at that prospect, thus complicating the repair if they have to ship it out for the fix.
That's true John, I get what you're saying. I would never assume to second guess someone with your abilities.
I guess my point was the bit about initially having to take it down to the gearbox, before addressing the problem. I suspect that first step is not much more than removing the boiler/cab and whatever electronics are in the way...(?)
I'm in no way a "repair person", but I do like to fiddle around with this type of stuff. 🙂
Mark in Oregon
I agree you have to get to the gearbox, but if you then have to ship the chassis out, pay for the fix, and return shipping, it's a whole lot more expensive as well as a lot more time. If it's possible to do a simple and functional DIY repair for this issue, that would certainly be desirable, at least IMO.
Going back to Pat’s very first post. The piece you show sitting on the Snap On box looks very robust and well machined when you study it close. In the picture of the install with it in place. It looks to be 2 pieces of brass stock. Do you start with a standard set piece and then shim it on a case to case basis ?
I agree there’s a lot of ways to accomplish this. This looks well thought out and as mentioned. No fear of anything floating around your gearbox. Even the locking screw can be accessed if you want to check it for tightness as part of your routine maintenance.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:I agree you have to get to the gearbox, but if you then have to ship the chassis out, pay for the fix, and return shipping, it's a whole lot more expensive as well as a lot more time. If it's possible to do a simple and functional DIY repair for this issue, that would certainly be desirable, at least IMO.
Most certainly agree, if there’s a home remedy y’all can do, that’s fine too,….there’s no harm no foul, understand, I developed my fix so it can’t come back to haunt me,…..as I’ve said before, I’ve tried the crimp a washer deal, and it just looked like and felt like amateur hour IMO, …plus, I didn’t like the drag it created,…..😉….
Pat
@Dave_C posted:Going back to Pat’s very first post. The piece you show sitting on the Snap On box looks very robust and well machined when you study it close. In the picture of the install with it in place. It looks to be 2 pieces of brass stock. Do you start with a standard set piece and then shim it on a case to case basis ?
I agree there’s a lot of ways to accomplish this. This looks well thought out and as mentioned. No fear of anything floating around your gearbox. Even the locking screw can be accessed if you want to check it for tightness as part of your routine maintenance.
Correct, it is indeed 2 separate pieces at first, the arm is simple brass flat stock, the spacer is machined by yours truly, to a standard size, it’s then press fitted into the arm, then brazed ( brass weld) so it can’t ever come apart,…..then I sneak up on the bushing width trimming it on the mill for a precise ride……the arms I can crank out as ready to go units, then basically trim to fit,…..as mentioned, I’ve not seen a one size fit all solution in the 4 examples I’ve repaired so far,…..all 4 repairs were successful…..
Pat
@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:Pat, you haven't actually had an H10 in house yet though have you? I mean, not that it would be different from the pictures we've already seen, it's just about the same as the K4'S anyhow. The fix would still be the fix unless there had to be some other sort of tweaking found out after you had it in front of you, right?
No, I have not had a H10 in house yet, however, I’m sure my process and parts will be identical,….as John noted, the H10 box is a bit more narrow, but still we’re seeing evidence of the “ shift” on here, and in pictures sent to me off line …..it won’t be long before one comes across my plate…..
Pat
@harmonyards posted:...as mentioned, I’ve not seen a one size fit all solution in the 4 examples I’ve repaired so far,…..all 4 repairs were successful…..
Pat
Awesome...👍
Mark in Oregon
Access to this requires an OGR Forum Supporting Membership
