MTH LIRR MU's in new catalog

Hello Steve (SIRT)

Well, from reading many of your posted messages here and other threads elsewhere, where you comment ardently about what should be, and/or is missing, from various MTH produced items, or should have been included and is not on same, including some posts by you on this thread, well, I would have thought you also were a rivet counter. And especially what with the high quality of your modeling (and weathering)  work !

PS: On magnification - I saw faint traces of silver color on the window frames of your custom-painted LIRR MP-54 (PRR as Lionel built) cars. Still, a very nice job !

I wonder how you would feel if ALL the MTH produced NYC Subway (and Chicago Subway) set car trucks all came WITHOUT their detail-required 3rd rail shoes. Or if MTH ever produced the old SIRT MU  cars,  they produced them without 3rd rail shoes on THEIR trucks (heh) !

Well, I guess from your posting, those matters likely would not bother you much either - as who else (the other 99%) here at this forum, as you stated, would notice the (any)  missing important detail items, or even care.  Its only just a hobby !

Regards - Joe F

With 3 rail, I can only attempt to bring things to a certain level which is generally not enough by 2 rail standards as you well know and require.

I hope this clears thing up a bit.

 

I wish we were all in your league Joe but you must realize we are at the mercy of the vendor’s cost reduction offerings.

 

I’m sure I’ll have to touch up those new MU’s when they arrive. Just hope the sounds are convincing and correct to the 1960’s period the cars operated in.

All in all, it has been about a 50 year wait for me to have a set of these common MU cars. I can’t believe no one made them in the past.

 

MTH will be happy with all those sales as I suggested. The SIRT cars as like the SIRT S2’s will sell out too if Mike listens to my suggestions.

I know what N.E.customers are looking for.

 

S.

Received the 6 car set today lacking the silver window frames as Joe's photo pointed out along with

the lack luster, unconvincing sounds.

Very busy right now, will pursue the issue sometime during the week.

Definitely not as advertised. MTH always overlooks the obvious cosmetics.

I'm just glad to have the set. If it wasn't for MTH, I wouldn't have much of a motive fleet. I have a grand total of two Long Island Lionel engines, one of which was requested by a local train club. My only other engine is an Atlas. Everything else is MTH. So I'll take what I can get, warts and all. Sure wish other manufacturers would make more Long Island engines.

 

Andy

Lets see a picture of the LIRR MUs!!

 

Sunrise

Hey Sunrise

 

An earlier poster on this thread put up some photos at the bottom of his post. You have to click on them. Here is one o0f them

 

 

Thanks for the info LIRR Steamer... Hmmmm....the aluminum windows sure would have made these units look sharp.  I think I'm going to pass.....

 

Sunrise

Hello All and Steve (SIRT) --

Another important detail is the missing ROOF RIVET DETAILS.

AND -- also most older MP-54's had a roof conduit electrical cable pipe  running along the outer center of the roof, for lights in the clerestory roof.  And all the MP-54 roofs were riveted sheet steel panels, plates.

As the senior tech-support consultant person since 1999 interfacing near daily with MTH on all the NYC subway sets produced, I made sure ALL BODY AND ROOF RIVET proper and accurate details, where required,  were included in the bodies AND roofs of pre war and post war steel subway carbody models.  EXCEPT the BMT EL Car Q types which in prototype had canvas fabric covering over wooden roofs ! (thus smooth appearing roofs)

The MTH produced LIRR Cars have completely smooth roofs - and should have had the riveted seams and sheet metal panels-fabricated roof as per prototype appearance.

SEE the last, bottom posted B&W Photo of rivets & seams on a real LIRR MP-54  roof.

And, the MISSING 3rd Rail beams and 3rd rail shoes, said shoes that the MTH NY (and Chicago) Subway sets DO accurately have, as DO the MTH Articulated RED ARROW Liberty Liners and CNS&M ELectroliners also accurately have on their trucks.  The LIRR MU Cars ran on tracks as powered ONLY via outside 3rd Rail - just like subway cars.

The LIRR MU Motor cars had both trucks fitted with 3rd rail shoes.  Some trailers had one truck fitted with shoes.

And then  lastly, the missing aluminum frame colored window frames......oh well ----at least these MTH MP-54's are better than nothing at all !!. And I do otherwise, like them! I know I can add the 3rd rail shoes, and window frame "color" treatment -- but, just stating ..... heh !

I posted some pics of my home made LIRR Motor MP-54 cars I made 30 years ago. An Arch Roof and Clerestory Roof style car - shown with an earlier MTH produced Tuscan LIRR MP-54 (with its shiny black roof).

 

Regards - Joe F

I got the last set, I want 1.3 million for it

Do you offer any discount on this for forum members

 

I was able to get the four car set from Nassau Hobby even though I did not pre-order it. I'm glad they ordered extra stock. I wasn't going to get it, but the photos here changed my mind. Also it is hard to find LIRR items so I decided to go for it.

LIRR 1555

 

You posted that you painted a more realistic grey and orange paint scheme.  I was wondering what the paint brand and colors are that you used.  

 

I have a few cars I want to redo in the LIRR grey and orange detail but haven't been able to find something that looks close enough.

 

(Sorry to side track this thread a bit)

 

Thanks,

Ed

Fixing the MTH MU set oversights.

Yellow seats?

No silver window frames?

What were they thinking?

      

They did get the buzzer right.

 

 

MTH LIRR orange is (REEFER ORANGE) slightly faded look which I like.

Lionel tends to be more red (as delivered new) not very appealing.

Johnny, just Trains has the six car set for 565 shipped. Check with them. I stayed local and over paid by a hundred.

Too late, the set is already on it's way to me. Thanks anyway for the heads up. Like all of my subway sets I only have the four car set and no extra cars.

 

Steve- I love the round window treatment you did on your other set you made. Very cool.

Steve very well said. He's has been telling everyone for years how he consults on every subway.

As much as I do love the subways put out by both companys, I must admit, I for one don't have the knowledge to notice the over sights of detail and  there for I'm happy with them.

I know LIONEL on the other hand did use a consultant from Nate's group on the R 27's, I had met him a few years back. They worked pretty close with him. But again i don't know just how right they got it. I don't remember reading of any missing details on the boards. 

I think we all notice the shotty work. Windows falling out warping vents etc. The thing I find most insulting with the the manufactures is how they do not acknowledge any of it. They just dump it on the consumer.

Like you I'm very handy and go a head with the needed fixes as soon as I take them out of the boxes. The R27's with more then 50% of the windows out was real disgrace. A lot of folks had windows stuck up in the roof of the shell causing the door motors to jam and burn out the motors or strip gears. Now after about six hour into the set, I'm happy with it. It's a shame right?

It is an issue when we spend about $650.00 on each set and the companies still don't correct the issues.

These sets have been around for years and we still see the same old problems.

Pure greed, complacency and laziness with a lack of good customer service.

 

Take your're money and run.

NC5 -

Round window LIRR versions are easy to make.

 

1. Cut clear Mylar or window material used on building kits, O or HO the size to make a new door.

2. Find some round garage sale price stickers,

3. Place round sticker on the clear Mylar door.

4. Spray paint orange.

5. Go around the sticker with a fine marker to simulate rubber gasket.

6. Remove round sticker showing clear round window and glue the new door over existing door.

 

Presto!

That's it!

Wow Steve, those are fantastic innovative ways to get the details you want done. Thanks so much for sharing them!

 

 

Hello Steve (SIRT)  --

 

One "fact" you got dead Wrong !

 

I DO deal solely with one MTH Vice President at MTH - and ONLY one person, as per my original long ago express stipulations for my consulting services with MTH . I don't,  nor desire to,  deal with any other, nor multiples of,  MTH "staff" employees.  And I need not to ! Only with VP Management.  I deal with him regarding ONLY with the model NY Subway Passenger Car Body exterior and interior details, paint, route signage.  Nothing else. NOT anything to do with power train, electronics, or sound systems.

 

Any consultations or any interfacing for my tech support for any of the MTH NY Subway sets were and are done solely thru this one Vice President at MTH, and originally with an earlier VP (John Adelsberger) from 1999 until he departed from MTH, and the present VP in mention email contacted me back in 2004 to request that I continue onward with him.

 

I have sent your message posted here,  to this MTH VP, for his amusement and his comments (heh) on "your comments" alluding to my not at all being "known" at MTH. He just called me a few days ago re: the LIRR sets issues, and I will again speak with him Monday.

 

I have for 13 years message-posted and shared privately and solely to all members of my NYC Transit Modelers Group, forwarded copies of countless "back and forth" email discussions between this MTH VP and myself, related to various subway set projects he and I  together worked upon.  You once were a NYCTMG member, but left some years ago.  I guess you didn't bother to read those messages and any other of the messages thru the years. They all are still documented and archived there in the messages archives - and hundreds of my members there are long well aware of my work with MTH !

 

So, Steve, I don't need to worry about what "you" alone think,  as my relationship with MTH thru this MTH VP, is well file-documented via 14 years of files of countless letters, emails and phone calls, blueprint plans,  and shop drawings, design photos, on his end and in my extensive files and data on my end. And much discussed on some other forum boards thru the past 13 + years.

 

Regards - Joe F

Again, I still have to wonder why nothing has changed for the better.

As for V.P. M.H., he’s just a production manager more concerned about coordination and scheduling, obviously not details.

I was unable to get a response from R.W. and B.S. on some other product input so I have to wonder, who in those many years is still working there?

 

Good luck, I hope the Sub series continues and they finally implement more of your ideas with several needed improvements.

I received my MU set yesterday and have been trying it out. In general I am happy with it except for one item which may or may not be a defect. With all my MTH subway sets when I put it into "auto mode" the subways will go around and stop, make sounds and continue without any input from me. On this set it will do the same for maybe a couple of station stops when you place it in "auto mode" and then it will stop and go into neutral. When I push the direction button once it will continue for one or two more station stops say the station stop name and then go into neutral again. Is this a problem with my set or is it common with this current set? I have tried cleaning the track just in case there is some kind of a conductivity problem and the results are the same.  I also tried swapping my MTH Z-750 to a Z-1000 and it ran a little faster, but still the same problem of dropping into neutral from "auto mode".

 

The next thing is more amusing than anything else, but just where is "Bella Rose"? I have heard of Bellerose before though.

I just shook my head last week when I heard that station pronunciation - BELLA ROSE?

The sound guy at MTH probably never rode the line. 

That branch is the least interesting and not very popular.

 

Gee, ya think they could have put a little more effort in the sounds with all this new PS3 memory space they claim to have.

What's the new excuse gonna be?

 

LIRR STATION LISTS –

 http://www.subwaynut.com/lirr/index.html

 

I started this tread looking so forward to this set. I am so glad I kept my cash and skipped it. Bella Rose come on give me a break!! We did a sound file once before for MTH (Staten Island Alco S-2) and would gladly do it again. We did it for free and still had a great time doing it, asking for nothing in return.

No reply to emails on suggestions. Guess Roy & Bill don't work there anymore?

 

Thanks again for your help along with Brian and others in doing the SIRT S2 crew sounds. Wish we had more time and PS3 added memory space back then.

The ferry steam whistle , Newark overhead jet and sea gulls would have been great in the background. Still have all the other MP3's as well.

At least we got the passing MU motor sound in it.

 

If the LIRR B/W caboose due out next doesn't have grey letters, I may pass on that one since I made my own.

Same with the Atlas Trainman. At least I got a reply from them. We shall see???

 

S.

SIRT,  your model of the MP54 looks so much more realistic than the MTH goggle-eyed version.  Just curious, does the combine in the new set have the passenger windows come right up to the baggage door like the prototype? 

No, see photo.

Also ordered Lionel F3 stirrup steps for the baggage door area and front. Had to extend and move the incorrect head lamp to the correct end of the baggage car. Paint all the window frames silver.

So many oversights, truly unbelievable. I guess Specialty set means getting everything wrong?

 

I replaced the eye ball port holes on the Lionel's - former RDG's with mylar discs.

Working on the MTH sets on & off between weathering customer items.

 

Just ordered another 2 car set from Justrains to make non-MU's -

LIRR car tips –

 Anyone who wants to make them into coaches to run with the existing LIRR diesels can simply remove the pop out head lamps, cover the square holes and paint the ends and portholes grey.

While doing the modification the yellow seats can be spray painted black or dark blue-grey.

MTH should offer a run of these as coaches (non-mu’s) for the RS-1’s and 3’s.

The corrected versions would look great behind the Lionel C-420’s as well!

 

Steve

 

did you remove the glass to paint the frames ? Did you use a square brush?

Yes, not hard to do. Make a tape mask and spray paint the frames silver.

Use a Q tip soaked with paint thinner to remove any slight overspray.

(16 vertical tape posts in a rectangle shape)

6 screws hold the shell. 2 center ones don't fit properly and are hard to remove, go slow.

More later.

LIRR RailKing's  PREMIERS  ....................

 

 

Been a long time since I posted so maybe a little background is in order. Born in 1956, started in Brooklyn, then early on moved out to Long Island. Always wanted LIRR and Subway models, but what was around? By the time that I could earn money doing a paper delivery route (remember that?), the Silver Leaf and Traction Model cars were long gone. Had to satisfy myself with just standard RR models in HO.

 

Mid 70s found out about Q-Car and Model Traction Supply with their IND R1 and BMT Standards. For what it was worth, finally I could start modeling subways. Shortly afterwards, the explosion of brass subway and LIRR models; I was in heaven. But, if you wanted to run them, and were not gifted with painting, boy could it be expensive. But it was the only game in town.

 

Late 90s, MTH releases their pseudo R42. Now I start thinking, if they ever come out with models that come close to what they really should like, I would be all in. And Lo and Behold, the IRT Redbirds come out. For what one 2 car set of brass HO would go for, unpainted, no interiors, lights, etc; I could get a full 4 car set, I'm in. Besides, a Line of Duty injury has now left me with one eye damaged to the point that without excellent lighting and corrective glasses, I cannot make out details on HO models.

 

Began re-conversing with Joe Frank, (had been in touch with him in the early 80s, after seeing an article about his HO Layout in a magazine). Found out how much work, gratis, he had put in with MTH to begin producing subway cars. Does anyone here really think that MTH would have been as successful producing subway models if they had continued with the toy like items such as their R42? I think not. Besides, I would bet my last dollar that we would all be lamenting how we wish that MTH would put the time and money into scale models. It's amazing that models such as the Qs, ABs, R1s, Lo-Vs, etc. have been produced. While I am a bigger fan of the older equipment, I did not think that these models that had been removed from service long before many on this board could have seen them run in service, would be here. For that, credit MTH and Joe Frank. 

 

Now that we have so many excellent models produced by MTH and Johnny Come Lately Lionel, some of us modelers have begun sniping Joe Frank, blaming him for what has fallen short with the last few models.

 

And the sniping continues. In such a niche market, instead of complimenting Joe Frank for the incredible amount of work he put in with MTH, and what has come to market, we pick apart every little supposed blemish.

 

Now the sniping continues with the LIRR MP-54; look at how much MTH missed or messed up (the silver windows, third rail beam and shoe, etc.) Or perhaps those here that declare these missives are deal breakers, were just looking for an excuse to back out of declarations such as "If they ever come out with ____, I will get them. (chose your model to fill in.) I got the LIRR MTH MP-54 sets; am I a little disappointed that they missed theses details? Yes, but they're not enough to cancel my purchase. If you are looking for perfection, instead of talking the talk, walk the walk, and scratch build them yourself. I can tell you this; with time for my family, work, and my eyesight problems, I am more than satisfied with what I got, I guess as in everything in life, compromise works best.

 

Been following the thread on the SIRT models. Will MTH ever produce them, being that they have produced the similar sized BMT ABs? If you think that we were lucky to have cars such as the ABs, R1s, and others long out of service, produced, you're dreaming if you think that the SIRT cars will be done. They ran the majority of their service only on Staten Island, and very few of them ran on the BMT lines for less than 10 years. 

 

Which now brings me to the push to get Island Model Works to produce the SIRT cars as a shell. I can tell you this, Joe O. does one heck of job for a very reasonable cost of O scale models. And I speak of this from first hand experience. I was the person who initially approached IMW about producing the D-Types. I was told that I needed a minimum of 15-20 to make it happen.

 

Joe O. also told me that as part of the business, he could expect a certain percentage of "committed" people to never follow through, and had to make an allowance for that. Well, we made the minimum order to initiate production. Joe Frank and Steve Davis stepped up and chipped in with advice, photos, dimensions, etc, they were great. IMW produced them, and true to what Joe O. said, some of the reservations never followed through. Of course there was the usual "It's missing 8 rivets on the roof, I thought they were going to be cheaper, yada, yada, yada" All in all though, the D-Type has been one of the biggest sellers for IMW. Did the D-Type Model benefit from the input of Joe Frank and Steve Davis? You bet, but do you think enough people here on this board would just say thanks? Not happening, better to snipe and belittle those that do.

When I mentioned after the D-Types were produced, how some never followed through on their commitments, I was blasted. Better to kill the messenger.  

 

After the D-Types, I pushed for the IRT MUDC, the iconic Manhattan El car. Didn't make the minimum commitment, so no go. Shortly afterwards, a push was made to produce the IRT 1938 World's Fair car shell. Wasn't interested at all in it, but I felt that to keep IMW going in producing subway cars, I would order 2. The point that I am trying to put forth is that in such a small niche market as ours, we have to support each others' projects, otherwise very little will get produced.

 

Finally, let's put things in realistic perspective; many of us like myself, for various reasons, do not have the time, skill, patience, to do what others are able to do. I acknowledge and thank guys like Joe Frank for what has been done in this niche of the hobby, and also thank others on this board who post their work, which serves to inspire me to attempt to replicate.

 

Sincerely, Michael Herer 

That’s nice.

Maybe he should also give the 2 rail forum a try?

That's got to be the longest post ever.

Yeah Greg O, I start loosing $ if I see any posts that long.

Don't have time to read all.

Back at it, customers are waiting.

 

S.

Just an FYI . I am a Long Islander for over 60 years. Your train details and discussion are excellent, but the layout trackwork is a little off. I haven't seen all of the LIRR track but I have seen a great deal from eastern suffolk all the way to the city and there is no grass and weeds in or along the track. There is a super abundant amount of ballast between and alongside the track. I never see even weeds as they must spray weed killer as well. Your layout pics look nice but they are not Long Island's railroad.

Larry S

It's SIRT Staten Island modeling.

Perhaps the 2 rail forum is where you really need to camp.

This is 3 rail in which anything goes.

Modone-a-me, holy moly I made it a few paragraphs down and had to put my life on hold. Went for a drink of water and grabbed a sandwich. Came back with my big boy pants on, my reading glasses and buckled down. Made it almost to the end, one paragraph to go and passed out.........

My first try at adding silver window frames using a silver marking pen. I did this free hand and when I made a mistake I used alcohol on a Q-tip to remove the silver.

Johnny, Looks good. Post a close up

 

If you look real close the windows do not look great, but at normal viewing it looks good and I'm pleased with the results.