"Switch" or "turnout"?

I have called them switches as long as I can remember and I will continue to call them that. "Turnout" is a magazine for firebuffs.

This one has been a point of contention, in the modelling world people tend to use them interchangeably (that gets heated when someone of the true brotherhood says "switches are what toy train people call them, we call them turnouts").

There actually is a difference. "Turnout refers to the entire assembly: the points; frog; guard rails, all the fixed rails, and the machine. The term is primarily used by the Track and Signal Departments. Switch refers to the moveable parts ONLY: the points and machine. The term is primarily used by the Operating Department."  It sounds from the OP post that the railroads use them interchangeably, otherwise the post makes no sense (it uses switches and turnouts in the same sentence, but then for sidings says "switches" to mean the whole thing in my reading).

I could see track people differentiating,where the moving parts are very different than the fixed ones,  but to most of us we don't really care about the points and switch machine, we care about the entire unit, so using it interchangeably really doesn't matter IMO.

The LIRR technical writer was probably a model railroader...

In 12-inch-to-the-foot scale railroading, the only term we ever used was “switches.”

When I worked for the P&LE back in the 60s, we had a Switchtender in the hump tower. He controlled almost all the switches in Gateway Yard. When we called the Switchtender on the radio on second trick, ol’ Jimmy Funkhouser would answer a radio call with, “Switches!”

I switched to calling them turnouts years ago.  Turns out I should have stuck with switches.

Lionel referred to mine as O22  "switches". Look at any catalog since the mid-20th Century. That's good enough for me.

Switch works for me, although I also recognize the term turnout for what it designates in the railroading realm. I generally have no problem understanding what the hobbyist (or real railroader, for that matter) is referring to.

We has “spring switches” on the Frisco.  AT&SF also has signage for spring switches.  No “spring turnouts” anywhere.

I think "turnout" feels more official but it's awkward in a sentence in my opinion. I usually use "switch".

I don't think there is a hard and fast rule.  One of the large railway signaling equipment companies is called "Union Switch and Signal."  In his book, "The Railroad - What it is, What it does" author John Armstrong uses the term "turnouts" but then also writes, "To the operating department of a railroad, a turnout is always (my bold for emphasis) a 'switch,' presumably because the only moving parts are the point (sic) which divert the wheels from one set of rails to the other."

I have run into a few self-styled "expert authorities" mainly from the subset of scale modelers who consider themselves purists who insist that "turnout" is the only correct term.  I think a valid argument can be made that "turnout" refers to the diverging route, the one that "turns out" from the normal route while "switch" refers to the whole assembly.  Either term works for me; I just think people who insist that "turnout" is the only correct term don't have much of a case.

Tomato, tomato.  Potato, potato.

It's reasonably clear what is being referred to in either case.

Steven J. Serenska

only known as switches.    turnouts is model railroad speak

@john f penca jr posted:

only known as switches.   turnouts is model railroad speak

Bingo. Give that man a cigar.

Nobody working for a real railroad ever calls them "turnouts."

Interesting.  For our real railroaders here, what are the generally accepted terms for the routes through the switch?

Wiki says straight - diverging, but I don’t believe everything I read on the internet.

A railroad known as the Providence, Warren & Bristol Railroad ran between Providence, RI and Bristol, RI between the 1850s and 1973.  The image below shows a scan of a letter from1878 written by the railroad's angry superintendent following an incident in which a switch near a bridge was left in the wrong position.

The author seems to refer to the entire apparatus as a "turnout" but the specific points that swivel as the "switch".  This seems to support BigKid's comment above.

I present this as nothing other than additional evidence.

Steven J. Serenska

@Rich Melvin posted:

Bingo. Give that man a cigar.

Nobody working for a real railroad ever calls them "turnouts."

That i interesting, I tend give a lot more credence to people who have worked around the real deal. The citing I gave was from Trains magazine about the turnout being the entire unit and the switch being the movable portion. Sounds like they had distinctions and the folks who actually do the work figured out switch made much more sense (and has less letters, too.

@Serenska very cool document!! I love these parts of history.

Maybe it's a situation where you throw a switch but the locomotive rolls through a turnout.

@CAPPilot posted:

Interesting.  For our real railroaders here, what are the generally accepted terms for the routes through the switch?

Wiki says straight - diverging, but I don’t believe everything I read on the internet.

"Straight" is pretty obvious.

The diverging route is just that - a DIVERGING route. In this case, Wiki is right.

On railroads that use route signals, a signal displaying red over green is called a "Diverging Clear" signal. It tells the crew they are going to take the DIVERGING route at the next SWITCH.

It does NOT say they are going to take the CURVED route at the next TURNOUT. 

@bigkid posted:

That i interesting, I tend give a lot more credence to people who have worked around the real deal. The citing I gave was from Trains magazine about the turnout being the entire unit and the switch being the movable portion. Sounds like they had distinctions and the folks who actually do the work figured out switch made much more sense (and has less letters, too.

This nonsense about calling the entire assembly a "turnout" and only the points of the switch should be called the "switch" is ridiculous. It's another example of people over-complicating what is in reality a very simple thing. If a track crew was instructed to replace a "switch" and they only replaced the points of the switch, they would probably be fired.

A "switch" is the ENTIRE ASSEMBLY from the points to the end of the tracks on the switch, including the frog and guard rails. Done.

FWIW

Out of curiosity I consulted a few of the Operating Rule Books I have handy- NORAC (2011), CSX (2014) and NS (2015).  A little quick research turned up the following information:

"switch" appears in NS Operating Rules 304 times, "switches" 199, "switching" 44 and "switched" 15.    "turnout" appears 10 times and "turnouts" 2.

"switch" appears in CSX Operating Rules 235 times, "switches" 137, "switching" 26 .                    "turnout" appears 2 times and "turnouts" 26.

"switch" appears in NORAC 152 times, "switches" 114 "switching" 17.  No mention of the word "turnout"

During my decades long railroad career, it was my experience that the term "switch" was by far the most commonly used term among railroaders, by both management and labor, across all departments.

I have driven both cars and automobiles.   

Is there a difference?

I agree with Rich, they're called switches. Turnout is a model railroad invented term for switch.

As far as switch position is concerned I go with how this was indicated on classic CTC boards:

N or Normal for straight through route

R or Reverse for diverging route

Click on this link:

https://www.logicrailtech.com/ctc.htm

Ken

I've been calling them Switches since my first layout at 7 years of age.

Now going on 72 and I will continue to do so.

Please allow me direct your attention to Federal Railroad Administration [FRA Docket No. 87–2, Notice. No. 7].  This is a doc from 1998 that describes certain proposed improvements to Amtrak's Northeast Corridor (NEC) between New Haven and Boston.  The improvements have largely been implemented since the notice was first published.  The introduction begins as follows:

Amtrak is currently undertaking a major improvement project on the NEC, with particular emphasis on completion of electrification, installation of concrete ties and high-speed turnouts,

A more technical section later in the notice reads as follows:

(3) 60 mph Turnouts Amtrak had proposed, as an interim measure, to install #26.5 straight-frog turnouts at those crossovers where there is insufficient space to install the #32.7 turnouts needed for diverging moves at 80 mph. Since these #26.5 straight-frog turnouts could be used only for diverging moves at 60 mph, ACSES passive transponder sets approaching such locations would enforce a 60 mph civil speed restriction for all routes through the interlocking where the # 26.5 turnout is located. The 60 mph speed restriction would also be backed up by a site specific instruction and an appropriate reflectorized sign on the distant signal.

The entire notice begins on Page 142 of the PDF.  The quote from Note (3) begins on Page 149.

I personally call them "switches" but to suggest that both terms aren't in general use is ridiculous.

Done.

Steven J. Serenska

BOTH terms are acceptable. It's just that one is more commonly used than the other, depending on the specific application by the road or other entity (model railroaders, for example) using the term.

Normal is whatever the timetable says it is. 

On my H0 layout when I was just a kid, we called ‘em de-railers.

And then there's the British, who call them "points"...🤔

And just to add petrol to the fire......we here in Australia call them "points". I think the English also call them "points", so that probably explains why we did it.

In Australia the moveable rail sections in the "points" are called "tongues" (the tongues of the points were mis-aligned causing the derailment) and determine the path of the train.

Even my Swiss Buco O Gauge train catalogue of 1952 couldn't get it right, and had a bet both ways....."Points and Crossings at the header, then "Switches and Crossovers" in the body paragraph. Go figure!!!

Don't shoot me...I'm just the piano player!!!

Peter......Buco Australia

The Switch,..

My wife regularly calls our son JenJen, and then turns around and calls our daughter Baboy,...

   She's always done it, they know which one she means, everyone in the family knows.   Now our daughter does the same with her daughter and son.    I bought her a sign for the kitchen,..   "Sometimes my mothers voice comes out of my mouth",..   Her kids just laugh, they know which one she means,..

-Mike in NC,

During my railroad career, the term “switch” was pretty much the standard term. We did have railroad publications, mainly maps, that referred to switches on a main track that led to a customer siding as “freight turnouts”.

No big deal really. Terminology differs from railroad to railroad and that is fine.

By the way, a switch has two alignment positions. Normal and Reverse. Normal being the straight, main route and Reverse being the diverging route.  

Tom

This is nearly as heated as the toilet paper direction debate!

I have learned a lot though.

@Krieglok posted:

By the way, a switch has two alignment positions. Normal and Reverse. Normal being the straight, main route and Reverse being the diverging route.  

Can someone explain the "reverse" terminology?

Does it refer to the direction of the ground throw?

In forty years of working on the railroad (PC CR CSX NS) I don't recall anyone calling a switch a turnout. BTW you would M.U. a consist not "lash up" an argument for another time!  Doug

Toilet paper: UNDER, obviously.

Parking spaces: BACK IN, for safety and a quick getaway.

Outlets: GROUND opening facing up.

Baseball caps: BRIM facing forward.

Switches / turnouts:  the jury is still out...

@Rich Melvin posted:

Bingo. Give that man a cigar.

Nobody working for a real railroad ever calls them "turnouts."

Yup, the Penn Central rule book called them “switches”, on the radio it was Switch 16 is aligned proceed with caution. If I ever asked the tower about the switch but called it a turnout. The response would have been colorful at best.

@rplst8 posted:

Can someone explain the "reverse" terminology?

Does it refer to the direction of the ground throw?

”Reverse” is just another term for the diverging route of the switch. It has nothing to do with the ground throw position

And don't confuse a turnout with a crossover, either. We have engineers in our local group and they called them switches, but I tend to think of them as turnouts and crossovers as a whole thing, and the switch as the part of the turnout that actually switches the train. I'm not a train engineer, I run the whole railroad, right down to the construction of the benchwork and scenery. To those who think the word turnout was created by model railroaders, I think the Chief Engineer of the Norfolk and Western Railway from 1935 would have disagreed.

How about "points?"  and a cup of tea!  LOL  I have almost always called SWITCHES...however with so many electrical switches on the layout created confusion among our operating group.  Therefore, I decided to refer to the things that change a train's route TURNOUTS and call the buttons, levers, knobs, etc.--switches.  :-)