THE LCS THREAD - Post LCS Questions, Info and Updates HERE

here are some specific to the iPad app and the layout sketching feature.

 

obviously, i don't have the WiFi module yet, but i have been fooling around with the layout sketching feature.  it is unclear to me how to get it to expand beyond one page.  does it?  does it expand only horizontally or will it expand vertically, too?  is there a size limitation to the sketching feature?  ideally, i would like to be able to draw my entire layout.  is that feasible?

 

ah, discovered that once i saved a sketch, i had another page available to the right (horizontal).  what about vertical??

My wish list/feedback so far:

1) It would be nice if there was a way to select your layout or sections of track so you could move them as one piece. I had to restart my layout a couple of times because I underestimated the placement of some pieces. A possible solution would be a two finger double tap to select a set of connected pieces and using a two finger movement to reposition them.

2) How will accessories be handled? I'm thinking of those which have their own dedicated controllers such as the AEC Reactor and Gantry crane. 

3) Will there be any ability to run MTH DCS locomotives? I imagine this would be a REALLY low priority but would be nice for those of us who have both brands. 

4) Not entirely LCS related but it would be nice if there were a fill in the blank/drop down menu TurboTax type of webpage where new users unfamiliar with digital trains could input what we have/plan to buy and get a single list of what equipment we'll need to convert from conventional to digital. It can be confusing figuring out exactly what gear you need to run all your trains, switches and accessories. 

5) Separate track piece icons for uncoupling and operating tracks. 

The answer to 3 will be conventional only. So far MTH has only allowed one commercial app to be built that has access to the DCS commands.

"It would be nice if there was a way to select your layout or sections of track so you could move them as one piece."

 

agree with this!

 

how big is your layout sketch SeattleSUP?

My layout is 5x10. Currently I have 4 remote switches, 2 uncoupling tracks, 2 operating tracks. Expanding it to 8 switches soon with 1-2 additional uncoupling tracks. It's pretty compact but with the LCS app as is you need to be pretty mindful of where you place things if you want it to end up centered on your screen. SCARM has a feature where you can double click and it will highlight all connected sections of tracks so you can move them as one piece. Very handy. 

Thanks Rich for the "LCS thread"!

 

Forrest, some thoughts to your comments:

You can only scroll horizontally.   The concept we have is to create "Action Centers" that represent areas of the layout being controlled, not necessarily the entire layout.  We have seen folks capture their entire layout on one screen view; and those layouts typically were 12 x 16 at most. 

 

We are considering pan and zoom functionality, but just not right now.  The focus in our development group is to get you the WiFi hardware and add accessory controls.  The awesome video Rudy just released, gives a glimpse into the method we are planning to control accessories.  When we finish the Lionel AMC/ARC products (Crane, Log Loader, Culvert loader/unloader) we will add more generic controls for ElectricRR aftermarket accessory upgrades. 

 

You won't be successful to use the LCS app as a track planning tool, the LCS design is not 0-36 or any other scale.  If you compare a design that creates a fixed geometry, such as a reversing loop in LCS; the count of track segments in LCS won't match what Fastrack actually requires.  In order to give the user as much presentation on the limited real estate we created our own scale in the LCS app.

 

I realize editing the track plan in LCS could be improved, we will listen to feedback from the forumites and folks in our test group, and make improvements.  The best advice I can give for the current editor is - it can be fun, and it is a one time event!  Enjoy the process.

 

Thanks to all for the feedback and questions, more videos will be forthcoming to help explain how to get the most from the LCS app; and how it ties into the Lionel ecosystem.  Our layout related products are coming along nicely and will enhance your train running experience!

 

At 3:45 on the LionelEngineering LCS Intro Video the slide says:

 

Run it from:

  iPad LCS App

  Lionel Remotes

  3rd party Apps

 

Rudy says "New products coming from 3rd party developers"

 

• Does this mean Lionel is going to open up the Legacy spec to others?
• What and when might we see from 3rd parties?

 

 

The possibilities seem they could be unlimited.  Could it be possible to transfer your layout from previously drawn plans from other vendors like RR Track, or other graphical software.

Will you be limited to only Lionel track and switches.  What is the size limitation. What is the layer limitations.  Is the WIFI module available?  I would assume it will have a kill switch.  Is there a tutorial available?  Probably way too soon to know the answers.

Buzz

"Forrest, some thoughts to your comments"

 

thanks, jon.  all very exciting.

Jon, another quick question. Can the new lcs control boxes be used in a modular environment like the new lionel modular set up at the shows. Assuming one uses the proper connectors at both modular table ends. My thought is the boxes would be mounted under the table for switch and or accs. Control on any given module. Then home layouts could be built to be moved so as to not have to lose what one has invested in time and construction. Not to mention track and various lcs components. I plan to design my layout to have the look and portability just like tw designs builds. I love how there layouts look. Roger is top notch down there in dallas! Thanks!

I believe so.   The modules plug together, no screw terminals or remembering what color wire is what!  And you could cut the cable between the plugs as long as you keep the cable wires properly connected.

 

The LCS module interconnect (PDI bus) has: 9VDC @ 1.5A, Common, Serial TX, Serial RX, Allocate signal.  The RX/TX baud rate is 115k.  The 9VDC power supply can be augmented in long chains of LCS modules on larger layouts.  (once you have about ~25 modules, in addition to ~25 IR sensors you need to have more juice!). 

 

 

 

 

 

Jon

 

This is awful (grin).  I am a prewar guy!  Now it looks as though I am going to be pulled into the 21st Century.  This looks like awesome stuff.  My HO club was DCC but using the switches from the handhelds was too difficult so we used conventional toggle switches.  This looks like a winner.  Well done!  I look forward to seeing a Demo at York

 

Al Galli

From the open house where the LCS was demo'd...

 

 

Jon:

 

If you're crunched for resources you should look into doing an internship or co-op with Computer Science department at your local university. I've done this with several small companies and it's a win-win for both parties. You get an affordable (or even free!) resource and the students get valuable job experience that will make them stand out to employers come graduation time. Students - at least the smart ones - are clamoring for internships these days. 

Thanks jon, very usefull info. How far along are the lcs boxes? Amc2 asc2 ect. Are they in production and planed for sale by middle of next year. If this info is company secretive until launch I understand. Thanks again! I used to get frustrated when I could not afford the latest engine or control pieces. Now I am glad I had to wait. Looks as though my train money will be spent on new lcs/legacy components. Can't wait to get these new toys!

The IR sensor track is in production, delivery is hard to call, but I hope within a couple of months.  Don't quote me on that - I don't track production that closely, but I am hopeful...

 

The WiFi is about to enter production.  The ASC2 right behind it.  The AMC2 - I am still designing this one, but I hope to have a design ready by year end.

 

The most important is the WiFi module, IMHO; as the LCS app needs the module.  I am working on an early access program to get a limited supply of WiFi modules available.  More on how to participate within the next 30 days...

Jon, if we have things like fasttrack tmcc switches and the gantry crane with tmcc or any lionel accsessory with tmcc built in. These do not need the asc2 and amc2 correct? They already communicate with the legacy base right. Thew new control boxes basically handle the same functions as there icc counterparts right.motor control, switch control,ect. Just with new terminals. As for the dat and com cables they have been replace correct. now the boxes will use the wifi signal to communicate with the legacy base am I right on this one?

Lionelzwl2012, you basically have it correct in your understanding.  There are some exceptions though, which I will try and explain. 

 

The original BPC and ASC, etc, have very complicated commands (by button presses) from the cab1, which was all that existed when those products were designed.  The Legacy system takes a different approach to control, for example you can get throttle commands on ACC IDs. 

 

As such, the LCS iPad app will not send the correct command sequences to the BPC, ASC, etc.  With the Serial interface (SER2) you will still be able to use the older tech with the cabs, but the iPad may not support them directly.

 

This is why we had to create the ASC2, BPC2, TPC2, AMC2, etc.  The newer Legacy commands make for a nicer user experience, and the LCS iPad will leverage this new capability.  An exception is the switches (TMCC capable); these use a simplified command sequence and are system wide compatible.  

 

I realize that some folks may be quite unhappy that some of the older ICC controls boxes won't be supported under LCS.   The problem goes quite deep, even the ICC controls boxes don't have consistency!  Pick an older BPC (pre Lionel) and the BPC of current design, and they operate differently.  With time, we may be able to support them by configuration on the LCS iPad app.  For now, some limits are going to exist.

 

If I understood Jon correctly at York last year, Legacy commands cannot be sent through the comm port of the base and the chip that supports it. Perhaps the 3rd party apps will be TMCC only or DCC

I actually thought the DCC mention was intersint. I know the AF Legacy engines support DCC, but so far the O-Gauge engines do not

SER2:  A module that converts the PDI bus to RX/TX DB9 @ 9600 baud

- Current booster to enhance the Legacy base output drive levels

- Supports multiple SER2 boards on the PDI bus => multiple DB9's!

- Going forward our system will be more open!

 

The LCS system does not require a Legacy base to operate.  A possible configuration: iPad, WiFi Module, ASC2 module.  Thus a DCC or conventional only layout can leverage switch control with the aforementioned modules, operating from the iPad or toggle switches in a control panel relationship.

After getting to see the LCS at the open house, I am more excited than before.  IMO this will open up some modern tech with our Lionel trains.  Personally I can't wait to start playing with it an seeing how it expands.

 

The sensor tracks for me are rather exciting.  I can see IDing trains as they pass and assigning a sequence of events depending on what train passes.  And as we found out at York, they are directionally sensitive so the sequence could be different depending on the direction of travel.  I'm not sure if this is what is the pipe line but I don't see why things like this couldn't be done with the technology.

 

A truly exciting time to be in the hobby for sure!

Amen marty! I also wonder if in the futcher

Sorry the app on my phone went squirly on me. What I was trying to say was. Maybe on down the line one can load up his buddy's track lcs ipad diagram onto his ipad for control of his layout when visiting and running trains. Or for guys at the club who wish to bring there ipad. assuming all the layouts are set up for the wifi lcs componets. Just a thought.

Drat I picked up a ASC last trip I did to the States. I have not got it out of the box yet!

 

 

 

Keep up all your hard work jon! Lionel hasn't had a man like you since frank p. in the early 50's. I for one want to thank you for all your hard work and love of making our lionel's somthing to be proud to run and show off to our friends and relatives. 50's smifty's the hay day of lionel trains has only just begun!! Quick get dr.zw back to his lab chief o'hara we need more wiz bang stuff!

Thanks Lionelzwl2012, I appreciate your kind words.  I must admit I am a bit challenged by Scrapiron's request of:

 

>>5) More swinging horns and whistling bells

 

I sent the team into deep thought on this one.  Good news! We feel we can deliver the feature by year end

Swinging horns!  I thought MTH had shown a prototype of that in the spring.

"Swinging horns!"

 

I'm sure Lionel is working on Tommy Dorsey Sounds 1.0 .  Very retro.

"More swinging horns and whistling bells"

 

and you wonder how he managed to put 765 on the ground?

I'm 42, just got back into trains this year after a 25 year hiatus and the iPad app is very appealing to me. For starters, it will make it much easier for my children to run the trains. It may not appeal to you but keep in mind people with advanced layouts are a ***REALLY*** small audience. Appealing to such a small audience isn't going to do much for Lionel in the long run. If Lionel wants to survive they need to appeal to a new generation which is something they haven't been doing a very good job of in recent years. 

I'm older than 42,  but it's clear that even now almost everyone has a smart phone,

tablets are not far behind in number, and in the future, >90% of people will be carrying around some sort of wi-fi, bluetooth or whatever enabled smart device.  It would be foolish for Lionel or MTH to ignore that reality.  Even if we older geezers aren't interested.  We're short timers here.

I believe Elliot has 2 tablets...the original 10 commandments are on them from when Moses asked him to hold them while he got a coffee ..( a commentary on Elliot's age)

"Forrest, that's what must have happened with the #765.

I tried to "blow" the bell and swing the whistle.

I didn't pay attention to the matter of the wheels needing to stay on the rails."

 

i hear ya!

 

i also hear ya about vision line features.  i love the swinging bell and whistle steam on my vision line hudson.  wasn't there some noise coming out of york about new vision line stuff coming late this year or early next?  or am i fabricating that?  i am sure no one can say anything if this is true.

from jon earlier in this thread...

 

"The concept we have is to create "Action Centers" that represent areas of the layout being controlled, not necessarily the entire layout.  We have seen folks capture their entire layout on one screen view; and those layouts typically were 12 x 16 at most. "

 

clearly, this technology is not currently targeted to control a large layout from a single iPad.

Now all they need to do is put a micro wireless HD camera in the cab of locomotives so you can do your own cab rides from the safety of your iPad.  Actually I think it would cool if  Amtrak would do that for passengers.

Folks, an upcoming Vision Line loco is where I am spending 90% of my time right now.  Even "Scrapiron Scher" is going to be *very* impressed with the features.  Now back to the LCS discussion....

Oh man, I hope it's Pennsy.  Now back to LCS.

Hmmmmmm this comment is certainly going to get peoples attention.

Perhaps we will finally get a Vision Line Thomas the Tank engine

I am patiently waiting for the LCS hardware and for the next round of iPads.  I think this is going to be great for layout control!  much cleaner and simpler than switch panels.  Although I must admit, some people are master craftsman when it comes to control panels (i'm not one of them, but maybe i'll make a cool holder for the iPad, and as my layout grows perhaps I'll make a few holders at key points). 

all kidding aside, that would be cool!

Jon, another idea for the app. If we can have acc like the gantry crane displayed on our layout. And controlled by the lcs. Can you make a turntable track piece in the track library. then we can maybe click on that piece to enlarge it along with the connected stall and approach tracks.then just by touching up or down buttons or swiping the turn table track icon itself it will move it in either direction. You could also touch the approach track of choice and it would make it line up with that track. We could use the err mini commander hooked up to any turn table for the tmcc and a small transformer deticated to the turntable motor for power.This is just a thought. Could this even be possible to control this way with lcs app? Hope this gives you another idea for the next software upgrade.

One suggestion I would like to make if it is not part of the plan already is a "yard mode speed limit." 

I know you can set speed limits for engines on the Legacy remote, but it would be nice to have a seperate "Yard Mode" specific speed limit.  This would only work on the iPad and only when in the "Yard Mode."  This way, you could set it at a fairly low number and while using the iPad slider bar you could keep an eye on the engine while not worrying about going too fast and smashing into your cars.  Prefferably the "yard mode speed limit" would be set on the ipad and be unique to each engine, that way I could have a fairly low number for my legacy diesels and a higher number for something like my track mobile.  I think this would address one of the only problems I see with the iPad, no tactile feedback like you get from the remote.  However, I think iPad addresses the problem of the legacy remote, hard to remember what switch is what number.  just my 2 cents, happy railroading!

An exception is the switches (TMCC capable); these use a simplified command sequence and are system wide compatible...

Jon or someone, can you tell me if you have the LCS app and fastrack command control switches, does the iPad know what direction the switch is pointing? Through or out? In the videos it appears as if the iPad knows how a switch is aligned. Curious if this is true and or if only true with a certain configuration.

"Jon . . . .
You know I love your features."

Careful there, scrappy. This isn't that kind of forum!

 

Thanks Marty - I hope it does work that way and especially for command switches as that is what I use.

My layout is 18 x 30 ft with roughly 250 ft of track and 26 switches. I use TPC 400's to regulate power and SC-2's to control the switches. I've been using an iPad for several years, so I'm familiar with the various hand gestures used to zoom the display on an app. I've just downloaded the app but have done nothing more than review the info and have watched the YouTube presentations from Lionel and LCCA. So, questions: 1. Is the layout display going to be scaleable, or am I going to create my layout display in segments? 2. Will I be able to enter my engine roster from my CAB-2, or will I have to separately enter it into the LCS? 3. I assume this new system will be compatible with the TPC's and SC-2's. Correct? 4. Given age and mobility factors, York isn't really an option. Will there be an LA area presentation?

"1. Is the layout display going to be scaleable"

 

i think not...

 

"The concept we have is to create "Action Centers" that represent areas of the layout being controlled, not necessarily the entire layout.  We have seen folks capture their entire layout on one screen view; and those layouts typically were 12 x 16 at most. "

 

"I want Lionel's resources directed to where they will benefit operators like myself. "

 

That's the problem. I haven't seen Lionel's financials but I'm willing to wager that they're probably a lot like the financials of other specialty enthusiast companies which is to say not great. Their not too distant past is certainly filled with financial difficulties. Operators like yourself are older and I hate to say but you won't be around forever. At some point Lionel needs to start attracting a new generation of customers. Tapping into baby boomer nostalgia isn't a viable long-term business model.  

 

Personally, I prefer the older style controls though for different reasons. I work in the digital entertainment business so when I get home I like to get away from that sort of stuff which is why I got into trains and also also why I enjoy making wooden kayaks/paddleboards. That said, I love the idea of an iPad app as it would allow my 2 and 6 year old kids - as well as the 15 other kids on our block - to run the trains. This of course allows me to justify to my wife further spending on the trains! "Honey, I need that gantry crane for the kids!"

First I would like to comment that the iPad LCS app is a product that can be upgraded, with a new upgrade controlling accessories due by the time the WiFi module is shipping; and we will improve the functionality as time passes.  We have limited resources, and a good start.  Also, all folks can really do right now with the LCS app is build track plans on the screens, when the WiFi hardware is available, the complexion of the use will change.  Track entry is only a very minor, but necessary, step in using the LCS app.

 

Answers:

1) For now, model sections of the layout, just as you would do in physical control panels.   Simply scroll left to right to cover various sections of your layout that you are actively controlling.  By modeling sections of your layout, your level of detail will be greater, and easier to operate.  Especially when you are controlling accessories.

 

2) The engine roster is pulled in from the Legacy base.  Edits in the iPad LCS app will update the Legacy Base upon request.

 

3) Absolutely.

 

4) I would like to work with the clubs in various metropolitan areas  San Diego has a club that seems like a good fit.  I have not had time to reach out to them, but plan to shortly.

 

 

Relative to resources, we weigh the different projects and the costs.  We have not allocated a lot of resource (cash) to the iPad LCS app.   The growth of the product is there, and like any user interface, is tedious to develop.   Much of the work was done off hours by folks on my team.  The LCS app is not for everybody, and that is OK.  It is a bad assumption to believe that the iPad app is taking away from our loco feature development - simply not the case.

 

Locomotive features are driven by marketing and ROI (tooling costs).  Just as the iPad app is not for everyone, not every loco will please every persons expectation.  A balance must be struck, sounds, smoke, lighting, road names, etc are but part of the complexity we face to bring you products.  We hope you enjoy the final deliverable, and we strive to listen.

 

Folks, this thread is wandering off topic.  I would appreciate that we concentrate on the questions, and suggestions, for the LCS app.  Banging the drum about Locomotive Whistle smoke, etc. belongs on another thread.

 

Thank you.

Jon

 

Please reach out the the Angels Gate club located in LA area.  Matt Jackson can help.

 

Angels Gate     his email  mcjackson at earthlink dot net  replace the at and dot.

 

Great club and a bunch of good guys running Legacy and DCS.

true,

 

Jon - Can you answer if the app knows what direction a switch is pointing?  I know Marty said it looks like it does.  how does it know this and will it be true for only certain types of switches?

 

also, I guess my thought on Yard Mode speed limit didn't seem to gain much traction I thought it was a good idea but put on drawing board for me please

 

Hi Jon,

         Any chance of including a international tester? Hint hint

 

Regards

Nick

Simply scroll left to right to cover various sections of your layout that you are actively controlling.  By modeling sections of your layout, your level of detail will be greater, and easier to operate. 

 

I've not played around with the app to find the scroll function.  Pointer, please.  I have played with the app a bit since my last posting and really haven't figured out how to enter other than a fairly small segment.  Unless the segments are somehow joined, I think there might be a problem in controlling more than a single consist at a time.

 

Would the developers consider adding a pinch function to expand and contract the layout diagram?

 

I plan to give Matt Jackson (thanks for that contact) after I've had the opportunity to play with the app a bit more.

jrmertz - the LCS App will update the switch position when is "sees" a TMCC switch command.  If the turnout is moved manually, the LCS App will not know about the state change.

 

Carl - to scroll simply swipe the operating screen (not in edit mode) to the left.  A new blank page is presented to edit and build a new layout section.  After each page is saved, a new blank page appears to add to the scroll view list.

 

The scrolling is built into the iPad, just like adding a second screen for the apps themselves.

 

Fred, The switch does not give feedback to the LCS app; so it is not possible to sync the physical switch to the app.   However if a switch changes state via a command from a cab or another iPad, the LCS app can update accordingly.

 

 

Can it remember that position when powered down for the evening.  Example.  I have 2 switches 1 through the other thrown at the end of day 1.  When I relaunch the next morning will it know this?

 

I guess also if you have a session where the iPad isn't used, how does it "sync up" with the switch positions?

Could the iPad know a default switch position, this position would be defined by the user when they build their track plan.  All of these default switch positions would then create one long route.  When you power up your iPad the user could fire the "Default Switch Position" route, this would then artificially "sync" the iPad switches with the layout.

 

I'm pretty sure they cacn be accomplished now with a route on the CAB2, but might be easier to define in the LCS app (if possible).

 

Yep, I agree that could be a problem, which is why I think this Route should not fire automatically but fire when the user asks it too.  Also, this is not a new problem the LCS introduces, but just a fact of remote switches and routes (something might be on top of switch now and we could fire a route).

 

I think for really large layouts this would not be ideal.  For smaller and medium layouts, I think this would work very well.  This would just become part of my start up routine when powering up the layout, then if someone uses my iPad they should know all the directions of the switches.  I think even if the LCS doesn't make this route an easy add on, I will consider just building this route my own to accomplish the same goal. I would build this route right now, but sadly my layout has just been packed up as I am moving in the next couple of weeks

Regardless, it certainly is fun thinking of all the good, bad, and uglies.

Marty - I completely agree!!!

for my fulltime job I test software and help roll it out.  Often times during rollouts we run into unique scenarios that we need to find a cost effective way to solve.  Are they bullet proof? Nope they definitely are not, but they accopmlish the task effectively as long as you are aware of the nuiances.  This "Default Route" idea falls into this category in my opinion

 

My more hopefully suggestion is to have a yard mode speed limit.  I think that would be super useful, but I can't wait to get the hardware and test out the app!

Are the SC-2's intelligent enough to recall switch position? I suspect they aren't, but if they were, this might solve the switch position problem on initial startup. I suspect, though, that switches will be assumed to be in the open position unless the command base retains actual position instead of just having switch command setting sequences.

jon, once again, thanks for your active participation on this forum!  

The App, unless closed and released from memory (home button 2x, press the "X") will retain the last state of the switches.  A button to reset to a default route is possible.  Just remember, there is no feedback, thus a non-derailing switch operation will toss it out of sync again.  The ASC2 will be able to report the switch position, and it can remember and report status.

 

I am thinking we could make a new Sensing module device that monitors the switch and reports the state, much like the Lamps on the Fastrack switch change color depending on the position, the info is there to query.  Folks that want the real time feedback can have an option for detection in this way.

 

 

The Yard mode has a built in speed limit by default.

 

 

thanks for the feedback Jon!!!

 

Glad to hear about the yardmode speedlimit that will be great.

 

Sort of a bummer the command control switches won't give feedback to the app out of the box.  The best thing about them is not needing an ASC2 in my opinion.  But sounds cool that he app will remember things!  A new sensing module would be great, but i'm guessing that would involve wiring like an SC2?  In that case I think on my small layout I'd opt for a route and less wire mess.  A big layout would be a different story

Switch settings being retained by the app after initial setup should resolve the issue of a need to sense position at the switch level. If possible, I think it would be nice if the Legacy base could capture setting changes made using the CAB-2, and relay them to the app. I'd still like to see a layout expand/contract function using a pinch hand gesture which is found in a number of other apps. As an aside, I was a senior programmer/analyst for around thirty years prior to my retirement. But, that experience was in mid-range computers, so I've no background in coding apps. Still have good analyst skills, though.

ironic same name lcs was used by trains of america way way back! just saying is all.

 

soo

JZ-I think the pinch would lead to the ability of having a complete diagram instead of a segmented one. This would make the LCS/app control process more attractive-especially for use on larger layouts.

Can someone clarify something for me from the new catalog (2013 fall).

I realize to make this app work you need the wifi module. I also see a cable with a db9 end on it and power supply. Is that cable needed to make the LCS app talk to the legacy base?  Or will the LCS app talk to the legacy base with just having the wifi module?

Yes, one LCS Power supply and DB9 cable is required for every LCS installation.

Rudy

Originally Posted by Railsounds:
        Yes, one LCS Power supply and DB9 cable is required for every LCS installation.
Rudy

Thanks for the info Rudy!  That was my assumption.

 

Hello jon, I currently run DCS and Legacy together. Will the new software work ok in that environment? I also use all Fastrack Command controlled turnouts and wyes. Will these still work with the new software? I notices there were no track sections for wyes in the app ... Thanks for any information..

 

Rick

I am confuse about LCS and have a lot of questions, some of them maybe stupids; my layout is 24'x52' and currently run a mix of DSC PS2, PS3 TMCC, Legacy and Vision line also about 30 Z-Stuff switches plus about 20 twin coil switch machines,of course Iam 100% command control guy, one of my questions is: Will all these locomotives, switches and about 30 accesories work with the new software? and how in the world connect or interface them with the software or LCS? Any tutorial in the future about how to use LCS?

I watched the demo at the open house and liked the way the sensor plus lcs was able to play back a routine.  I didn't get a chance to ask about this aspect.  Is the routine a recorded set of commands that were set up in the CAB-2 and then called up/played back by the lcs software or was the routine "built" using the lcs software?  I don't see a macro record function on the current app and I can't find any documentation on the CAB2 side to "name" a stored program the way you would a route?

 

BTW, I suspect a zoom function will just open another can of worms.  it is very, very, very easy to accidentally trigger events on a touch screen that you did't really intend to, especially if that screen has a lot of potential buttons scattered around on it.  It took a little getting used to but I've come to appreciate the swipe to the next screen aspect.  If you could easily incorporate a jump to control panel section on the bottom of the screen (like the photo thumbnails in the photo album app) or a list of "screen" names on the left or right side it could make navigating a larger layout easier.

Chuck, the SensorTrack record/playback functionality is entirely contained within the track itself. The LCS App and WiFi module aren't required to use this feature.

 

So the "sensor" is way more than a sensor.  It's a programable storage unit?  what are the limitations in terms of stored commands and how flexible is the programming sequence?  Can it handle if then else conditions, e.g east bound loco 7 throws switch to through and accelerates to speed x while west bound 7 decelerates and engine 10 maintains current speed?

Yes, The LCS SensorTrack is both a sensor as well as a preset & user programmable storage unit. Up to 250 time-stamped commands are stored in a recording. And you can create two different recordings--one when your engine or train passes from left-to-right, the other when moving right-to-left.

 

It won't do the logical conditionals you describe. The recorded commands are sent to specifically to the locomotive which triggers playback by crossing that SensorTrack. However, you can include commands for switches and accessories within each recording. Finally, you can set your custom sequence to play ONLY when that specific engine passes. Then you could automatically shunt a passenger train into a station siding each time it approaches, yet keep all other trains on the main line.

 

Great questions. You're helping get me ready for York!

-Rudy

Chuck, Rudy is correct that logical operations are not part of the programming; your scenario is plausible.

 

1) Record loco 7 eastbound, throw a switch, accelerate to speed X.

 

2) Record loco 7 westbound, decelerate to speed X.

 

Loco 10 will not be affected by the recordings for loco 7, maintaining current speed.

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks Rudy, Jon.  I look forward to getting the WiFi interface (the person doing the demo actually had me connect to the one at the open house, the iPad saw it with no problems) and I'm playing around with software and getting comfortable "sketching" areas that would be nice to have advanced control.

 

If you can work in a jump scroll or floating "section" index it would definitely make multi screen navigation easier.

Tell us more.....

I expect there are a number of software developers that would be happy to provide such a capability.  However that would require access and use of the Legacy command structure.  Is Lionel considering publishing the Legacy Command specification for third party hardware and software developer use?

 

Fred

 

Yes. 

When you say 250 time stamped commands, is that each speed step made?  IE from slow to restricted might be 50 speed steps.  Is that 50 of the 250 or is it considered 1 command.  Also same with using brake or boost. 

 

Or even holding down a whistle for a set amount of time?  Is that one command or multiple as you quill a whistle.

Ok, So I know that I need the LCS WiFi Module and the LCS Power Supply with DB9 Cable...but what about this SER2?  Since I have a number of ASCs in my layout, it sounds like I will need an SER2.  What is an SER2?  Is that another piece of hardware?  I don't see it specifically referred to in the Lionel catalog.

 

I may have missed the definition of this so I'm sure someone can set me straight!

Sorry it did not make the catalog...   The SER2 converts the new Hi-Speed PDI bus to the low speed DB-9 @ 9600 baud.  To interface to the ASC's you will need the SER2.

 

 

If you are looking for some ideas... how about a real fire in the firebox!

 

That would be cool.  

Only if I could also buy a real Fire Car to put out the blaze

What improvements can we expect as a result of the new high speed data bus? 

 

Each individual command must be stored and time stamped in order for the locomotive to behave the same way during playback as when the recording was made. So you're right, a given action, like a gradual slow-down, would require multiple commands to store (out of the 250 total).

Thanks.  I suspected as much but wanted to be sure.

 

Also, the sensor track is said to be "Directionally Sensitive" meaning a recorded sequence left to right can be different than right to left.

 

Is it truly dependent on the direction of travel regardless of if the locomotive is in forward or reverse?  Or does the locomotive need to pass over the sensor in the forward direction regardless if the travel is left to right or right to left to operate properly.

 

Does that make sense?

 

Yes, I understand what you're getting at. The forward/reverse state of the locomotive does not matter. If the train is heading "east-bound" or "left to right" SensorTrack will trigger the east-bound event, regardless of which way that locomotive's headlight happens to be facing.

 

 

  Cool.

It just occured to me that anyone who controls their switches and accessories with TMCC devices on the data cable will need the LCS SER2 module in addition to the WIFI module before they can get the LCS app to work. The WIFI module is available for ordering, however, the SER2 is not even listed. Will the SER2 device be relealesed at the same time as the WIFI module?

 

Yes, the SER2 will be available in a similar time-frame as the LCS WiFi. 

Hello All,

 

In anticipation of the upcoming York show, we've revised and expanded the LCS material presented on the Lionel website. Point your browser at http://www.lionel.com/lcs for all the latest details. And thanks for your continued interest!

 

Rudy

I like the idea that we will be able to finally write software to control not just TMCC but Legacy as well.  That sounds great!

 

I'm looking forward to the new iPad app operation of the layout..however I do find the layout user interface on the pad a bit clunky. Having to rotate the tracks to allow snap and not being able to move a block around. I always found RRTrack to be a bit time consuming for a onetime purpose but the iPad user interface tops that. Kind of like someone said...extra work to use the pad for stuff we do easier without it. I do however look forward to being able to operate switches without having to remember which number switch is where. This advantage is not lost on me. I'm in...just sayin'. 

 

Did Lionel get this wrong again? The LCS Sample Diagram explains TrackLink as "This 455khz radio frequency command control switch is carried on the track"   According to Jim Rohde (Lionel Sr. Electronics Engineer) who I've been corresponding with "For the Command Base the source is the earth ground and the return is the U terminal on the Base that is connected to the outside rail.  This means that the earth ground is acting as the transmitting antenna for the Base.  This also explains why putting earth ground wires on the layout helps.  The idea that the earth ground is the signal source is what normally confuses most people.  For most radios the earth ground is the return."  It seems that Lionel information keeps repeating the misinformation that the track carries the TMCC signal.

Thanks for the correction, Chris. I'll think about how I could re-word the description to be more technically precise, yet still convey the distinction to less technical readers between the new wired LCS system and the existing wireless TMCC command infrastructure, aka TrackLink.

Rudy.

 

I noticed odd wording with the phrase "like an Apple iPad™" used several times. Since the app is IOS only? Shouldn't it say i the wifi connects to an iPad, no like needed. Unless you are hinting at an android app or that LCS will hook to your PC wirelessly

Rudy,

 

A couple of small questions:

• Is TrackLink a new designation? Just curious, I don't ever remember seeing it before.
• How do you get to the LCS info page without the direct link? I can't find it.

"yet still convey the distinction to less technical readers between the new wired LCS system and the existing wireless TMCC command infrastructure, aka TrackLink." 

 

I see what you mean. One signal goes through the air and one goes through the wired bus. Could be confusing.

 

Lastly....do you think we could expect to see any 3rd party announcements at York? 

 

Chris....maybe that's a question for the Legacy Breakfast.

I think the Legacy Breakfast will be one the places to learn all about LCS from the experts.

"TrackLink" is not a new term, although I'm not sure how often it's been used in customer-facing situations (e.g. user manuals, marketing literature, etc.).

Right now, I think the direct link www.lionel.com/lcs is the best way to get there. And I'll leave any third party York announcements to the third parties :-)

The new info on the Lionel site is a welcome addition, I have a better understanding of what I will be able to do with LCS.

 

Rudy, a quick question on the sensor track. Can a recording of an engine be done with any engine regardless of model type or brand. or does the engine need to be a legacy engine  with the ir sensor?

It needs to be a Legacy with a sensor.

Thanks, Marty. Yes, only a locomotive with the I/R transmitter will work with SensorTrack. 

Is this how the software was meant to work?

 

Screen shots from LCS app:

 

Cross over

Yard:

East End of layout:

Meanwhile, this is a logical block wiring diagram:

And this is an actual diagram of the layout (which only exists on paper at this point in time)

This software was intended to build a "virtual" control panel to control trains/layout?

 

You only "draw" things that require or you desire to control?

 

You "jump" from screen to screen by using the iPad "finger swipe" technique?

 

Is there any way that a set of thumbnails for the "other" screens, aka the ones you aren't looking at can be included (like on the photo album app) or a way to add "buttons" that would allow a direct transfer from the screen you are looking at to one of the other screens?

 

The track sensor can only read the IR signal from the Legacy locomotives?  Is there any thought to having active sensors like a bar code reader that would allow you to read anything that was running on the track.  These wouldn't have to have the programming capabilities that the one demo'd at the open house.  One issue I see with the current sensor is that it only works when the loco goes over it.  If you have a long train backing up on long section of track the sensor won't engage until the loco hits it?  It might be useful to know where the entire train is instead of just the loco?

 

Chuck

 

I am hoping they offer boxcars with sensors that can be added to an\ train to make up for engines that don't have the sensors.

That would be great.  Or make a basic sensor snap on to place under any car.  Two wires for power and just enough smarts for an ID number/tag?

One of the advantages of using an SC2 over an ASC to control accessories is that the SC2 retains the on/off setting of the device it is controlling when powered off. How will the new ASC-2 work? 

Don, the ASC also holds the last settings.

Mine don't...  They are configured for all accessories and if I hit Aux2, the accessory turns on and stays on. If I power down the layout, I have to hit Aux2 again to turn the accessory back on.  Is there a way to configure the ASC so that it retains its settings when powered down?  

I don't see that behavior either.  I looked in the manual and I don't see anything about maintaining the settings through power cycles.

 

Just to be clear - your's don't hold the settings either?

Nope, at least in my test it didn't.  I'm not currently using them, but I just connected one to see how it acted.

Sorry guys. I was thinking of the BPC.

Totally different animal.  I believe the BPC has latching relays.

The BPC does not have latching relays.  The software would need to save the settings in the processor non-volatile storage, if the feature is supported.  I have not observed the BPC operating this way, but I will double check so the BPC2 works the same way.  

I believe that android and iPhone users will be a happier bunch.

Will the new LEGACY IOS APP be able to store more than 99 Engines..?...Thanks..

No, that's a function of the Legacy system, and that doesn't change with the introduction of the LCS.

So what would you guys like to see in an iPad app based on LCS technology that Lionel is not planning (so far as we know) to address in their app? What sorts of things have you been wanting to do that the sensor track technology could enable?

 

Why do I ask?  I'm an iPad software developer (and not a Lionel employee), and I think it would be fun to maybe turn some of your great ideas into reality. 

 

//Scott

one thing I would like to see, actually has nothing to do with Legacy, but would love the app to keep an inventory of all my freight cars.  As well as keeping an inventory I would like it too keep track of pick up and destination places for my cars (user defined), and randomly build a consist and assign destinations for that consist.  I love using my small layout to just build random trains and then take those cars to their destinations.  I would love if my iPad could decide what my orders are for building a train.  It would also help me use more of my rolling stock.

 

So Scott, if you could make this, happen, that would be awesome!  I would be willing ot help make a design doc and screen shots and requirements.  Sadly, I can't do any of the development

Well, let's take a closer look.  I have a basic idea of what you're after. If you'd like to flesh it out a bit more, just send an email to the address in my profile. 

I have been toying with this idea for a while.  I will work to put it on "paper" with some rules/requirements my vision and share with you via email.  It will be a fun project for me regardless of the outcome

MartyE suggested that I repost the following in this thread:

 

Wonder if there is any chance of an enhancement that would retain the information as to what is on the stub.  Would be a very helpful feature for those with hidden track for storage, etc.  Perhaps an icon next to the stub that could be touched causing a table  to pop up showing what is currently residing on the stub with last in at the top and first in at the bottom.  Also, a summary table showing all the layout stubs with their respective equipment.  Seems to me this type of feature could lead to having dozens of sensor tracks on a layout vs a few.

 

We're beta testing the LCS WiFi Interface right now. Works very nicely with the iPad (not available for iPhone yet). Android users can use BlueTrain 2.0 (which works great) for engine/MU control only, but there are no layout features (it wasn't designed around that) with better range than the BlueTooth interface. The system doesn't interfere with the regular TMCC, Legacy or DCS remotes, so we can all still operate trains irresponsibly like before.

 

The sensor track is a nice idea, but I'd rather see the ability to interface with other types of sensors such as Infrared or current-sensing.

 

Matt

 

I'm glad they got you testing the LCS.  When Jon was looking for clubs, yours was one of the first I thought of.

 

I'm thinking we are only seeing the tip of the ice berg with the sensor track.  You notice Jon did say "engines and cars" could be read and determine the direction of travel in another thread so it looks like more is in works.

I agree. The first thing that hit me is that the unit has a buss, so I can see a lot of other items becoming available down the road. What's going to be interesting is seeing how/if the unit integrates with third-party hardware.

Hope everyone is getting ready for a great Thanksgiving. Just wanted to post a quick note that the lionel.com/lcs site has a few updates. In particular, a searchable PDF listing locomotives compatible with SensorTrack can be found on at http://www.lionel.com/lcs/LCSproducts/SensorTrack/ . Just click the "Click HERE for a list of compatible locomotives" and the PDF will load.

 

Cheers,

Rudy

 

Rudy,

 

Thanks for posting link to the compatible locomotives to sensor track.

 

I just noticed the LCS Sensor Track manual is now up on the Lionel Site.

 

http://www.lionel.com/media/se...50LCSSensorTrack.pdf

 

It lists what "Actions" you can program the track for along with how to create

complex recording.

 

The WiFi module manual is still not up. 

 

Excuse the lack of a Link.  My browser at work doesn't work with that function. 

 

The actions are pretty cool and work well depending on the placement of the track.  The recording function I found to be fairly accurate as long as the engine enters the sensor track at the same speed it entered when the recording was initiated.

 

 At the LUG meeting my Texas Class traveled back and forth for almost 20 minutes without missing a beat.

Can't download it...says it's unavailable.

Yes, it's been removed. It was a draft document that was inadvertently posted. There's  additional recording functionality that will be in the final product which is missing from the draft manual. I'm working a new video to describe the SensorTrack in detail. Stay tuned!

Ahhhh!  That explains all the typos.

I was getting ready to pre-order the WiFi, LCS sensor track, power supply, and cable and then realized that there is nowhere to order the SER2. Since I still have DCS attached to the Legacy I gotta have the SER2 to run both together? Am I correct in this? When does the SER2 release?

Hi Jeff,

 

Ironically, the SER2 will probably be the first item in stock.  It was left out of the catalog because of miscommunication on our end.   I will look in into how to get the part number available/resolved so it can be ordered.  And yes, you will need one to maintain DCS connectivity. 

 

I can get you a sample SER2 if we can't get the ordering resolved.  Since I only have one spare SER2, you are the lucky one!

 

jon

Awesome! Thank you. I am really looking forward to the WiFi. Any news on the PC side for apps?

I know I have read about people wanting sensors in Boxcars and other such cars and I agree that would be great.

 

but my question is, what about in a Caboose?  They already usually have power pickups for lights and plenty of room for one thing.  And additionally, an engine lets you know where you train begins, a caboose could trigger actions after a train has ended.  This would also be great on cars with EOT devices (vision tank car, cattle sounds car).

 

just a thought...

That's a good idea, the caboose is a natural place for the sensor.

Great Idea! And it even makes sense that I can understand...

 

For those that money is not an issue, how about placing the sensors all of the cars so you could tell what cars were located in a particular consist? I am not sure of the number of cars/engines that could be stored but is a thought.

If a way to manually program the necessary data into the car to provide the specific information of road name, car type, road number etc.

 

Sorry if I didn't read back thru all of the previous posts if this was already stated...

I think I had thrown in (a while back) the idea of using passive RFID tags like Walmart, etc puts in merchandise to detect shoplifting. They are cheap and bendable to a certain degree, lending themselves to placement into almost any kind of freight or passenger car.  

 

The current SensorTrack, of course, is infrared based, so what I'm suggesting implies different hardware, i.e. "SensorTrack-RF" as opposed to the current "SensorTrack-IR" that Lionel will be delivering Real Soon Now.

 

//Scott

Sounds like a good 3rd party development project.  Now that the interface to the Legacy has been documented, you could use the RFID logic to communicate to the Legacy base.

 

Any update on availability of the Wi Fi Module and the SER2 module?

 

I can't seem to find either on the Lionel Shipping schedule but I may not have searched for the right thing....

Heard the LCS system is going to be delayed, possibly at least a another year or more. Any truth to this or is it still expected in the next couple months?

Trying to avoid believing unnecessarily or unfounded rumors.

The new iPad LCS app is now available for downloading.  It incorporates much of what I'd hoped for, such as switches and curves with 22.5 degree curvature.  Love the two-finger rotation for pieces.  The loco roster is upgraded, too.

 

My only wish now:  In editing track, I wish I could move a connected section of tracks as a unit.  It's hard to get all the layout right when first placing them.  But it's a minor complaint.  Lionel is doing great work with this LCS app!

   Bob A.

Just downloaded the upgrade. Looks good so far. Looking forward to getting the WiFi module so I can try it out. 

 

Nick

In editing a new track configuration with the new upgrade, two suggestions:

 

1. Be sure to save your work after every 5 minutes or so.  I had the app quit several times, losing some work since the last save;

 

2. Don't place the track down to the lowest part of the editing display screen, because it will be partly covered up with the control panel at the bottom of the screen when you then go into operational mode.

   Bob A.

We're beta testing the Wifi Module and it works great, both with the iPad LCS App and Bob Krivacic's "Bluetrain" Android App (TMCC Cab1 replacement only). Have not tested the Ser2 module yet as I'm still reviewing the documentation. I don't know the release date, but my gut tells me that it's close as the system's performance is good, the hardware is nicely done, the user documentation looks good, and the LCS app has the look of a finished product. I'm hoping that an Android version of the LCS app will be released soon to take full advantage of Legacy.

 

The Bluetrain app now uses WiFi which greatly extends the operating range of the cell phone/tablet

Bill, I can't speak to expected delivery dates, but I can concur with Matt that the WiFi module seems pretty rock solid. We're deep in development of a couple of iPhone/iPad apps that exercise it pretty well, and I've been really pleased with it so far.

 

//Scott

We are looking forward to putting the system through its paces with our club.

Yep, can't wait to get my hands on some of the components and see how they work together.

 

I've been waiting for some info on how to hook up Lionel's new LCS  WiFi system.  As mentioned in OGR run #270 go to www.lionel.com/lcs/FAQ. I found most of my questions answered here along with a layout diagram, showing modules needed and how to hook up this system.

 

Jack  

Time for some updates - shipping schedule updates?

Beware Lionel still has the older ASC units in stock. I accidentally ordered four, the dealer doesn't stock them, they get them from Lionel when you order.  

Will the older ASC units with an SEC2 unit work the same as a ASC2 unit?  

Also, what is the status of SC-2?  One dealer suggests they will be available in May.

I bought an Ipad so I could run the LCS app, while it is interesting there needs to be a lot more switches and track added to it.  I have  been able to set up "approximations" of different section of my layout.  Is the software holding up shipping of the new hardware?

Dan

Which iPad and OS are you using?