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Dear Train Folks:

There has been a lot of discussion and concern as to whether the factory closings in China of late are affecting our planning or production. The answer is, always, but we are prepared. That's my job, to make sure we can weather the unexpected storms.

We do most of our manufacturing with Korean owned factories in Eastern China and Korea and one of our suppliers is run by a Chinese American. They have the expertice to make Brass and Aluminum models, but they are a bit expensive. And if you squeeze them too much for lower prices they will go out of business. So it takes some give and take to keep them solvent and in good fincial condtion.

That means sometimes you have to raise your prices to ensure the project gets done.... Period... We have been accused of this, but it is necessary.

We usually have 4 or more sources for our models and never load up one of them with too much or we risk what others importers are experiencing right now (too many eggs in one basket). You never know when there will be a decision to close a factory, you just have to be prepared. This has been going on since we started Sunset Models in 1974.

For example, in 1992-94 Williams was making the PRR S-2 Turbine with a small Korean factory called Hyodong. The factory was slow in producing and Big L cataloged the same engine from their factory in Korea, Samhongsa (used to be Sunset Models main supplier, then Lionel, then MTH, then out of business, resurfaced as TOP TRAIN, now closed).

Back to Hyodong... Williams let their LC expire since Hyodong was late in delivering and the small factory went bankrupt. Williams took their production to China at that point. The bank put locks on the factory door in Korea and put up the material for sale in Korea.

My father's builder contacted us and said he could offer a good price to the bank, get the materials and make the project for us. So we agreed and 3rd Rail was born... We finished the PRR S-2 Turbine, upgraded the gearbox, motor and sound system. The model was a hit and we continued to build 3 Rail models with this new builder for another 5 years. PRR I-1 and others.

Why do they go out of business so often? Mismanagement of funds, greed, dishonesty, poor planning, all of these contribute to their demise. We offer them stability, but in return we want stable prices and a flow of pruduct as well. It doesn't last long, they usually self distruct with in 5 years and we have to move on to another supplier. It has been this way since we started.

The big suppliers in China are a new phenomenon. They are well managed, lots of burocracy, some are direct to distributors like Bachmann of Kadarr. But when they fall, they take many other companies with them, that were dependent on their exellent engineering, low prices and easy financing. It never lasts very long. Labor prices are dictated by Gov here, and go up 25% a year. That is not sustainable. Most new laws are pro labor and anti business. So the factories at some point see no reason to continue and close. I see this trend continuing. One of our Korean builders is setting up in Manila. Now that is exciting news.

So every time I come to Korea and China, I talk to new suppliers, learn what is happening around us, keep my ears and eyes open for trouble and act accordingly.

We have many projects planned for the future. The schedules are a little uncertain. But what is certain, is that we will be around to produce these and service you in your hobby for many years to come.

Thanks for all your wonderful support over the years.

P.S. If you want to try your hand at importing model trains, don't send cash...

Regards,

Scott Mann
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Scott,
Thanks for all that info, it's nice to know you're on top of things.

Question, do the factory workers end up going/moving from one small company to another? The contractors I dealt with when I worked for the government often did that. Whenever one contractor lost a contract the employees would just move over to the contract winner the next week.

Wasn't the old term for machinists that would move around within the machine shop system - "Jobbers"?
quote:
Originally posted by cbojanower:
I guess I always wonder how does it being a communist govt work with wages and such. You mention some workers are paid more, does the govt set the wages? do they have unions? Does the govt take a big chunk of the wages? And who actually owns the factories


Think of the US from the 1870 - 1910. There are lots of differences but the main one is the gov't will side with workers over business; kinda like Teddy Roosevelt did. So the government is the union. Their accounting system isn't, so how much people are paid and taxes depend on who is doing the counting at any given time and place.

Richard
John "Pecos River Brass" Smith's articles on importing from Korea in the earliest issues of OST -- which are conveniently online -- are an excellent tutorial on the hazards and "fun" of importing, in his case from Korea, brass models. [ I also think they're the most interesting articles that have ever appeared in OST, but that's just my opinion.]

Best, SZ

Edited to add: If any of you are wondering what "LC" in the initial post stands for, it's "Letter of Credit". Think of it as a sort of escrow account, the money for the builder being held by a bank until [ valid ] shipping documents are provided showing "what's ordered" shipped. Items shipped from the US for export are sometimes on an L/C too.
We used to use the LCs exclusively to protect ourselves, but now since the banking disaster banks won't allow anyone over there to borrow against LCs to fund projects, so now the importer has to actually wire money in advance of a project. This can be very hazardous. This is another reason why I keep such a close eye on my builders, to make sure the money I give them is actually going into production.

One funny story: On my first trip to Korea with Dad in 1996, we made a surpise visit to see one of the small builders that was making some HO models for us. Mort had openned the LC 4 months prior and progress was seemingly slow. We arrived, and the builder was in his downstairs office, with his feet on the desk smoking a cigarrette. When we walked in he seemed very surprised and not smiling much at all. He knew exactly why we were there and jumped up to greet us. After some small talk he took us upstairs, and there was the evidence. He had been borrowing on our LC to fund a project for Precision Scale Company. He thought he could just quickly get it out of the way and collect on PSC before finishing our project. Later he was caught drunk driving and threatened an officer and went to Jail. His business was transferred to his sister in law and she ran it in the basement of her apartment building for 10 years with the original man as the chief engineer. They made the best O Scale models for us... But eventually thier loans were called and they quickly went out of business. And the guy we started with, went back and formed a small business again. He again made many great models for us, but we have to watch him like a hawk. The GN M-2 was the last one and it took him almost 2 year to produce it due to the bank and financing problems. I should write a book about it...

Scott
As the owner of three engines from Sunset 3rd Rail I feel extremely fortunate that Scott has been able to import such a wide variety of products from China and Korea given the amount of anxiety and intrigue that goes on there. From my perspective Scott has a stomach made of cast iron and the determination of a bulldog. Its now quite obvious to me, and I hope those who contribute to this forum, the amount of work and endless trips it takes to the Far East to produce any of these models.

Based on Scott's stories from the Far East I think 3rd Rail models are an absolute bargain for us here in the USA. Importing brass models from Japan 30+ years ago was an absolute breeze compared to what apparently goes on today half way around the world. Gone are the days of Westside Models, US Hobbies, KTM, United, and many others who manufactured fabulous looking models for far less money and far less hassel.

I promise I will never complain about product delays again - period.

Bravo Scott bravo!
Far less money? My first brass locomotive was a Max Gray MT-4. It cost $229 in 1962, and coincidentally my airplane cost $1300 that same year. I believe an MT-4 is worth maybe $1200 today - a factor of six.

My airplane is worth thirty grand today - same one - and I think salaries are up by a factor of ten. As far as O Scale brass is concerned, we have it as good as it has ever been.

Opinion, mostly.
bob2,
I could have bought a Piper Tri-Pacer in 1972 for the same as I paid for my 1970 Opel GT, $3600 (My dad said I could have bought 2 Ford F-150s for the same price!)!

Minimum wage in 1962 - $1.10

Minimum wage in 1973 - $1.60

Minimum wage in 2011 - $7.25

Except for what Kohs engines are going for these days, most of what I see seems reasonable and the quality of the detailed parts seems way better.

I think the thing about communist China is that their main thing was making sure everyone was treated fairly the same. I always thought that's what it was all about, everyone being on the same level (for the worker bees anyway). In practice we all have seen that ain't so, but it does seem the GOV tries to keep the businesses honest and equal when it comes to dealing with employees and they will come down hard when they find someone who isn't playing the game correctly.
Thank You Scott, as you know I along with many others love to speculate about to cost of building toy trains and where is the best place to have that work done. But, the hard fact is that most of us only know what we read and hear from the news media. Well, it's nice for a change to get some inside information on the problems you face on a daily basses.

All I can say is thank you and please keep up the good work bringing us some of the finest toy train products on the market. Cool



Good Thread Thanks
quote:
...what surprises me is how little understanding most folks have about Asia and China in particular.

How right you are, Dave! I spent a number of years in Asia myself--virtually all countries except China (not open to us at the time)--and I am continually amazed at how little most Americans, in particular, know or understand about those various cultures and their people.
quote:
I am continually amazed at how little most Americans, in particular, know or understand about those various cultures and their people.

With 3 teenagers under my roof, and my first exposure to the secondary public education system, I am not at all surprised. All primary and secondary public education is currently based on passing standardized testing, not creating well rounded individuals through exposure to the rest of the world.

In my opinion, the US education system's main fault is that it teaches isolationism because it centers too much on the US and does not expose anyone to other cultures.

Europe is farther ahead in this regard. To the best of my knowledge, most Europeans can speak at least one language other than their native tongue and they are taught this from their first day of school. They basically have to because the country next door likely has a different language altogether.

Fred
quote:
But, the hard fact is that most of us only know what we read and hear from the news media.


LOL!

Mario, some folks on here only get their facts from their LHS or from rumors started here Eek

I think you guys are right though. Americans believe that everyone else on this planet tries to copy us and that we're the "yardstick by which all others are measured" when in fact our ideology is in the minority.

Last time I went to Italy I helped a lady with a baby stroller down the front steps (her husband was 50 feet in front of her). She said thank you in 3 different languages before she got to English! I believe she was German because someone told me it was the German "Holiday" that week.
Scott,

Your description of how the different levels of workers 'sell' their expertise along with the description of the factory owners would have been (and I'm sure still are in this day & age) perfect examples to use in college (and some high school) classrooms of how pure, unregulated capitalism can control workplaces. Of course, the fact that this is happening in one of the last bastions of communism would have some of my old economic professors scratching their heads. One of my more enjoyable Business Administration classes was an Economics course taught by 3 different profs with distinctly different points of view. It made for some rather spirited discussions which of course brought in all the other aspects of how society worked.

I would imagine that the same sort of discussions ate occurring in China & S. Korea as they draw closer and closer in more & more what used to make them different. As you're most likely aware, 'hard' economic competition sometimes leads to equally 'hard' confrontation if open channels aren't maintained. I wonder what course (s) of action N. Korea's new leadership is thinking about taking because of all this?

Bill
While China's government bureaucracy is based on Communist theory, the economy has really transitioned to Fascism. As both Communist and Fascist economies require a Totalitarian State, this was an easy fit for China to slide over to.

FASCISM

Those of you steeped in the lore of Toy Trains will remember that some of Lionel's most admired tooling was created in another such state in the 1930's.

In fact, Joseph Bonanno's daughter told me that she still admires Italy under Mussolini (except for that part about teaming up with the Nazis).

The question will become: how will an increasingly affluent and educated work-force deal with a Totalitarian state?

Jon Cool
Scott

It is pretty amazing what you and Mike Wolfe ( oh I guess Lionel too) must do to get these trains made and shipped. So while I don't like to pay higher prices I understand that these are not made for free even with lower labor costs.

Still though it would be nice to have this stuff made here in the USA if this country's manufacturing should ever decide to come back.

And manufacturing WILL come back here; but I cannot say how that could happen unless I want this thread to close in short order.
Wow Jon your link to Doctor Britt's 14 Characteristics of Fascism is a little scary when we look at what's going on today. I printed a copy for my son to read, I think it is an eye opener. Thank You!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bill, I think many of our fellow Americans are into acquiring stuff and really don't give a hoot about quality or how long something will last. People buy cloths they will never wear, housewares they will never use and yes, in our case toys that remain in the box unopened.

There was a fellow in my neighborhood who had a collection of those fancy eggs. They where all over his house. They where on the mantel, dining room table, coffee table, end tables, they where all over the place. I never saw the rest of the house but the guy told me that what I saw was only part of his collection.

In another case a train dealer that I know was asked by one of his customers sister to clean out his apartment after the man past away. The place was full floor to ceiling with boxs of HO trains. From what I was told there where path ways through the rooms but for the most part it was all HO trains. Most of the stuff was odds and ends he picked up at train shows that where thrown loose in any box he could find.

In both cases I wonder if these two guys even had an inventory of what they had.

People today wont tons of stuff and they wont it cheap. Not so they can spend money on more important things but so they can have the funds to accumulate more stuff.

Americans are no longer just consumers, we have become a nation of accumulators.

In fact, if we all cleared out of our homes all the junk we never use at the same time it would take our trash collectors six months to catch up, if ever.
Our local high school had 16 or 17 exchange students from China last year. The student our daughter housed has no intention of going back. My daughter said she was told by other parents who housed them that the majority of them felt that way. Apparently the U.S. is still looked upon as the land of opportunity by the Chinese.
.....
Dennis

P.S. I guess I am one of the lucky ones. All of the MTH products I have bought over the past 12 years have been excellent quality and performed as advertised right out of the box.
Scott wrote about something that intrigued me.

Apparently the factories are more than willing to take in a housewife or college kid and with a bit of on the spot training, just enough to do something good on the line for a day or week etc just by walking in.

Here in the United States we go through such a painful and tortuous hiring process akin to Colon exams and workers (Non union part time) and employers are at will.

You cannot really walk in to a work place and hop to it under a foreman, the closest we can do that is by becoming a Temp worker who then is... treated rather different because said temp worker when the job is done; clocks out and goes home for the day no matter the hour.

If we can see employers around the USA do the same as they do overseas by simply taking in people who wish to work a little or learn a trade without having to feel committed or bound I think things will improve.

I think back to the industrial age and we had children and teenagers due to their agility and manual keen of nerve and eye for rather specific work. Today I see robots capable of inhuman precision.
SCOTT-THANK YOU FOR GIVING US A INSIGHT IN THE MANUFACTURING OF OUR TRAINS IN CHINA,FROM YOUR DESCRIPTION OF OPERATIONS IT SEEMS IT IS STILL CHEAPER AND
BETTER TO MAKE TOY TRAINS IN THE ORIENT THAN THE US.
I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THE US REGULAIONS AND COSTS YOU WOULD HAVE TO FACE TO
MAKE TRAINS HERE IN AMERICA.
MOST OF THE JOBS HERE IN FLORIDA PAY MINIMUM WAGE WITH NO HEALTH INSURANCE.
YOU WOULD SAVE ON SHIPPING OVER THE PACIFIC OCEAN.I WOULD LIKE TO SEE A COMPARISON PRICEV RATE.THANK YOU AGAIN FOR THE MOST INTERESTING ARTICLE
ON THIS HOBBY.
If we can see employers around the USA do the same as they do overseas by simply taking in people who wish to work a little or learn a trade without having to feel committed or bound I think things will improve.

Lee, they're called day workers and it happens all the time in the Landscaping, Warehousing and to some degree Contracting industries. Probably others as well.

Then ask this: As a business owner, how can one plan to sustain their operation when they do not know if the employee they had yesterday will be there today? Or if the person walking through the door is honest, let alone reliable?

As a business owner I'd not want that route at all.
Chris, from what I understand you have a business involving perodic deadlines which must be regularly met.

What little I know about importing trains, the trains get here when they get here, period. No real deadlines.

Casual workers may be an economic need if vendor supplied widgets have delayed arrival. It does not seem reasonable that say an order of 400 units of whatever actually takes (fill in the number) months/years to build.

Gots ta be a bunch of speed bumps in the process. Maybe no way to supply work on a regular basis for a whole crew. tt
US Jobs and Trains:

I think Weaver Models is the only model train company prepared to make trains in the US readily. Joe Hayder and I had discussed this at length (we stand next to each other at York 3 days every 6 months). We trade stories about how difficult these builders can be. I say, support Joe (Weaver Models) in any project they are producing in the US, and ignore the extra 20% in price (if there is one), so he can do what most of you ask, make models in the US. It will cost more for new tooling and production but it will keep jobs here. (plastic) Maybe he can put the regular price with a US Jobs Incentive (20% added). Just a thought.

As for brass production, long ago, PSC under the direction of Dave Bush, brought Koreans over and housed them so they could work on brass castings and other projects in his CA facility in the 1970s.

The importers of the day, KEY, Westside and my father, would buy his castings and bring them to Korea and Japan to have them applied to the models. Eventually, the factories in Korea made their own casting master patterns. One such company is OSC, Mr. Oh. He and my father were good buddies for many years. I enjoyed getting to know his Son and watching them change their model train casting factory from trains to musical instrument keys for Yamaha and other manufactures. These guys are masters at making lost wax castings of every kind.

They make the trucks for Wasatch and do other small projects for others.

PSC still makes their own brass castings as well in the US for over 35 years. BRAVO!!!

But the rest of the brass steam engine production process is more like an art form and is rather complicated, requiring experienced designers, pattern makers and sample model makers. They basically build a sample from scratch in the beginning to prove a design. It can be done in the US, but the complexities of making drivers and plating and painting chemicals that might not be allowed in certain areas might cause problems for setting up a facility in the US. And you would have to import the expertice from Korea to start the process.

The main Chinese managers I wrote about earlier have been with the same company for over 12 years. They are masters of this art form. We would have to duplicate that effort in the states just to get started.

I really enjoy project management and working with the artists overseas and watching these amazing models come to life from 2D drawings and photographs.

So when you look at one of your Sunset / 3rd Rail models and think to yourself, how did Scott do that? I have a lot of help over here with folks sending data and reviewing drawings, and over there with some of the most amazing artists in the business.

I hope you enjoyed learing a little bit about how this end of the train business works. It is a pleasure to be a part of it to get to know the customers who are so passionate about their hobby.

Enough mushy stuff... Carry on....

Scott Mann
It sure is nice. There is a great deal of ... myths regarding China and I am guilty of a few.

I don't mind Weaver doing a bit in Plastic as long they are weighted and can pull. The recent Wagontop Boxcar showed what Weaver was capable of.

Between Sunset and Weaver I think eventually most of the needs (Actually wants) can be met in time.

As an example of doing things here; there has been an effort to produce an extruded O Scale passenger car here in America that the machining company that would be doing the cutting out the windows/etc from the extrusion wants $240 PER CAR just for that work.  That does not include the cost of the extrusion or anything else. 

Comment here about $240 to punch windows in an O scale extrusion....wonder what Phoenix did to produce their extruded? series of passenger cars?  I managed to get a couple from a "dealer" set up at Wheaton once, with a shop in the Chicago area, and also talked to one of the people involved with Phoenix who also was at that show once, all several years ago.

Then POOF!, Phoenix has disappeared, to be found occasionally on eBay.  Also, the

"New Marx" was touted to be American made, but I don't think its founder, James

Flynn, is any longer associated with it...I'd like to know the production

histories of both those companies...as far as that goes, how did K-Line screw up

so royally?  What is Maury Klein doing now?

Scott,

Thanks for your insight on production in Asia; I lived in Japan years ago and traveled extensively---I understand the reward and the risk!     We import high end carpets from India, Pakistan and Nepal---it is not easy working with nations in that area.

 

That said, they have many talented artisans and dedicated craftsman.

 

Wishing you continued success

Originally Posted by coloradohirailer:
... Also, the "New Marx" was touted to be American made, but I don't think its founder, James Flynn, is any longer associated with it...I'd like to know the production histories of both those companies...as far as that goes, how did K-Line screw up so royally?  What is Maury Klein doing now?

1.  New Marx was made in the U.S.  The Flynns are no longer associated with it.

 

2.  K-Line got in too far, too fast, and ultimately couldn't keep its head above water (meaning $ owed to suppliers).

 

3.  Maury D. Klein operates a UPS store in North Carolina.

Here's a thought....if the USA is looked so highly upon as the golden land of opportunity, why aren't some the enterprising Koreans or Chinese seting up shops here?  You would be closer to your biggest customer (currently) and there would be no suprise "raids"or closures by the govt.  Shipping cost would be nil too!    

 

It must be enviromental or tax laws that seem (to me) to be very lacking over there which are holding them back???

I think the "Land of Opportunity" you are referring to, for making a company in the US, applies to new business, VC funding opportunities, easier lending and protection of IP.  Once a business is established here, they quickly search for ways of cutting costs, and moving the lower skilled labor overseas(example, APPLE).

 

As for the Korean's moving closer to their customer.... 1. They can fly 40 minutes to Qingdao and set up shop where labor is cheap, and living is relatively inexpensive and close to home, and there are vendors and support facilities within reach,  or they can fly 12 hours to the US. 

 

Again, the model train business, at least the end that we are producing in, is a cottage industry and basically run by artistans not industrial engineers in small, simple facilities.

 

Guys, there are 600,000,000 (600 Million)  Chinese entering the middle class. SELL SOMETHING TO THEM.... They want to buy US goods. They know their own stuff is poor quality and US good are the best quality.  I know several people just in my neighborhood that have linked up with Chinese Nationals and are sending containers of US made goods (Wine, Clothing, Shoes, Hi End Stuff) over for a profit.

 

I just saw on the news, the average Chinese tourist spends $6000 when they visit the US. Over 1.5 million visits were recored in 2011 and we are making it easier for them to come over on a tourist visa. Welcome them to your town... Get them to come over more... There is money to be made, jobs created. 

 

Think out of the box.

 

Scott

Last edited by sdmann

You may want to also look at student visa.  And temporary work visa.   My youngest son-in-law is completing a Master Program at Carnegie Mellon in Computer Science. You should check out his Friends list on Facebook. There is very seldom a name on that list that is American.   Many, many Indian and those not Indian are Asian.  All very very smart and hard working.  Somewhere before the economic downturn there was always interesting talk in the Pittsburgh Post Gazette about High Tech Green Cards that varied from 90,000 to 120,000 people.  Not model train assembly workers, six figure saleries.  There are here because they like living here but could easily take themselves and their knowledge elsewhere.

Scott I take my hat of to you for  doing what you do.  Knowing how the system works over there keeps me grounded on why things take so long.  You should write a book if you can find the time.  I appreciate the CB&Q models I have even more now that I read your story.  Doing business there is like riding over a wooden trestle while the timbers are crumbling down below, and staying one step ahead of a total collapse. 

Very ineresting.  The same factory issues plus changes in the Chinese work force have harmed the diecast car industry...Franklin Mint...Danbury Mint both had popular lines of cars that have discontinued.  I have heard stories that Chinese now are growing up without the knowledge of ancient hand crafts and that was part of the "plus" to having models made in China.  They all want ipads and stuff and the work force is demanding more $$$

I think there is a very real possibility of China imploding economically.   Even with all the money we send them the government is deficit spending and subsidizing at least as bad as we are on infrastructure and green tech and really stupid stuff like aircraft carriers.  Their problem is their accounting structures are so bad by the time they know it's time to stop it will be way too late.

 

moving closer to their customer.... 1. They can fly 40 minutes to Qingdao and set up shop where labor is cheap, and living is relatively inexpensive and close to home, and there are vendors and support facilities within reach,


The same can be said for Mexico here. The parts can be made in Mexico and shipped across the border to be assembled by American folks here, many big companies are doing it now under NAFTA.

Up until 10 years ago Steam engines were common place in China. Now you don't see them except in a museum in China

 

Will China implode? No, but they will contract. They have such a huge middle class now, buying everything made here and abroad. I know several people working with Chinese importers shipping containers of goods from the US for consumption in China. It's a good business.

 

But the high paced growth cannot be sustained. And the wage increases of 20 -25% per year are forcing many companies to go further out to find cheap labor. The Philippenes, Malasia, Indonesia are where fast moving companies are turning for labor. A growning number of Korea companies are forming in the Philippenes.  One such company is Boo Rim, famous for very high end brass. Another is a not so well known company, that I buy trains from. Soon you will see, Made in the Philippenes on our boxes.

 

Will I spend my money to bring workers over to the US to visit and study steam up close, no?  Each time I have seen this, they very carefully plan their own itineraries to visit competitors and find new business apart from me. So I will not support that. Each time an importer invites a builder to a show with them, I think to myself, what a fool as I watch their guest walking around passing out business cards.

 

Back to China's Economy:

Just from watching CNN I learned that the local governments in China collectively owe the central government over 2 Trillion US$. That is what paid for all the infrastructure, roads, skyscrapers etc. A lot of this money was pocketed by local officials who then moved to the US under the new Green Card act (invest 500K in the US and get a green card). Even here on local TV they show 60% of wealthy Chinese live abroad. And the rest want to.  So now the remaining officials are taxing the >%&# out of small foreign owned businesses. I have heard many stories about tax audit after tax audit to collect monies. There is no due process, no lawyers, only payoffs and paperwork. So many of these small companies are moving or closing. It is anti business there now.

I would rather buy American made products. I bought a Ford pickup instead of a Toyota for just that reason.  Probably won't make that mistake again.

 

We lost our manufacturing base, and lost a huge chunk of what we call the middle class at the same time.  We need a middle class to make this work - i have no idea how we regenerate a middle class. As a loyal ALPA member, I could hazard a guess . . .

 

I know how to build locomotive models.  If I thought I could make even a slight profit, I would roll out kits for a Hariman 0-6-0 of the "drop the box" variety - all the hard work done.  But at the quantities I would guess at, it would be all hand work, and I would lose my shirt at a grand each.

 

So we will continue to seek the lowest labor cost, and use our American ingenuity to fill out paperwork.  I guess.  

 

One of my flight students off-shored a lot of his work two years ago.  He now makes monthly flights to the Phillipines.  I guess he beat Scott.  He does not make trains.

hello bob2.............

I have a 1970 ford F-100 and i still drive it to this day and its 42 years old!!!!!!!!! and pure american made truck (has "made in USA " metal tag riveted to the door jam) 390, C-6, 9 inch and long bed and still has its orginal  hub caps on it.  I don't want to deal with very expensive to repair late model computer junk auto companies put in their cars and trucks now days. I must have at least half million miles on it by now and the 390 was rebuild while ago.  I think the sunset 3rd engines are made in Korea ? I just put a deposit on one 

 

the woman who loves toy trains

Tiffany 

You are going to love the Sunset model.   It is extremely well made, and you would have to double your investment to get even a slightly better model.

 

I have two Mustang convertibles - 1964 and 1966.  They are superb, easy to fix, and run for hundreds of thousands of miles between major repairs.  I have a 1946 Piper Cub that runs even better.

 

Things have changed.  The fuel pump in my Mustang can be repaired with a $20 kit.  The fuel pump in my 2003 Ranger went out at 33000 miles, and cost just shy of a grand to replace.  The Ranger has a General Electronics Module, and if it ever goes out the truck is probably junk.  It got a $3000 transmission overhaul at 31,000 miles.  I have learned my lesson.  My wife drives a BMW 6- series.  Trouble-free.

 

Rest assured, what has happened to Fords has not happened to most Sunset imports.  They make mistakes now and then, but these ATSF models are top drawer.

Originally Posted by bob2:

You are going to love the Sunset model.   It is extremely well made, and you would have to double your investment to get even a slightly better model.

 

I have two Mustang convertibles - 1964 and 1966.  They are superb, easy to fix, and run for hundreds of thousands of miles between major repairs.  I have a 1946 Piper Cub that runs even better.

 

Things have changed.  The fuel pump in my Mustang can be repaired with a $20 kit.  The fuel pump in my 2003 Ranger went out at 33000 miles, and cost just shy of a grand to replace.  The Ranger has a General Electronics Module, and if it ever goes out the truck is probably junk.  It got a $3000 transmission overhaul at 31,000 miles.  I have learned my lesson.  My wife drives a BMW 6- series.  Trouble-free.

 

Rest assured, what has happened to Fords has not happened to most Sunset imports.  They make mistakes now and then, but these ATSF models are top drawer.

I'm sorry, but you can't compare model train manufacturing to autombiles or aircraft.

 

In anything made anywhere, some people will swear by an item, others will swear at it.  I had a 1976 Chevy Blazer that I unleashed my longshoreman's dictionary on quite often, yet my 79 Malibu was virtually indestructible.

 

And, I have some good old Michigan-made Lionel/American Flyer that is nothing but junk, but  how that relates to the auto industry is questionable.

 

Rusty

Originally Posted by dkdkrd:
Originally Posted by Rusty Traque:
Originally Posted by bob2:

 

 

And, I have some good old Michigan-made Lionel/American Flyer that is nothing but junk, but  how that relates to the auto industry is questionable.

 

Rusty

You do know that both were made by our friends in the UAW, ...right?

 

...pick one. 

 

KD

Yes, I do. 

 

Plus, I knew one of the product engineers during that period.

 

My point is folks tend to go on and on about the good stuff made back then, but don't seem to recall things that didn't work well.

 

Rusty

Originally Posted by Rusty Traque:

 

My point is folks tend to go on and on about the good stuff made back then, but don't seem to recall things that didn't work well.

 

Rusty

I don't think people go on and on about good stuff made in the 1970s and 1980s.  Good stuff is generally the exception.  But 1950s Lionel is well made.  Made-in-America was a sign of quality as Made-in-West Germany became later.  Packards were World-Class, the SS United States was the fastest and likely "finest" ocean liner.  The Class J was arguably the "greatest" passenger locomotive.  Tailored clothing was mass-produced but of superb quality made to last decades.  Etc.  Americans used to care about quality, and not so much about price.

well said
 
Originally Posted by Gilbert Ives:
Originally Posted by Rusty Traque:

 

My point is folks tend to go on and on about the good stuff made back then, but don't seem to recall things that didn't work well.

 

Rusty

I don't think people go on and on about good stuff made in the 1970s and 1980s.  Good stuff is generally the exception.  But 1950s Lionel is well made.  Made-in-America was a sign of quality as Made-in-West Germany became later.  Packards were World-Class, the SS United States was the fastest and likely "finest" ocean liner.  The Class J was arguably the "greatest" passenger locomotive.  Tailored clothing was mass-produced but of superb quality made to last decades.  Etc.  Americans used to care about quality, and not so much about price.

Originally Posted by Gilbert Ives:

But 1950s Lionel is well made.  Made-in-America was a sign of quality as Made-in-West Germany became later.  Packards were World-Class, the SS United States was the fastest and likely "finest" ocean liner.  The Class J was arguably the "greatest" passenger locomotive.  Tailored clothing was mass-produced but of superb quality made to last decades.  Etc.  Americans used to care about quality, and not so much about price.

From what I've seen, most 1950s Lionel stuff was die-cast with a screw-in lamp, a simple horn, and not much detail, that's it.  Cars, planes, ships, etc were sturdily built and heavy for the most part.  My dad had a Ford truck made out of 10 gauge sheet metal (over 1/8" thick).  I was watching a show on the B-17 this morning and one of the speakers said it was built like a truss-bridge underneath the thin sheet metal skin.

 

I don't recall the clothing I wore as a kid, but I'm sure there wasn't the wide variety of choices we have now.  Just look at how many different styles of Dockers pants there are today.

 

Today everything is electronics driven.  At the rapid pace in which electronics is developing, what was new yesterday is out-dated within a short time.

 

Everything is designed by computer that does computations much faster than a human can do.  Today robots build autos that used to be built by humans on an assembly line.

 

I think it all comes down to people wanting more choices...the more choices we want, the more watered-down the product will be and the more expensive it will become.


 I was watching a show on the B-17 this morning and one of the speakers said it was built like a truss-bridge underneath the thin sheet metal skin.

 That is false, some Britsh aircraft where built like that, i.e the Hurricane. Most aircraft are built using the semi-monocoque design system.

Everything is designed by computer that does computations much faster than a human can do.  

And the humans are forgetting how to even designing things or think on their own

 

 

I don't need to look anywhere, I spent 25+ years working on warbirds, I know how they'er built, I just get tired of supposed history experts (them, I'm not accusing you) misleading people. If that is what they meant to say then they should said it that way and not mislead people using an incorrect engineering term. I determined long ago if they are that incorrect on something I do know, how can I trust them to tell me about something I do not know that much about? 

I remember reading that the US factory output is still higher than China, just using 1/10th the workers because of automation. So production in the US is still there, just not the jobs in the factories.

 

For Brass model trains, there was never production in the US. It is a boutique industry where artisans make these models, pretty much the same way for the last 40 years. Only now, the Koreans are the artisans, and the Chinese are the unskilled labor putting things together. Making brass models in the US would be futile IMHO. The average manager in China make $300 a week. The workers make 1200 RMB per month, or $200 / month. Americans won't work for and cannot survive on such wages. Let those who can survive on that, do those kinds of jobs. Just somthing to chew on. If our models were 3 X or 4X the price, we would not be able to sell as many, so even if they were made here, the market would be so much small that we couldn't afford to employ anyone. It's purely economics.

 

Scott - China

We have to separate fact from nostalgia. Fact... at the end of the war and during the 50s we were the only manufacturing power in the world. It really didn't matter what was produced since we were the only one doing it. Until we rebuilt Japan and Germany, they had no industrial might.

 

And what's made here is still terrific... just look at that little thing running around on Mars as an example of superb manufacturing, engineering and design. The problem is that the only real manufacturing might we have is in defense and aerospace, not consumer goods.

 

We still make the finest aircraft bar none. The F-35 is a marvel. It's engine is a work of art. I could go on and on.

 

One of our significant challenges and problems is how we view the role of a company in the USA. In every company I've ever worked in or consulted with, the prime directive was to make money for the owner/shareholders. There was no statement about providing employment for society. Thus as soon as a turn down happens or is even threatened, the knee-jerk reaction is to lay off humans. Right now Lockheed Martin is laying people off BEFORE the government cuts any defense spending. It's a new tactic called Pre-emptive layoffs.

 

This is not the case in Germany where there are TWO prime directives. The first, like ours, is to make money for owners/shareholders, but there is a second. The second directive is to provide employment for the society since they recognize that without employment the society withers. 

 

This shows up operationally in this way. While we shed millions of highly talented workers in this recession (including me), the Germans put their folks on 4-day workweeks and put them through upgrade training on the fifth day. Then, as the economy turned around, they didn't lose a single skilled worker and were immediately in action. Why couldn't we have done this? Because we do not value employment or employees and something important in its own right, just as a means to create wealth. I suggested this to my employer in 2008, but was greeted with a response that it was "too difficult to alter working hours, and was simpler to just fire people."

 

I still believe that slowly Americans are waking up to the connection between full-employment and a vibrant middle class. Hopefully, it's not too late.

Originally Posted by TimDude:

I don't need to look anywhere, I spent 25+ years working on warbirds, I know how they'er built, I just get tired of supposed history experts (them, I'm not accusing you) misleading people. If that is what they meant to say then they should said it that way and not mislead people using an incorrect engineering term. I determined long ago if they are that incorrect on something I do know, how can I trust them to tell me about something I do not know that much about? 

Surely "Built like a Brick... Outhouse"  has a meaning other than the literal.

If an engineer takes that literal then I don't want them design anything for me , but when somebody uses the term "truss-bridge" to describe something that is not a truss system, that is misleading. I realize I am nit picking but it has always bugged me and makes me leery of believing anything else the "experts" say.
 
Originally Posted by Gilbert Ives:
Originally Posted by TimDude:

I don't need to look anywhere, I spent 25+ years working on warbirds, I know how they'er built, I just get tired of supposed history experts (them, I'm not accusing you) misleading people. If that is what they meant to say then they should said it that way and not mislead people using an incorrect engineering term. I determined long ago if they are that incorrect on something I do know, how can I trust them to tell me about something I do not know that much about? 

Surely "Built like a Brick... Outhouse"  has a meaning other than the literal.

Hey Hot - this has little to do with trains, because the thread drifted. Scott has given us definitive information, leaving little to discuss about production of fine models for the small community of train nuts.

 

I line up with Trainman2001 above.  I think we need to expand the duties of corporation management to include constituencies other than shareholders.  Bear in mind that in saying that, I am expressing a philosophy, not a fact.

 

I really liked Mort Mann, and am delighted that Scott could continue the buainess and still provide really good models at an affordable price.  I would guess that now is the time to stock up on the models you want.  Prices and quality will take a turn for the worse as the new low wage country is brought up to speed.

 

The flaws in my Ford Ranger are all engineering and management flaws.  The construction and external appearance are beyond criticism.  Our working class knows how to build stuff.

Originally Posted by Trainman2001:

This is not the case in Germany where there are TWO prime directives. The first, like ours, is to make money for owners/shareholders, but there is a second. The second directive is to provide employment for the society since they recognize that without employment the society withers. 

 

This shows up operationally in this way. While we shed millions of highly talented workers in this recession (including me), the Germans put their folks on 4-day workweeks and put them through upgrade training on the fifth day. Then, as the economy turned around, they didn't lose a single skilled worker and were immediately in action.

Just to add on to this comment.  Germans are also less concerned about corporate quarterly profits and focus on the longer term.  They also have mastered the apprenticeship approach, and have no shortage of skilled workers.

 

Jim

Originally Posted by jd-train:
 

Just to add on to this comment.  Germans are also less concerned about corporate quarterly profits and focus on the longer term.  They also have mastered the apprenticeship approach, and have no shortage of skilled workers.

 

Jim

My take is that Germany views itself as a Country AND Economy with policy designed to benefit both.  

Regarding Lockheed, I worked for them for about 12 years. Great company, fine people. Interesting work, very leading edge.

 

My first management meeting, my first week, my first real job... at 22 years old, with only my old car and old stereo from school as my assets, at the height of gov defense spending in 1986... The subject of the meeting was, "Engineering Layoffs". I was terrified from the start. What if I get laidoff? I just started, no seniority... nothing to brag about on my resume to get another job.

 

Well, I discovered at every salary increase period, they put out memo's of how many 1000s of engineers needed to be shed, and when you got your 2% raise for the year, you were happy to be employed. My tactic in response was to keep interviewing at every opportunity. I had head hunters calling, setting up dinner interviews, breakfast interviews, anything to keep my options open. I acted as if I was unemployed.

 

I ended up not going to any of these other companies, but instead jumped ship when the company was moving to Palmdale, and opted for Lockheed Sunnyvale as a paid transfer. Always loved N. California anyway.

 

When Lockheed bought Loral and joined with Martin, the slogan was, "Lo Mor al". They had 175,000 employees at that point. It was easy to get lost.

 

My project in Sunnyvale ended after a year and a half and I was thrown into central engineering where I knew no one, not even my supervisor. We had to basically interview for new positions within the company, and you had to find them yourself. I took whatever I could find and self trained myself in C++ so I could get into a group of programmers for a new defensive missle program. Thank God my code wasn't used, it would have never worked....

 

Later I found work at a sub contractor that supplied targets for the defensive missle, and I was back doing what I knew. But in a subcontractor of only 50 people, I often sat with the President having coffee, discussing the direction of the company. Then I knew, I really wasn't long for engineering, I wanted to run a company myself. 2 more job jumps and I new I was done with all the malarky, and asked Dad if I could work with him to build up Sunset Models. What a relief that was, to not have to worry about layoffs.... But now, I have 100s of bosses, and if I screw up, it comes right out of my pocket. There are so many pot holes, and pit falls, that it is a wonder anyone can stay in business. Business is much harder than I ever expected and a lot less profitable.

 

Why am I ranting on about this... No reason, just my person experience that got me to this point. When the models come out good, I get praise. Making people happy is the biggest kick. But you are only as good as your last project. You have to be so careful. So I watch over these projects to make sure we don't get dumped on. And you, our customers get what you expect. That is what keeps us going.

 

Along the way, I am learning about doing business in Asia. It is facinating, and I happy to shed light on what is going on here for those of you who do not have the opportunity to see it first hand. To me it is second nature now. I just know what to do and say to get things done after doing this for so long. But things do change quickly and looking back at my days at Lockheed, it sure was nice getting paychecks every 2 weeks...

 

I can see things changing for the worse for foreign owned businesses in China. But there are many other places one can go. It's just a matter of time.

 

I am enjoying the debate. Very interesting input. It's about trains, and how to get them made. For me, the thread is builing the foundation of understanding that helps everone understand what it takes to make the models for your hobby.

 

Scott Mann

Glad to hear from you,Scott. I worked the Minuteman III missile system in the 70s as a launch officer for the Air Force. I can synpathize with you. It was a thankless job and I was get to finish my tour and get discharged honorably. You mentioned Boo Rim moving to the Phillipines. He just put out an HO model of the Jawn Henry for around $2750.00.  Yours is coming out for 2/3 that price (in O scale)-and this is to be commended.  I already have my order in!Why is the HO current brass market so high?  Is it a matter of numbers produced?

Me too - I was a radar systems engineer for ten years.  Could not bear the thought of flying a desk, took a giant pay cut, and became an airline pilot.  Used to be a good way of making a living.  I wound up in an Airbus 320.  My old company tried to hire me back.  No way.

 

Spent the day in a light aircraft over Colo and NM with a student.  He has a hundred employees in the Phillipines, 27 in China, and offices in Tel Aviv and here. I do not really know what he does, but he says it takes 100 Phillipine workers to do the job of 80, and it takes 27 Chinese workers to do the work of 27 workers.

 

I am retired.  I admire Scott and his efforts to bring us all this nice stuff.  I am glad I do not have to fight the system any more.  I was horrified as we got on the airline yesterday - it looked like a peaceful version of an insurrection at the check points.  I have never seen anything like it.  I have free travel bennies with USAir, and hope never to see another airline terminal as long as I live.  I do not envy our young citizens.

 

I am actually having a great time, frittering away my retirement on forums.  I still fly over 400 hours a year, teach patent and corporation law, and build Cab Forwards when I am not fooling with the iPad.

Originally Posted by bob2:

 

I am retired.  I admire Scott and his efforts to bring us all this nice stuff.  I am glad I do not have to fight the system any more.  I was horrified as we got on the airline yesterday - it looked like a peaceful version of an insurrection at the check points.  I have never seen anything like it.  I have free travel bennies with USAir, and hope never to see another airline terminal as long as I live.  I do not envy our young citizens.

 

I decided 10 years ago that I would not voluntarily check into gestapo concentration camps and that's what I consider airports now.  I have flown only once since on my employer's nickel and time.  If I can't go by train or car or ship it's not worth going.

Originally Posted by rdunniii:
Originally Posted by bob2:

 

I am retired.  I admire Scott and his efforts to bring us all this nice stuff.  I am glad I do not have to fight the system any more.  I was horrified as we got on the airline yesterday - it looked like a peaceful version of an insurrection at the check points.  I have never seen anything like it.  I have free travel bennies with USAir, and hope never to see another airline terminal as long as I live.  I do not envy our young citizens.

 

I decided 10 years ago that I would not voluntarily check into gestapo concentration camps and that's what I consider airports now.  I have flown only once since on my employer's nickel and time.  If I can't go by train or car or ship it's not worth going.

Well, that makes two of us... 

 

 

...and I finished my last 15 years of GM traveling to Europe, Australia, Japan, SE Asia...as well as ping-ponging across the continental US.  It was 'tolerable' then, but...

 

No more. Nada. Zip.

 

BTW...Thanks, Scott, for ALL you do for our hobby!

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