BCR versus Batteries

I would use them in PS1 but nothing else. Waste of money IMO on anything else. 

I'm a great believer in BCRs. When Proto-2 Engines go through a "Shut Down" procedure, information is transferred from the Engine to the Remote. If your Battery is bad, many times the info. does not get stored properly and the next time you attempt a "Start Up" you will either get "No Engine Found" or "Engine Not On Track." BCRs take care of this.

 

One of my customers had a roster of MTH Engines and was having many headaches with them. The fix was to replace all Batteries. I'm still in contact with him and it is still working.

 

Good luck and regards, Bob Barth

Where can I find BCR's

This is an issue comparable to whether a Ford or Chevy is better--lot's of non-agreement.  Personally, I have never had a problem with batteries.  I have replaced 2 or 3 since getting my first PS2, about when DCS came out.  I use the trains enough to keep batteries reaosnably charged.  I am not willing to spend the money it would take to replace the batteries in my 20 PS2 locos with BCRs.  On the other hand, GunrunnerJohn "rolls his own" capacitors and is happy.  If you rareley run traisn, a BCR may be worth looking into.  MTH NiCad batteries (8.4 volt) last me well over 6 years.  I haven't replaced any 2.4 volt batteries, which I've been using since the upgrasde kits came out.

 

Usually even a pretty well shot battery will hold enough power to accomplish the shut down data storage.  A total internal failure would of course preclude this.

One What kind of Price are we looking at and Two Where in the world can I find them

What you described has never happened to me or any of my train friends. I have had dcs from the beginning and Never once ever heard that happening. 

 

Changing batteries in PS2 is no big deal, and my batteries last on the avg of about 10 years. 

 

As stated before bcr's are a total waste of money on ps2 and later. There is no need for them. 

Go to the source: www.jandwelectronics.com

Seems to me that a BCR type fix should have been provided as an after purchase fix by MTH  for all PS1 locomotives. The problem cost me a lot of money Ca $600 until I figured out what was going on with the electronics.

Barry, As an academic matter, I'm curious as to why there could be damage to early 5-volt boards and what the unpredictable results are with 3-volt boards.

Charlie,

The problem cost me a lot of money Ca $600 until I figured out what was going on with the electronics.

What expenses did you have?

My guess is that the PS1 batteries were low and the chips got garbled, which is repairable.  I converted all my old (early 90's) Weaver QSI locos to PS2,  some 5-7 years ago, and they are among the best running locos I have.  Also converted all my pre-PS2 MTH's, which were whistle only.

 

Barry, what constitutes "operating"?  Do you mean that the 30-45 second BCR charge period has to be  before "Start-Up"?

 

 

 

Put a locomotive on the track.

Apply 10 volts for 1 minute.

Sounds come on as BCR charges up

After 1 minute, locomotive is ready to run

Well, if it's running under DCS, the sounds shouldn't be coming on until I actually press the startup button.  I have BCR's in some PS/2 5V engines, that's what they do.

 

Barry,

If a low charge BCR can cause damage to 5 volt PS2 engines, do you believe a low battery can cause damage also?

The one thing that I can think of that's different is the internal resistance of the battery and the BCR when they're both totally discharged.  The BCR will appear to be almost a dead short for a short period of time, the battery doesn't have that low an internal resistance.

That's my point.   I put the BCR loco on the track, turn up the voltage, hit Start-Up, then wait the 30 seconds to charge before sending "commands" like speed or sound.

 

But if Start-Up is considered an operation command, then according to Barry I may be risking damage to 5 V board.

 

Should the 30-40 second charge period come before or after Start Up?

It would seem from Barry's comments that it makes a big difference.

 

Thanks

 

I think gunnerjohn got it right:  internal resistance.

hojack,

Should the 30-40 second charge period come before or after Start Up?

Do you mean that the 30-45 second BCR charge period has to be  before"Start-Up"?

No, what I've been told is just before actual operation. Also, there's no other option when running conventionally.

Put a locomotive on the track.

Apply 10 volts for 1 minute.

Sounds come on as BCR charges up

After 1 minute, locomotive is ready to run

That's for conventional operation.

Joe,

If a low charge BCR can cause damage to 5 volt PS2 engines, do you believe a low battery can cause damage also?

No, the BCR charges differently than does a battery.

Thank you barry So at this point I am guessing that I will use a couple of BCRs in my PS-1 and use Batteries in my PS 2's especially the early 5volt Boards

 

I want to thank you all for helping me in this

and for all the good and useful information you have shared

Our only MTH repair man here in the UK advises against BCR`s as they can cause damage to the charging circuit board as born out with 3 of my Ps1 locos so I`m in the process of replacing the BCR`s with batteries again.

Wow!  Never heard of this happening.

     Well I'm not getting rid of my BCR's and I've never experienced problems with them. Just because a repairman receives an engine with a BCR installed doesn't mean it was the cause of the problem. The only engine (PS1) that I had with a charging problem had a battery in it and it was before BCR's were made.

There are hundreds of BCR's in PS1 engines without a problem. I have a 11 in regular service myself. What does that tell you?

That you've spent a lot of money on BCR's [kidding]. 

 

As I said near the top oif this thread, it's like decision whether to drive a Chevy or a Ford.

          I just converted all of my engines to BCR's. Some times I do not get to run the the layout as often as I like because I am recovering from surgery and I do not have to worry about charging the batteries. I have had no problems with the BCR's so far.

 

RJR,

The only trouble is the ford's and chevy's have batteries. It would be great if someone made a BCR for them and used a solar charger to keep them powered up when they're not in use.

Today's technology is not far enough advanced for a capacitor to hold the power needed to crank an engine.  Plus, the capacitor self-discharges at a rate that would preclude letting a car sit for a few weeks; this is why a BCR must charge up when firing up the layout.

I will be working on a "charge/discharge" circuit for the BCR charging problem.

 

By adding a small diode and resistor in the BCR charging circuit it is possible to reduce the inrush current when charging.  One diode is used with a small resistor value to allow charging at a reduced inrush current. Another diode in opposite polarity will allow discharging of the BCR once the BCR is fully charged. I will be testing this circuit concept with several BCRs from different manufacturers.

 

Remember the sole purpose of the BCR is to keep the engine's control circuits alive when track power is removed or lost.

I proposed that exact solution to solve the inrush current some time ago.

I wonder if MTH done anything like this on the PS3 boards?

Well, they have a super-cap, so it would be interesting to see what they have done.  It's easy to implement, and I doubt it would affect the function of the 5V boards at all, not so sure about the 3V boards.  The 5V boards charge to close to 9V on the battery, so they have plenty of headroom for the 5V regulator, I don't know about the 3V boards.  You have to account for the diode drop when discharging.  A Schottky diode would probably be my choice for the isolation, just to lower the voltage drop.  I'm thinking a pretty low value resistor is sufficient, on the order of 10-25 ohms. 

 

The shame of it all is that MTH knows exactly what the situation is, but they're remaining mum.

What charging problem? I use a lot of these and have not experienced a problem.

 

Dale H

Dale, it's a potential problem, I haven't seen it actually affect any of the PS/2 stuff I have BCR's or BCR clones in, but that's only 8 or 9 pieces.

 

Basically, the supercap appears as close to a dead short when it's totally discharged until it starts to charge.  The speculation is that might damage the charging electronics, and several people have claimed to have that kill the electronics.  Whether it was that issue that caused the problem, or something else, is open to speculation.

Hi John

 

I would think the dead short would be a brief event with a totally discharged capacitor circuit.  Most charging circuits limit current draw anyway and/or have chips which shut themselves down if they overheat. (the common  V10 chip for instance).  Not sure what the PS1 or 2 charging circuits are made of since it is proprietary.

 

A lot of times people have trouble with an engine and replace a battery with a BCR after it has already been damaged trying to charge a faulty battery. The damage is then erroneously blamed on the BCR.

 

At any rate I have not experienced any issues with PS1 locos and BCRs and I have a lot of them. I guess if it was a concern you could install an inrush surge suppressor or put a few ohms of resistance in the circuit.

 

Dale H

The short would be brief, the question is can the circuit handle it.  I don't know the answer to that, or if this is even an issue.  We were just discussing it a while back and I made the suggestion of limiting the inrush current for charging.

I don't know, but I would think a battery that won't take a charge would be harder on the charging system then a BCR.