Daylight Passenger Cars

Both have. Lionel's are plastic, K-Line's are metal.

Pete

I have 18 of the K-line 21" Daylight cars.  They are a budget stand-in for the GGD set which is the best aluminum set on the market.  The colors are are a little dark on the K-Line cars. 

K-Line produced many of these and I have a number of them. As far as I am aware Lionel never produced 21" aluminum Daylight cars but their 18" versions are among the best passenger cars they ever did make.

Many people swear by the K-Line cars but IMHO they don't stand up to comparison with the GGD cars. Fortunately Scott Mann is reissuing the GGD versions in both 21" and 18." Pricey, yes - but you get what you pay for.

Hancock52 posted:

K-Line produced many of these and I have a number of them. As far as I am aware Lionel never produced 21" aluminum Daylight cars but their 18" versions are among the best passenger cars they ever did make.

Many people swear by the K-Line cars but IMHO they don't stand up to comparison with the GGD cars. Fortunately Scott Mann is reissuing the GGD versions in both 21" and 18." Pricey, yes - but you get what you pay for.

Not to mention that Golden Gate Depot is the ONLY company to produce/offer the correct articulated chair cars and the three section articulated diner, in 3-Rail, for Southern Pacific.

K-Line's Daylight colors are a faded shade, at least to my eye. I thought the GGD Daylight cars were as well. I prefer the more vibrant colors on the Lionel 18" and 21" Daylight cars. Just my personal preference. (As an aside, the Lionel cars are the only ones that match the Lionel SP GS2 and GS4 engines. The other cars aren't going to look very good with the Lionel engines, if someone is using those engines.)

K-Line

Golden Gate Depot

Lionel 18" (metal cars)

Lionel 21" (plastic cars)

Hot Water posted

Not to mention that Golden Gate Depot is the ONLY company to produce/offer the correct articulated chair cars and the three section articulated diner, in 3-Rail, for Southern Pacific.

 

I foolishly let my GGD set go...

Golden Gate colors are more correct than either Lionel or K-Line.  Also they are the only O Scale cars even approaching the correct corrugations.  The trucks have a slight error, but you probably won't notice.

Daylight colors are somewhat subdued.  The red is almost identical to Warbonnet red, and the orange is darn near D&RGW Grande Gold.

Hot Water posted:

Hancock52 posted:

K-Line produced many of these and I have a number of them. As far as I am aware Lionel never produced 21" aluminum Daylight cars but their 18" versions are among the best passenger cars they ever did make.

Many people swear by the K-Line cars but IMHO they don't stand up to comparison with the GGD cars. Fortunately Scott Mann is reissuing the GGD versions in both 21" and 18." Pricey, yes - but you get what you pay for.

Not to mention that Golden Gate Depot is the ONLY company to produce/offer the correct articulated chair cars and the three section articulated diner, in 3-Rail, for Southern Pacific.

 

Not to go too far off the OP’s original question (whether Lionel and/or K-Line produced 21” aluminum Daylight cars) but the issue with the articulated sets is the diaphragms between the cars. Not an easy thing to execute in 3rail. We’ll see what GGD comes up with for their new run. Whatever it is, it’s the only game in town if you want O scale representations of these cars for 3rail.

I invented a "snap-in" full width diaphragm with total flexibility.  It is lightly sprung, and on a curve it is almost metal to metal.

The prototype cars are shorties - 68 feet - but still I had to go with 1/8" more space between articulated sections to make it around 74" radius.  That's O-148, in 3-rail speak.

bob2 posted:

I invented a "snap-in" full width diaphragm with total flexibility.  It is lightly sprung, and on a curve it is almost metal to metal.

The prototype cars are shorties - 68 feet - but still I had to go with 1/8" more space between articulated sections to make it around 74" radius.  That's O-148, in 3-rail speak.

Do you have a photo or other illustration of these? I already have the GGD articulated diner (3 car set, in 3rail) and a diaphragm solution would be of interest to me.

Phoenex Railway made the articulated chair and diner sets.  They are harder to find than the GGD cars.

bob2 posted:

Golden Gate colors are more correct than either Lionel or K-Line.  

Daylight colors are somewhat subdued.  The red is almost identical to Warbonnet red, and the orange is darn near D&RGW Grande Gold.

Well, they weren't subdued at all on the 4449 I saw recently in Portland. The red isn't anywhere close to Warbonnet red, and the orange isn't anywhere close to DRGW gold, at least to my eye. Certainly very different from the Golden Gate (and K-Line) colors, and very close to the Lionel colors. I assume the 4449 crew would have attempted to get the colors as accurate as possible.

Golden Gate colors below - very flat, and different shades of color:

Regardless, I prefer the Daylight with the more radiant colors. But that's just my preference.

The Imron gives 4449 a gloss that it never had with Dulux enamel, at least not after a day on the road.  But the colors on 4449 are accurate, as are the Sunset colors.  Scale Craft had accurate Daylight colors.

I do have a photo of the diaphragm, but let me look for a drawing of the diaphragm.  I may have sent it to OSN.

The Phoenix cars may be sought after, but they appear less accurate than the K-Line.

bob2 posted:

The Imron gives 4449 a gloss that it never had with Dulux enamel, at least not after a day on the road.  But the colors on 4449 are accurate, as are the Sunset colors.  Scale Craft had accurate Daylight colors.

I do have a photo of the diaphragm, but let me look for a drawing of the diaphragm.  I may have sent it to OSN.

The Phoenix cars may be sought after, but they appear less accurate than the K-Line.

bob2 is correct. Plus, the current colors on SP 4449 are an exact match for the original SP "color chips", which previously were maintained in the Lab at the SP Sacramento Locomotive Works. During the 1981 grand opening of the California State RR Museum in Sacramento, an elderly gentleman for the SP Shops Lab showed up with large envelops containing the three important colors "chips" of the SP Daylight paint styling. All three of his "color chips", which were 8X10 inch in size (kept in triple black light-proof envelopes), matched exactly the colors on 4449.

Also, for what it's worth, the up-dated/revised Daylight book by Robert J. Church has the correct Daylight color chips in the back of the book, which also includes the manufacturer's color number for each of the three important colors, i.e. the red, the orange, and the "lettering gray" which many people refer to incorrectly as silver. 

How recent?  I have the original, plus every other book Bob has published, including both Cab Forward books.

bob2 posted:

How recent?  I have the original, plus every other book Bob has published, including both Cab Forward books.

My autographed copy is copyrighted 2004.

bob2 posted:

How recent?  I have the original, plus every other book Bob has published, including both Cab Forward books.

But do you have his book on Turtles?!

Byrdie posted:

bob2 posted:

How recent?  I have the original, plus every other book Bob has published, including both Cab Forward books.

But do you have his book on Turtles?!

Different Robert J. Church. The author of many books about Southern Pacific locomotives (plus the Pacific Fruit Express), is Dr. Robert J. Church, who is/was a Dentist in the Sacramento, CA area. I've know him for more than 40 years.

I had Lionel aluminum streamliner passenger cars but I sold them and bought their "Madison" heavyweights.  I just think that they look better behind my Lionel daylight steamer. Note the daylight "mint" car behind the engine.

Lionelski posted:

I had Lionel aluminum streamliner passenger cars but I sold them and bought their "Madison" heavyweights.  I just think that they look better behind my Lionel daylight steamer. Note the daylight "mint" car behind the engine.

That looks like the Lionel no. 8307 traditional GS4 from 1983. Lionel got the colors right on that engine as well, and also those Madison cars. I assume the streamlined cars you mentioned were the 15" cars (also from 1983). The Madisons look great behind the engine (but then, many folks like the streamliners as well).

breezinup posted:

Lionelski posted:

I had Lionel aluminum streamliner passenger cars but I sold them and bought their "Madison" heavyweights.  I just think that they look better behind my Lionel daylight steamer. Note the daylight "mint" car behind the engine.

That looks like the Lionel no. 8307 traditional GS4 from 1983. Lionel got the colors right on that engine as well, and also those Madison cars. I assume the streamlined cars you mentioned were the 15" cars (also from 1983). The Madisons look great behind the engine (but then, many folks like the streamliners as well).

Breezinup,

Yup, the 8307 and, yup, the streamliners I mentioned were the 15" cars Lionel specifically made to go with it. The "madison" heavyweights Lionel made to go with their Daylight F3's.

I like both sets of passenger cars, but the other way around; streamliners with the F3's and heavyweights with the steamer.

So, am I hearing that The Golden Gate cars are more accurate as far as prototypical detailing goes? And possibly that the PAINT on the Lionel Cars are more accurate to the actual Prototype?

Thanks,

David

VintageClassics posted:

So, am I hearing that The Golden Gate cars are more accurate as far as prototypical detailing goes?

Absolutely YES!!!!

And possibly that the PAINT on the Lionel Cars are more accurate to the actual Prototype?

Just my opinion but, that is debatable. The Golden Gate Depot SP Daylight cars are correct, when compared to the original SP color chips. Since the Lionel, or K-Line, or MTH, or Weaver  SP Daylight cars are NOT prototypically correct, the color doesn't really matter, in my opinion!

 

Thanks,

David

Hot Water posted:

VintageClassics posted:

So, am I hearing that The Golden Gate cars are more accurate as far as prototypical detailing goes?

Absolutely YES!!!!

And possibly that the PAINT on the Lionel Cars are more accurate to the actual Prototype?

Just my opinion but, that is debatable. The Golden Gate Depot SP Daylight cars are correct, when compared to the original SP color chips. Since the Lionel, or K-Line, or MTH, or Weaver  SP Daylight cars are NOT prototypically correct, the color doesn't really matter, in my opinion!

 

Thanks,

David

 

Thanks Hot Water... Appreciate the heads up on this! 

I agree with Hot.  You want pretty, go with Lionel or K-Line.  You want close to correct - Sunset.  Your choice.

Hot Water posted:

bob2 posted:

How recent?  I have the original, plus every other book Bob has published, including both Cab Forward books.

My autographed copy is copyrighted 2004.

I was unaware there was a newer edition, with color photos to boot. My copy is from the 60's and in black and white. It's so old that it still lists 4449 as being on display in Oaks Park.....

bob2 posted:

I agree with Hot.  You want pretty, go with Lionel or K-Line.  You want close to correct - Sunset.  Your choice.

Well, K-Line's colors are no more accurate than Sunset's and very different from Lionel. They're far more like Sunset than Lionel.  By the way, MTH uses nearly the same colors as Lionel; apparently they also think they are closest to the real thing. Incidently, I asked my son, who has a degree in art and works as a graphic designer, what he thought. He said in his opinion the colors used by Sunset are different from the colors on the 4449 engine (he's also seen and photographed the engine in Portland), especially the shade of orange.  

But if a person can't tell the difference between this

and this

then it doesn't matter, and they should get whatever they like, regardless of color fidelity. 

Everybody is entitled to opinions.  Not everybody gets to see the color chips, or hold a model up against the real thing.  I can tell you that modern paint is different.  Imron has a wet look that just jumps out at you - as does just about any good catalyzed urethane paint.  Yellows and oranges have taken a hit because we cannot use chromium in paint any more.

That said, the 4449 is as close as is humanly possible to the colors applied in 1950, and Sunset's cars are as close to that as possible.  The Sunset cars are muted, as in not 100% glossy.  K-Line colors were high gloss, and my recollection is that they were close.  The car bodies were so far off that I wound up re-doing an observation and repainting/re-decaling it.  What an effort!

Here is my articulated coach.  It is not finished - no window material, no interior, no handrails - but the bodies are as accurate as any in O Scale.  They are "Speer" extrusions, and only off by exactly one corrugation.  You won't see it unless you count with a magnifying glass.  The diaphragm is four pieces of aluminum, two coil springs, two threaded dowels, and a painted ribbon.  It snaps into the carbody, and stays there because one of those aluminum pieces is the exact shape of the inside of the carbody extrusion.  I haven't found my drawing . . .

While I am at it, some guy in Sacramento many, many decades ago got some enamel from the shop, and did a string of B-C cars.  I have one, and it has that original enamel.  The B-C cars were not 100% accurate either, but they were close.  They did not have the alternating big and little corrugations, but they were at least inset, unlike most models in O Scale.  Here is the B-C car in SP shop enamel, alongside a Speer car with Scale Coat SP colors:

The one with the silver journals is the Speer car.  Here is the Speer extrusion, with some paint smeared on so you can see the corrugations.

Understand, I did all of my Daylight cars before Sunset brought in their Daylight efforts.  Most of my passenger cars get to a general level of assembly, then await grab irons, diaphragms, interiors, and underbody for such time as I no longer can make it to the airport - hopefully a very long time from now!

I have a set of the 18" MTH and the K-Line metal Daylight passenger cars.  Love them both!  Matt

bob2 posted:

. . . The diaphragm is four pieces of aluminum, two coil springs, two threaded dowels, and a painted ribbon.  It snaps into the carbody, and stays there because one of those aluminum pieces is the exact shape of the inside of the carbody extrusion.  I haven't found my drawing . . .

Thank you for posting this. The gap between your cars is a lot less than on my GGD articulated diner set - very nearly an inch although GGD supplied a bellows-type insert to fill it. For cars that run on O-72 it is problematic to create anything that looks prototypical.

bob2 posted:

 

That said, the 4449 is as close as is humanly possible to the colors applied in 1950, and Sunset's cars are as close to that as possible.  K-Line colors were high gloss, and my recollection is that they were close. 

 

It doesn't appear the K-Line was high gloss, and, looking at the orange color, it's a significantly lighter shade than the actual engine. 

As for color fidelity, just looking at the orange, all I'm saying is that the Sunset color and the color of the real engine don't appear to be very close. If someone thinks they are, that's fine. As they say, to each their own.  

It should be pointed out that one can NOT properly compare colors, especially Daylight colors, by using photographs. Back in the days of color film, the many variations in film emulsions from all the different manufacturers of color film, and film developing labs, not to mention the exposure and lighting/weather conditions at the time the photo was taken, produce vastly different color appearances. Just my opinion but, trying to compare photos of SP 4449 to any and all of the various models of Daylight locomotives and passenger cars, is a waste of time. For a true and accurate comparison, take one of your models to the Oregon Rail Heritage Foundation enginehouse in Portland, Oregon and place it on the real 4449, where both the real locomotive and your model is under the exact same light (either indoors or outdoors). 

Hi,

Comparing colors from photographs and on computer screens is an imprecise game. Colors change in different lighting conditions and from screen to screen and any graphic designer or photographer worth his weight will tell you this. Comparing the chips and the model to the real thing under same lighting conditions ensures accuracy and to me is a great standard, however, when you bring your model train inside under different lighting conditions, colors can change dramatically. At that point the colors simply become a matter of perception and what you like vs. what you don't like. Even the background you use for photographing the trains can sharply change your perception of the colors. Some cameras do a good job of taking photos in outside light and the same camera can do a poor job of taking photos with inside light. It's a mixed bag. Lighting on a layout rarely matches outside light but is something to strive for.

christopher N&W posted:

Comparing colors from photographs and on computer screens is an imprecise game. 

I agree completely. And I would be very interested if someone could hold a Sunset car up to the 4449 and compare them. I have never seen the Sunset cars. Nonetheless, I have seen many pictures of the Sunset cars, taken in all sorts of lighting conditions by different people, and many (many) pictures of the actual 4449 engine and cars, taken in all sorts of conditions, as well as seeing the actual engine on several occasions, and I haven't observed what I'd consider a color match between them. Of course, different photos of the real 4449 and cars have somewhat different color tones depending on lighting conditions and other factors. It also seemed to me that the Legacy GS4 and Lionel 18" passenger cars that I have were a very close match to the real 4449 I saw. 

I'm not sure there's anything to be gained by hitting this back and forth, although it's interesting to hear people's views. Ultimately, people should run what they like. Regardless, it's a beautiful train. My personal preference is the rich color that the current 4449 and it's cars have, but others may prefer something else.

breezinup posted:

christopher N&W posted:

Comparing colors from photographs and on computer screens is an imprecise game. 

I agree completely. And I would be very interested if someone could hold a Sunset car up to the 4449 and compare them. I have never seen the Sunset cars. Nonetheless, I have seen many pictures of the Sunset cars, taken in all sorts of lighting conditions by different people, and many (many) pictures of the actual 4449 engine and cars, taken in all sorts of conditions, as well as seeing the actual engine on several occasions, and I have never seen any images that could be considered a color match between them. It also seemed to me that the Legacy GS4 and Lionel 18" passenger cars that I have were a very close match to the real 4449. 

So,,,,,,,you personally have NEVER been witness to model comparisons to the real 4449? Yet you continue to debate the accuracy of Sunset/3rd Rail/Golden Gate Depot SP Daylight model passenger cars & GS-4 locomotives. Why???

I'm not sure there's anything to be gained by hitting this back and forth, although it's interesting to hear people's views.

Now THAT is a very good statement.

Ultimately, people should run what they like. Regardless, it's a beautiful train.

Hot Water posted:

breezinup posted:

christopher N&W posted:

Comparing colors from photographs and on computer screens is an imprecise game. 

I agree completely. And I would be very interested if someone could hold a Sunset car up to the 4449 and compare them. 

So,,,,,,,you personally have NEVER been witness to model comparisons to the real 4449? Yet you continue to debate the accuracy of Sunset/3rd Rail/Golden Gate Depot SP Daylight model passenger cars & GS-4 locomotives. 

 

Nope. Who has? I've never seen any pictures of this by anyone. It would be very interesting to see a Sunset car held up next to the 4449. And obviously I'm not the only one debating this without having witnessed a model comparison.  

breezinup posted:

Hot Water posted:

breezinup posted:

christopher N&W posted:

Comparing colors from photographs and on computer screens is an imprecise game. 

I agree completely. And I would be very interested if someone could hold a Sunset car up to the 4449 and compare them. 

So,,,,,,,you personally have NEVER been witness to model comparisons to the real 4449? Yet you continue to debate the accuracy of Sunset/3rd Rail/Golden Gate Depot SP Daylight model passenger cars & GS-4 locomotives. 

 

Nope. Who has?

I have.

I've never seen any pictures of this by anyone.

So, just because those folks that have brought their various models to SP 4449 for comparison, and did NOT post photos of the "event", it therefor didn't happen?

It would be very interesting to see a Sunset car held up next to the 4449.

OK, it happened, but there are probably no photos of the event. So,,,,,,,what does THAT mean? I know personally more than one 4449 crew member that has compared his locomotive and car/cars from Sunset/3rd Rail/Golden Gate Depot to the SP 4449. 

And obviously I'm not the only one debating this without having witnessed a model comparison  

Well, you MAY just be the "only one debating" this whole subject.