gunrunnerjohn posted:Personally, I'd opt to test the TMCC first, then a different Legacy base. My guess is if the TMCC works, the Legacy base is broken.
Yes, logically speaking, that makes sense, but he said that Matt already tested the Legacy w/ no problems........
Just one of those weird anomalies that can happen w/ complex electrical systems.
I think you miss my point, that test is insufficient. I suspect the layouts are quite different, and I've seen weak Legacy bases run a layout, but just have signal issues. With the amount of track that Elliot has, he needs a strong signal, and maybe more. The true test is a different base entirely running it. It will be even more imperative to try if the TMCC base works better, the signal from the TMCC base is typically less amplitude than my measured Legacy signal.
I measured two of my TMCC command bases, they had 4.9 VPP and 5.1 VPP outputs when connected to the same track as my Legacy measured over six volts.
We will see how much output Elliot measures on both Bases when my meter arrives. I expect it to arrive Saturday. In the meantime, he could scan the room with a portable AM radio and check for any low-resistance bridges between the track Common and earth ground (which would short out the command signal.)
That will be interesting information Dale. 
gunrunnerjohn posted:I think you miss my point, that test is insufficient. I suspect the layouts are quite different, and I've seen weak Legacy bases run a layout, but just have signal issues. With the amount of track that Elliot has, he needs a strong signal, and maybe more. The true test is a different base entirely running it. It will be even more imperative to try if the TMCC base works better, the signal from the TMCC base is typically less amplitude than my measured Legacy signal.
Ah, I see, thank you for clarifying. I didn't realize that signal output could vary that much from one legacy base to another. I figured if it works, it works the same as all the other Legacy bases.
Here's where we stand: the Legacy base has been disconnected and TMCC has been restored. The electrical bridge has been removed. All power supplies are plugged back in, and all engines wake up at rest. I was just under one section of the layout, and can see potential trouble spots in the ground bus. Those will have to be modified.
Dale, I think I might have an old AM radio around here, just gotta find it. HAHAHA. I thought I saw the instructions on your website, correct? There may be a lot of issues discovered as the room is laced with earth ground sources, and many locations have insulated track ground wires passing in close proximity to them.
GRJohn, I totally agree with your plan to proceed. When I have dealt with as many of the wiring issues as possible, we can reevaluate the TMCC signal. That's when it might be time to go for the signal amplifier. In the meantime, I have a lot of work to do.
Penn-Pacific posted:gunrunnerjohn posted:I think you miss my point, that test is insufficient. I suspect the layouts are quite different, and I've seen weak Legacy bases run a layout, but just have signal issues. With the amount of track that Elliot has, he needs a strong signal, and maybe more. The true test is a different base entirely running it. It will be even more imperative to try if the TMCC base works better, the signal from the TMCC base is typically less amplitude than my measured Legacy signal.
Ah, I see, thank you for clarifying. I didn't realize that signal output could vary that much from one legacy base to another. I figured if it works, it works the same as all the other Legacy bases.
Well that's the thing, it's not right if the signal is quite less than about 6 vac. But it's not uncommon for some of the bases to have low (broken) output. Something like 1 vac is what I've seen on a couple Legacy bases. They were sent back to Lionel and were repaired.
I suppose Legacy has the same 1 base only rule as TMCC ?
Gregg posted:I suppose Legacy has the same 1 base only rule as TMCC ?
Per layout? I believe so. That could get really confusing.
Perhaps a simple test is in order. Connect track wire and power only the Legacy base. Then apply track power. That would rule out a bad Y cable and add credence/ or disprove a low signal Legacy base. It worked fine for Matt as a standalone.
It appears in all of your tests, the TMCC base was connected with the Y cable.
Sorry Carl, I did that test yesterday without the "Y" cable. It didn't work.
Gregg posted:I suppose Legacy has the same 1 base only rule as TMCC ?
Most certainly! More than one Legacy/TMCC base connected to the rails will make it certain nothing will run right! 
This would make for a very good reality TV series. Like Goldrush on the Discovery Channel only with smart people.
OK guys, I decided to do one last set of tests. This was intended to be very thorough.
This is my outlet tester.
When the yellow and white lights go on, the wiring including the ground is correct.
This is the switched outlet under the layout into which the Legacy base gets plugged. The other plug is the TMCC base.
Here we have a good test.
My Legacy wall wart.
Plug undamaged.
Good wall wart in good outlet.
This is the location I have chosen to permanently place both bases.
This outlet is one in a long chain that goes around the aisles of the layout. It is on a different circuit from the switched one that the bases are plugged into. I plugged my small transformer into this one for the test.
The disconnected "Y" cable.
Both bases powered up, but not connected.
The test lead is attached to the U post on the Legacy base.
My test track for this experiment.
A small transformer, borrowed from my workbench.
A random engine grabbed from the layout. Note the brown wire tying the outside rails together.
Power up, lights on no movement. Matt was correct, the base works.
Now the "Y" cable is connected.
And now the TMCC base is part of the system.
Drum roll please!!!! And yes, that is a Cab-1 doing the work!
It still doesn't work on the layout, but there's no denying that it does work.
That was some nice low speed operation. I'm starting to see what I've been missing out on.
Elliot,
That was a good experiment. One thing I have noticed is the electrical outlet.
Is that metal conduit and electrical outlet boxes?
I take it they are wired like they would be here in the UK i.e. The metal conduit and boxes connected in to the Earth ground?
It might be worth repeating the experiment with the Bases powered from another supply. Ideally original house outlet in the wall.
Nick
Here in the US, the metal conduit can be used as the earth ground for the circuit. There is no separate conductor inside, just a hot (black) and a neutral (white) wire. The only time a green wire is required in metal, is inside flexible conduit.
None of the house voltage that attached to the layout is hard wired to the house. Instead, there is a bank of dedicated outlets where the various systems plug into, using a properly sized cord and plug. Then the first metal box has the ground wire bonded to it, sending the ground through the entire system.
I think we can forgo that alternate outlet test, since this is the location where I want and need it to work, and it does. I did think of one additional test that I should do. That is the simultaneous base and track power up test. There remains some confusion as to whether the base needs to be powered first in order to gain control of the track.
It's 2:30 AM over here. Time for bed. Enjoy your day Nick.
Fresh look in the morning, get some shut eye.
Just on my second cup of coffee nearly 09:00 here LOL.
Why I mentioned the metal conduit is that as I understand TMCC/Legacy is this will become a antenna for one half of the signal. I see it runs right above your tracks.
My thought is this might cause a issue. I think you can have to good a signal or if the wrong bare wire touches that conduit it will kill the signal.
Anyway I am definitely not a expert.
Maybe the other guys who have more knowledge will chip in.
Nick
Elliot,
Nick hit upon the other half of the signal. I had to go back to the beginning of your journey (2012-2013) posts to see the train room and the tables at the start.
All of the layout power and lighting wiring is in conduit. Did you do the same for all of the fluorescent ceiling fixtures?
If yes, you have 1/2 of signal circuit missing or blocked and using only the wiring in the walls.
Elliot, try repeating your separate transformer test but with the Legacy base connected to the layout instead of the test piece of Gargraves track. Turn on the base power (this should send signal to outside rails of the track and to your conduit) then apply power to the test track from the small transformer using the alligator clips. The locomotive should run under Legacy control since the radio signal will fill the room. If it doesn't then the signal is being degraded somewhere in the layout or conduit wiring.
If my TMCC base power is turned on (with the base connected to the layout), I can run TMCC locos in command mode on my work table or in my paint booth using a small transformer and alligator clips.
One "final" test, though I suspect it will pass. The ground prong of the Legacy base should be connected to the outside barrel of the power output plug of the brick. I've actually seen this be bad on a TMCC brick.
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