@harmonyards posted:We’re not seeing this widespread as we first thought, …..so far only the early Legacy K4 has an issue,…
Pat
Hi Pat,
When you say "early Legacy K4," that doesn't mean the pre-war version, I'm assuming?? Just early off of the line? If I/we take a picture of what we have, can you identify from the pic if it's a possible lemon?
Thanks! You're an awesome ambassador of this hobby. We're lucky...
@Larry Mullen posted:Hi Pat,
When you say "early Legacy K4," that doesn't mean the pre-war version, I'm assuming?? Just early off of the line? If I/we take a picture of what we have, can you identify from the pic if it's a possible lemon?Thanks! You're an awesome ambassador of this hobby. We're lucky...
Early as in the first Legacy versions.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:The Legacy K4 has the motor shaft rear facing, that's why it's a problem!
It looks just like the K-Line when you take them apart.
Most steamers have the shaft facing forward, don't know why they did this, it appears they copied the K-line chassis.
Does this mean the K-line steam engines also have this problem?
@prrhorseshoecurve posted:Does this mean the K-line steam engines also have this problem?
No, they’re built differently than the Legacy models…..what’s confusing is when Lionel obtained the KLine tooling, they modified the existing gear box on the KLine tooling for Legacy controls……this is where the problem arose…..as of right now, the only known for sure issue is with 1st Gen Legacy K4s ……
Pat
I popped open my 2019 run of the Legacy ATSF 3751 class Northern to check the gearbox. I took it apart to lube it when I first bought it but forgot what it looked like. There is a spacer next to the worm wheel to keep it centered. You can see it to the right of the worm shaft in this photo.
It appears that the issue of the worm wheel shifting may be limited to the early Legacy K4. So either the K4 gearbox was designed without the spacer to keep the worm wheel centered or the manufacture forgot to add it when assembling. One would have to open more former K-Line tooled locomotives, with the forward facing small 385 style motor with the worm pressed to the motor, to see if Lionel corrected the gearbox issue in the later runs.
But, based on this thread, it sounds like the Legacy steam equipped with this multiple gear setup in their gearbox and a worm shaft separate from the motor aren't affected by this issue. So far the gearboxes on these locomotives have had a spacer to keep the worm wheel centered under the worm shaft.
Great work Pete & Lou, thanks for the pics and the confirmation,…..so far, the Legacy Mohawks, Legacy Northerns, and the Legacy Berks ( KLine rebuilt Berks) are all ok….I’m not seeing anything that looks like it might crap out in any of those pics…..no??…
Pat
@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:Which K4 was it that Rick O had, one of the long haul tenders? I know he said one of the Mike's and the H10 which was in his video.
I had the first Legacy k4 from 2011. The shaft actually started to oblong the bushing on one side of the chassis.
That's the first heavy Mike in my video but the open gearbox is the H10. I haven't checked the heavy Mike yet , but on the h10 you can see the shaft shifting inward and outward. The heavy Mike does not have this thrust play in the shaft so I'm hoping it's o.k.
I can't add a spacer to the h10 from the bottom. After seeing the photos from the "experts" I may have to pop the top of the gearbox.
Would a delrin washer from the local hardware store be adequate?
To install any type of washer you would have to press the shaft at least half way out. Doable but would require a fair amount of disassembly.
Pete
@RickO posted:I had the first Legacy k4 from 2011. The shaft actually started to oblong the bushing on one side of the chassis.
That's the first heavy Mike in my video but the open gearbox is the H10. I haven't checked the heavy Mike yet , but on the h10 you can see the shaft shifting inward and outward. The heavy Mike does not have this thrust play in the shaft so I'm hoping it's o.k.
I can't add a spacer to the h10 from the bottom. After seeing the photos from the "experts" I may have to pop the top of the gearbox.
Would a delrin washer from the local hardware store be adequate?
Rick, so the H10 is a possibly a trouble maker?…..I recall you having an issue,…I assume you haven’t pulled the shell off?…as far as a plastic washer, ….that might be a band aid fix IMO, ….I’d like to develop permanent repeatable solutions for these locomotives so none are left behind,….as with the early Legacy K4s, that fix is going to be a longevity repair…..can you post up the pics you took of that model?..I recall you had some pics?…no??….
Pat
@harmonyards posted:Great work Pete & Lou, thanks for the pics and the confirmation,…..so far, the Legacy Mohawks, Legacy Northerns, and the Legacy Berks ( KLine rebuilt Berks) are all ok….I’m not seeing anything that looks like it might crap out in any of those pics…..no??…
Pat
I don't see anything that looks like it'll fail under normal use. The multi gear setup MTH uses in it's articulated gearboxes appears a little more rugged, but not crazily so.
I still prefer the late 90s/early 2000s TMCC and MTH gearbox (all years) with the one large worm wheel, large worm shaft, and big bearings. Those things are tanks.
@harmonyards posted:Rick, so the H10 is a possibly a trouble maker?…..I recall you having an issue,…I assume you haven’t pulled the shell off
Pat
I haven't had a problem but there is some side to side slop in there. These photos are taken after removing the bottom plate that this tooling has. Not the best, hard to get good lighting in there. the first photo is the worm wheel all the way out. I believe this is where it is shoved when running in the forward direction. The second is with it all the way in, which of course occurs in reverse.
@RickO posted:I haven't had a problem but there is some side to side slop in there. These photos are taken after removing the bottom plate that this tooling has. Not the best, hard to get good lighting in there. the first photo is the worm wheel all the way out. I believe this is where it is shoved when running in the forward direction. The second is with it all the way in, which of course occurs in reverse.
Judging by those photos, …..that’s a lot…….I can see the spur gear appear, and disappear………I’d have to say by these pics, they’ll need some help….
Pat
@RickO posted:I had the first Legacy k4 from 2011. The shaft actually started to oblong the bushing on one side of the chassis.
That's the first heavy Mike in my video but the open gearbox is the H10. I haven't checked the heavy Mike yet , but on the h10 you can see the shaft shifting inward and outward. The heavy Mike does not have this thrust play in the shaft so I'm hoping it's o.k.
I can't add a spacer to the h10 from the bottom. After seeing the photos from the "experts" I may have to pop the top of the gearbox.
Would a delrin washer from the local hardware store be adequate?
Okay, so the Heavy Mike Rick is talking about is in the 2014 offering, 6-81188 NYC 9506 2014 and the H10 is definitely in the 2018 run since that is where they come from. I'm curious though about the 2015 offering of the Consolidations that were offered.
@harmonyards posted:Judging by those photos, …..that’s a lot…….I can see the spur gear appear, and disappear………I’d have to say by these pics, they’ll need some help….
Pat
Well Pat, it looks like my H10 will definitely be making a trip down to see you at some point in time.
@harmonyards posted:Judging by those photos, …..that’s a lot…….I can see the spur gear appear, and disappear………I’d have to say by these pics, they’ll need some help….
Pat
From those pictures, I'd say about one more fraction of an inch and you'll have gear grindings in the bottom of the gearbox!
@gunrunnerjohn posted:From those pictures, I'd say about one more fraction of an inch and you'll have gear grindings in the bottom of the gearbox!
John, do you have a Lionel H10 or was it MTH?
Pat, your work is fantastic as always! If it helps at all, feel free to pop open the k-line K4 I sent you for a pitman upgrade as a comparison.
Interesting. I 2-railed a couple K-Line locomotives when they first appeared on the scene. I was not impressed with the gearbox at all - the worm gear was just too small. But I used the stock gearbox, after turning things around and putting a Pittman in the firebox. OK for light duty, like a circuit around the oval once a month.
The Museum got a 2-rail Berk directly from K-Line. It apparently made it for a year before the worm gear failed. One of the locals hobbed a new gear for it, and then I lost track of mainenance issues down there. I was happy fixing things, but unwilling to endure the parking issues.
Shame - one of the nice things about 3-rail steam has always been the incredibly robust gearing. My 763 will never ever die of gear failure.
We could use more input from DIY guys, and techs alike that can open and examine these Legacy models,….this way, at the very top of the thread on the first post, we’ll identify those models that can benefit from the fix, and have that list in an easy to understand format…..also, I can edit the title so it’s comprehensive, and easy to find in a search,…….it’d be nice to have the list in one place, rather than scoured throughout the thread,…..so if you have a legacy, ( and it’s out of warranty) and you don’t mind taking a peek like Pete & Lou did, that information will be invaluable to the thread……
Pat
@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:John, do you have a Lionel H10 or was it MTH?
I have two of the newer Legacy H10's, I'll have to peek inside...
Much appreciated John.
Last I stopped by your layout, you had one of the 2011-12 run of the light Mikes. If you could take a peak inside that, that’d be fantastic!
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