Mike, it could be that they are busy and they haven't had a chance to get to look at your engine. You could check in with them maybe, as well as maybe tell them about this exact topic. Pat's solution is sensible and easy. Some others have posted about fixes for issues that have come up and those have been shared, like the Atlantic's and the loose wires inside rubbing on the motor, and let's not forget the Moguls.
Not trying to inmate frustration with the guys in Jersey, I'm sure they're busy and will get to my engine when they can.
This k-4 is probably my favorite locomotive. I am hoping it can return to the roster in good working order. And oh yea,
I have a Central Vermont mogul too.
@PRRMike posted:Not trying to inmate frustration with the guys in Jersey, I'm sure they're busy and will get to my engine when they can.
This k-4 is probably my favorite locomotive. I am hoping it can return to the roster in good working order. And oh yea,
I have a Central Vermont mogul too.
If you do get up with them, and as long as the gears aren’t completely trashed, your chassis is repairable, ….no need to buy a whole new chassis, if your repairman needs assistance, they can contact me. Info can be obtained via profile …..
Pat
Thanks Pat
@harmonyards posted:.The fix can only be applied to those locomotives that have not totally destroyed the top worm wheel, or totally wallered out the intermediate shaft beyond repair ….it can however, be a preemptive first strike package, in other words, new or lightly used engines will benefit from the fix, as this part will keep the gear centered. Testing shows zero additional wear using Mobil 1 synthetic grease in the
Pat
Hey Pat, just a thought. I haven't heard anything from yourself (or John) regarding any wear of the secondary shaft bushings in the chassis.
It appears to me that much of the load/torque is taken on the axle gear side of the bushing. This is the side that severe wear of the bushing occurred on my k4. The chassis bushing on the opposite side was like new.
I noticed this with the unscientific method of gently rocking the loco back and forth while it was off, and observing the shaft rocking side to side in the bushing which was clearly worn oblong to the naked eye.
I think the gear centering is only one potential issue with this design.
It'll be interesting to see if these bushings hold up years down the road as run times add up. Especially since most folks are unaware of them. The manual does not even recommend lubrication.
@RickO posted:Hey Pat, just a thought. I haven't heard anything from yourself (or John) regarding any wear of the secondary shaft bushings in the chassis.
It appears to me that much of the load/torque is taken on the axle gear side of the bushing. This is the side that severe wear of the bushing occurred on my k4. The chassis bushing on the opposite side was like new.
I noticed this with the unscientific method of gently rocking the loco back and forth while it was off, and observing the shaft rocking side to side in the bushing which was clearly worn oblong to the naked eye.
I think the gear centering is only one potential issue with this design.
It'll be interesting to see if these bushings hold up years down the road as run times add up. Especially since most folks are unaware of them. The manual does not even recommend lubrication.
Rick, I’ve made note of this issue based on what your findings were on the initial post I made way back on page 1 ……..the only locomotives I can for surely save are those that don’t have a trashed bushing and trashed gears,…..The two I’ve added the fix to do not have a destroyed bushing….AMOF, David Ross’s 2011 K4s is making laps as we speak, tugging 12 cars,……I have the gear box crammed with Mobil 1 synthetic grease, and drops of 75-140 gear oil on those bushings …….we’ll let her run off and on couple more days and then open her up and see what the parts look like……so far she’s happy, smoke is obviously turned off, but amp draws are in the dirt, so that tells me the “fix” isn’t being a parasitic drag……but yes, to answer your question, if the bushing is gone, it’s game, set, match,….can’t over cook it, can’t under cook it……
Pat
Well, my two K4s are now shelf queens until I get them "fixed". They don't have much run time so I hope they are still good.
I went over the posts again and did not see any of our artisans saying they will accept these to be fixed. Guess I will contact them and see who will do it.
@CAPPilot posted:Well, my two K4s are now shelf queens until I get them "fixed". They don't have much run time so I hope they are still good.
I went over the posts again and did not see any of our artisans saying they will accept these to be fixed. Guess I will contact them and see who will do it.
Ron, I’m doing the fix ……I mentioned this on the very first post,…..( or so I thought I did ) …but anyways, yes, I will be fixing these and all of the other Legacy gearbox troublemakers ……..I’m flooded with work at the moment, and the K4’s are pouring in,…..contact me via profile, and we’ll get you in the que if you’d like …..The beta tester locomotive is doing fine, and I’m 100% confident I have a solid, reliable, and most importantly, a fix worthy of longevity…..
Pat
@harmonyards posted:Ron, I’m doing the fix ……I mentioned this on the very first post,…..( or so I thought I did ) …but anyways, yes, I will be fixing these and all of the other Legacy gearbox troublemakers ……..I’m flooded with work at the moment, and the K4’s are pouring in,…..contact me via profile, and we’ll get you in the que if you’d like …..The beta tester locomotive is doing fine, and I’m 100% confident I have a solid, reliable, and most importantly, a fix worthy of longevity…..
Pat
Yeah, the fix will happen. When things are figured out, and other projects end I'll be sending whatever needs fixing like my H10 as that is the for sure one that needs fixing.
I woke up this morning with a delightful cold kicking my behind, so I haven't done much today. Maybe tomorrow if I feel better I'll see about looking if I can see anything in the K4 with the Long Haul Tender. Like I said though, if I don't feel I can handle the taking apart, I won't.
Also, fellas,….there’s another competent machinist that’s contacted me offline that has been following this thread as well,….he’s investigating the Mike’s and so far he’s not seeing a fat bushing holding that worm wheel on center like we’d want …..still early in the diagnosis, so stay tuned, and nobody panic just yet,…..if he feels these need a fix, I’ll get the model number he’s working on, and Dave can correlate this into the list….if these are a problem, I’ll develop a similar fix as the K4’s ……
Pat
Great to hear, Pat! Bless your buddy.
Whatever the case, it’ll help me decide what to do with my Mikado.
@harmonyards posted:Ron, I’m doing the fix ……Pat
Pat, Thanks. I'll contact you.
Ok boys & girls, ….I’ve had some great correspondences with a buddy & fellow machinist in regards to the Mikados, ……specifically, the 2012 model year issue,….after some careful measurements, and some back & forth, these Mikados have the same set up as the K4s’s …..so in other words, the Mikes could potentially suffer the same fate as the K4’s ……again, our example for inspection is a 2012 model……later on, I’ll get some pics of the inspected model, and post up findings…..
Let’s jump back for a second, and talk about where this started, and what I feel is going on, and hopefully shed some light for folks,…..when we looked at a couple K4s’s, that were already damaged, what I noticed is the bushing they used to keep the worm wheel on track in the center where it belongs, can literally dig itself into the intermediate shaft bushing. ….I believe both the spacer bushing and the shaft bushing eat one another, not just a one sided game ……the combination of wear is what results in the shaft walk…….from an engineering stand point, the intermediate shaft bushing can not withstand being attacked from a side load….it’s strength is only in the shaft riding inside of it on a thin film of lubricant……in a nutshell, and to put it in layman’s terms, the shaft spacer and the shaft bushing are eating one another…..
Dave, can you add the 2012 Mikes to the fail list?….please?…😉
Pat
The only outlier being. It seems the k4 is the only model seeing catastrophic damage?. Lionel has had multiple reruns of Mike's every few years.
I would like to think these Mike's would be showing up with grinding gearboxes by now.
While there's no question the design is poor. Is it possible that the composition of the intermediate shaft bushing is simply too soft? Thus resulting in the failure your describing, as well as the excessive bushing wear I experienced on my K4.
I literally had bronze filings on the side of my k4 chassis.
I'm not questioning anything your telling us Pat. Rather, I'm just praying for a miracle.
Has anyone oppened up one of the 2021 light mikados? I have one but I'm not sure how to go about opening it up or how easy it would be.
@RickO posted:The only outlier being. It seems the k4 is the only model seeing catastrophic damage?. Lionel has had multiple reruns of Mike's every few years.
I would like to think these Mike's would be showing up with grinding gearboxes by now.
While there's no question the design is poor. Is it possible that the composition of the intermediate shaft bushing is simply too soft? Thus resulting in the failure your describing, as well as the excessive bushing wear I experienced on my K4.
I literally had bronze filings on the side of my k4 chassis.
I'm not questioning anything your telling us Pat. Rather, I'm just praying for a miracle.
I’m just pointing out the obvious Rick, ….yes it’s quite possible the K4’s suffer an ill fate from metallurgy, however, the fixes I’m proposing are minimalistic, not invasive at all, only requiring a trip to and from…..if the potential for a future failure is there, I’m going to make note of it on here, and all of y’all can decide for yourselves what to do, or not …..it’s a case by case study, with some of the brightest minds outside of manufacturing…….( not me, I’m just the wrench 🤣🤣🤣) …..anyways, my fix isn’t expensive, and it will prevent issues in the future…..as noted, there’s already quite a family of locomotives where the folks at the big L have installed a much larger spacer, and those engines require no actions…the entire thread is subject to interpretation, so take away what y’all want or don’t want,….if I see a potential issue, I’m gonna call it out,….
Pat
@RickO posted:The only outlier being. It seems the k4 is the only model seeing catastrophic damage?. Lionel has had multiple reruns of Mike's every few years.
I would like to think these Mike's would be showing up with grinding gearboxes by now.
While there's no question the design is poor. Is it possible that the composition of the intermediate shaft bushing is simply too soft? Thus resulting in the failure your describing, as well as the excessive bushing wear I experienced on my K4.
I literally had bronze filings on the side of my k4 chassis.
I'm not questioning anything your telling us Pat. Rather, I'm just praying for a miracle.
Also Rick, please don’t take any of what I replied the wrong way,…..you’re one the fellas that brought this issue into the lime light, so your input is not only valuable, it’s depended on,….😉……in a nutshell, I’ll present the facts I find, and every one can decide for themselves what’s right …..
Pat
@harmonyards posted:Also Rick, please don’t take any of what I replied the wrong way,
Pat
Not at all Pat!
I'm just thankful we have talented folks like yourself on this forum. That can fix/ repair /upgrade these toys. In most cases, better than new.
Your an asset to the hobby as well as the forum.
@naresar posted:Has anyone oppened up one of the 2021 light mikados? I have one but I'm not sure how to go about opening it up or how easy it would be.
I have one of the brand new Pacific's that I opened and every thing looked good.
check my original reply HERE
based off of this I would hope that this issue was eventually taken care of but Pat is working to find out where the time period is where this issue started up until it was taken care of.
@zhubl posted:I have one of the brand new Pacific's that I opened and every thing looked good.
check my original reply HERE
based off of this I would think that this issue was eventually taken care of but Pat is working to find out where the time period is where this issue started up until it was taken care of.
One would think, but don’t take anything as gospel till the fat lady sings…..change your reply from “ you think “ to “ you hope” …..let’s just present the facts on this thread,….we can’t thank you enough for opening your new Pacific,…..that puts that particular model to bed once and for all,….last we’d want to do is cloud up the thread with a bunch of innuendos and speculations,….at the present, we’re just picking off those locomotives that either are a problem, or could potentially have a problem based on what gear box design we see inside….no guessing here,…it’s kinda working in this direction: they’re all guilty until proven innocent….😉
Pat
