@harmonyards posted:And a short video of reverse ….slow and smooth …..like I said, really need to also lay credit to Norm, as I utilized his thoughts in implementing a better fix ….So these L1’s can be made rock solid,…..
Pat
Wow what a difference! Thanks for the great work Pat. Between this and the H10, I'm glad we could get these steamers back in proper order.
Great work Pat! I think the engineer and fireman should be Stan Laurel and Oliver Hardy. "Another fine mesh you've gotten me into!" 
I hope no issues with the new Lionel PRR M1 next year.
Maybe Lionel will take down some notes from this thread.
@cswalter posted:I hope no issues with the new Lionel PRR M1 next year.
Maybe Lionel will take down some notes from this thread.
We discussed the M1 already in this thread,…..as said a few times now, ….the M1 shares the same main frame as the Mohawk, …….the Mohawk in Legacy form is a pretty stout locomotive, ….given they have a track record of reusing existing tooling, you guys wanting a M1 should be fine ……colors?…well, that’s the 64 dollar question…y’all are on your own, ….I don’t know who’s in charge of colors at Concord, but they need to go to the optometrist immediately…..
Pat
@harmonyards posted:We discussed the M1 already in this thread,…..as said a few times now, ….the M1 shares the same main frame as the Mohawk, …….the Mohawk in Legacy form is a pretty stout locomotive, ….given they have a track record of reusing existing tooling, you guys wanting a M1 should be fine ……colors?…well, that’s the 64 dollar question…y’all are on your own, ….I don’t know who’s in charge of colors at Concord, but they need to go to the optometrist immediately…..
Pat
Good to know.
I will be buying one of those.
Thank You.
@harmonyards posted:They are stock MTH figures from the later PS2 & all PS3 Premier & Railking steam….you can find them at mthpartsandsales.com ….heck of a value considering how detailed they are!….here’s a sample,….click on service parts, and search “figures’ loads come up,….
Pat
You should show the former crew Pat.
I sure can Dave, they’re still in the trash can!….😂😂😂🤣
Pat
I’ve used MTH crew as well…
thanks!
- Mario
Those two dudes are true professionals, …..unlike the wannabes Lionel uses! 😝
Pat
@harmonyards posted:Those two dudes are true professionals, …..unlike the wannabes Lionel uses! 😝
Pat
I'll have you know, when it comes to safety on the rails.
The Lionel figures are superior due to the high level of visibility the have with their large bug eyes. 😉
Glad to hear this worked. Shimming the motor is a bit easier than slotting the cover. The motor being pulled into the gearbox in reverse helps explain how the failure only happens in reverse, at least in my examples. This is what led to my suspicion of there being a thrust issue vs. an engagement problem.
When I first got the 1369 it couldn't even back a 20-something car train without locking up. When it came back from Lionel, it would only lock when being stalled in reverse (which could occur if one of the rollers dropped into one of my #5s). Upon inspection I found that there is a shim on the gearbox top that may or may not have been there since the beginning, similar to earlier pics on this thread. I also found what appeared to be a thin washer that was cut in half and inserted under the two rear screws. Removing the shim/washers would cause the gearbox to be too tight in mesh, adding more shims would cause the gears to not engage well (was also noisy).
I still think Lionel meant well with this design whether it's this direct drive style or the Canon type. When set up correctly it has very little friction and lash. Back-drivable seems to be a byproduct of this effort according to some but think of it this way - your locomotives experience 'back-drive' more commonly in other situations that doesn't involve you pushing your engine around by hand. Running a heavy train downhill and/or decelerating rapidly can put a back load into the drivetrain. More commonly back drive would come from other engines involved in lashups.
In any case, all's well that ends well.
@harmonyards posted:I sure can Dave, they’re still in the trash can!….😂😂😂🤣
Pat
Did they get buried with all their other brothers?
@Norm Charbonneau posted:Glad to hear this worked. Shimming the motor is a bit easier than slotting the cover. The motor being pulled into the gearbox in reverse helps explain how the failure only happens in reverse, at least in my examples. This is what led to my suspicion of there being a thrust issue vs. an engagement problem.
When I first got the 1369 it couldn't even back a 20-something car train without locking up. When it came back from Lionel, it would only lock when being stalled in reverse (which could occur if one of the rollers dropped into one of my #5s). Upon inspection I found that there is a shim on the gearbox top that may or may not have been there since the beginning, similar to earlier pics on this thread. I also found what appeared to be a thin washer that was cut in half and inserted under the two rear screws. Removing the shim/washers would cause the gearbox to be too tight in mesh, adding more shims would cause the gears to not engage well (was also noisy).
I still think Lionel meant well with this design whether it's this direct drive style or the Canon type. When set up correctly it has very little friction and lash. Back-drivable seems to be a byproduct of this effort according to some but think of it this way - your locomotives experience 'back-drive' more commonly in other situations that doesn't involve you pushing your engine around by hand. Running a heavy train downhill and/or decelerating rapidly can put a back load into the drivetrain. More commonly back drive would come from other engines involved in lashups.
In any case, all's well that ends well.
It’ll be interesting & important to add your fix & POV on this issue Norm, ….I’m never too old to learn, & being armed with knowledge is 99% of the battle …..In the case of Alex W.’s & two others, I can provide the shims by thickness I used to get it to smooth out…..I slotted Dave’s and then added a 2mm “locking screw “ ( and 4 others that way too ) which achieved the same result, but obviously was a lot more work. …..the stock motor mount screws are way too short to reuse when shimming the motor off the mount, but a couple of turns with a 3-48 tap on the motor solved that issue and I was able to use off the shelf hardware……I don’t stock enough of the 3mm hardware used to mount Mabuchi’s ….3-48 flat heads do a perfect job ….I can provide the dimensions on those as well, …..keep us posted if you don’t mind….
Pat
@RickO posted:I'll have you know, when it comes to safety on the rails.
The Lionel figures are superior due to the high level of visibility the have with their large bug eyes. 😉
Agreed, ….Lionel’s engine crew hiring requirements specifically state “ must have eyes larger than a softball” …….
Pat
I printed some motor shims the other day for the 1369 and have gotten the gearbox to be less susceptible to locking up in a situation where the engine might stall in reverse. (This should be a rare thing now since the most likely stall situation was when I’d drop a roller into of my #5s which I mostly cured by printing more stout and secure pickup roller mounts.) It now plays very nicely with the 1343 in a doubleheader.
Excuse the crappy vid grabs. I printed the shims in a few different thicknesses - .3mm, .5mm, 1mm and 2mm. I tried a few and found that the .3mm seemed to work best. For what it’s worth I could simulate the lockup in reverse on the bench by manually turning the flywheel and holding the drivers tight by hand. 
Bad quality grab here but hopefully one can see that the worm is a multiple (4?) start vs. the more common double start. It’s amazing how much they changed in these gearboxes. As you can see, the worm threads are pretty short and one would wonder if they had a bit more thread the worm could stay centered across the first input gear.
Nice Norm, ….an elegant approach for sure!…did it seem to smooth out reverse as well? I’ve had a few that would not only lock up, but seemed to stutter just a wee bit in reverse,…..after shimming, I definitely got rid of the lock up, and I did have to “run in” a few of them to get reverse to be nice & smooth,….
Pat
@Norm Charbonneau posted:I printed some motor shims the other day for the 1369 and have gotten the gearbox to be less susceptible to locking up in a situation where the engine might stall in reverse. (This should be a rare thing now since the most likely stall situation was when I’d drop a roller into of my #5s which I mostly cured by printing more stout and secure pickup roller mounts.) It now plays very nicely with the 1343 in a doubleheader.
Excuse the crappy vid grabs. I printed the shims in a few different thicknesses - .3mm, .5mm, 1mm and 2mm. I tried a few and found that the .3mm seemed to work best. For what it’s worth I could simulate the lockup in reverse on the bench by manually turning the flywheel and holding the drivers tight by hand.
Bad quality grab here but hopefully one can see that the worm is a multiple (4?) start vs. the more common double start. It’s amazing how much they changed in these gearboxes. As you can see, the worm threads are pretty short and one would wonder if they had a bit more thread the worm could stay centered across the first input gear.
Any chance you would share those stl's so we could print our shim's?
@Shawn_Chronister posted:Any chance you would share those stl's so we could print our shim's?
I second that, I have one coming in for the same complaint. Nice to see that there's a solution. FWIW, this one has already been back to Lionel and they couldn't find anything wrong. 
It also has a bad smoke fan motor, but since I have to take it apart anyway, that will be easy to add to the list.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:I second that, I have one coming in for the same complaint. Nice to see that there's a solution. FWIW, this one has already been back to Lionel and they couldn't find anything wrong.
So I guess that means that the bad gear lash is built to spec lol!
I take delivery of my I1 in a few weeks if it's not a complete disaster and then I'm done with the new stuff.
From colors to gearboxes. I don't understand how they consistently forget ,what " worked " before.
They get a golden opportunity with the MTH tooling and then trip and fall all over the place.
@RickO posted:So I guess that means that the bad gear lash is built to spec lol!
I take delivery of my I1 in a few weeks if it's not a complete disaster and then I'm done with the new stuff.
From colors to gearboxes. I don't understand how they consistently forget ,what " worked " before.
They get a golden opportunity with the MTH tooling and trip and fall all over the place.
They didn’t forget.
There’s a thread elsewhere about the changes made to the former MTH RailKing 2-8-0 Consolidation they picked up for LC sets. It’s pretty unbelievable the hacking that was done.
It’s all about the bottom line.
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