Lionel Made in America Cars

>>The following has just been received from one or our wholesalers:

12/10/12

Sounds like the supplier has a bunch of them in the warehouse and wants to move them out

I got a kick out of reading that, too.  "Instant collectibles" indeed!

I can't imagine a reputable/knowledgeable dealer out there who would fall for that ploy.

Agreed it's a sales gimmick, but I can see one side of it as a collector.

WAAAYYYY down the line, there could be an interest in the time Lionel tried this experiment to make a few items in the USA again.  It starts with the Presidential cars (the secoond time around) and includes a few holiday cars for that year before the company that made them went out of business.

What would be the total number of different cars that would "complete" a collection of these?  Off the top of my head, I know the Presidents, the Charlie Brown cars (less the boxcar in the set), and several other cars (maybe 5 not previously mentioned?) from this year's Christmas catalog.

I'm guessing it's less than 15 cars to have a "complete" set of these cars.  (not that I'm trying for this, at least not now)

-Dave

Collectable, schmectable...

There's nothing saying that Lionel won't look for another US builder after the court releases their tooling.

Rusty

"Always in motion is the future...."

Could be that this gets tried again, but with the initial attempt that failed to work out and this one that was successful for maybe a year(with the manufacturing company ultimately filing for baknruptcy), I doubt there are tons of capable companies lining up to do this for an affordable cost. (basing this timeframe on when they probably formed the partnership up until now, actual release of items has probably all been over 4-5 months)

-Dave

I don't recall the "Made in Mexico" stuff being worth any more or less than the Made in USA stuff from the MPC era.

Under the wrappings, these things are still 6464 boxcars, the value is in the decoration.  Colletors collect the object, not where it was made.

I wouldn't bet my retirement on them.

Rusty

I never said they would be more valuable, just a collectable subset.  There is a difference. 

>>>I don't recall the "Made in Mexico" stuff being worth any more or less than the Made in USA stuff from the MPC era.<<<

I suppose since up to now Lionel only delivered about half the order, those actually interested in the cars, not the speculation around it would do well to buy them now...Shows how difficult it is to restart American production and be competitive after its been offshored. With healhcare laws looming large, it's probably impossible.  

Joe

I guess the project was not profitable enough to continue operations. Maybe Lionel may want to take a stab at it and see if they can do the manufacturing without the red ink.

I suspect Nolan Plastics had problems before signing the contract with Lionel.  The reasons for filing for bankruptcy don't happen overnight.

Rusty

Saw some of the Presidential cars on eBay for $89.00, don't take too long does it?

And so it begins:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/LIONEL...sd%3D370708627193%26

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lionel...;hash=item416f276302

Jerry

I suspect Nolan Plastics had problems before signing the contract with Lionel.  The reasons for filing for bankruptcy don't happen overnight.

Rusty

I would have thought that Lionel's lawyers would have done a complete financial on the company before signing a contract.

As depressed, repetitive and tumultuous the O guage market has become, I'm actually surprised Lionel themselves survived this long.

Joe

Yea, like that always works!!

Due diligence isn't infallible.  Even in this so-called "information age" financial and operational data can be concealed, especially if the company is privately held.

I'm not accusing Nolan Plastics of cooking the books, just that they might have been having some problems before accepting the contract.

Rusty

LOL!

That second listing in Jerry's post is our local shop. We pulled what we thought was a ridiculous number out of the air as a joke for that listing when the news broke. Looks like we didn't make it ridiculous enough! Amazing - just like in the late 80s with some MPC items!

For those that might be tempted to treat toy trains like a commodities market again, check what happened to those peak 1980 prices over a very short time. 

Jim

Jim, I'll give you $20. bucks for it. Atleast I made an offer.

Be patient, Ed, and you and I both know that's right where they'll be someday in the not too distant future.

Jim

Nolan Plastics. Exactly what did they do?

Did they only produce the plain gray or whatever color body for Lionel.

Did they actually paint the body with graphics for Lionel.

Did they assemble a complete box car for Lionel.

Yes, yes, yes.  They did all of the above.

That Christmas car is up to $152. It has 26 bids on it. Crazy

Get your bid in NOW, Eddie!  It's a valuable collectible and sure to be worth thousands in the future! 

I don't know if these cars are going to hold their price or not, but there is a drift to bring production back to the US. I heard on the radio news that Apple is going to bring production of some of their products back to the states.

It seems that the off shore thing is not all it was ten years ago and some companies are having second thoughts. So maybe Lionel will continue in this direction.

It's hard to say why any one company gets into trouble today. You would be shocked at how many small businesses have one foot in the grave and another on a banana peal.

Our beloved Lionel's doors are probably open only because the outfit that owns them needs the write off.

If the rest of the shipment is held up until after Christmas, lets say late February, you could see them for $25 each at York.

or 

If the situation is resolved this week, you could see the rest of the shipment in your LHS at regular prices before Christmas.

or

The only way I can see these cars selling for astronomical figures is if only a tiny portion of the whole run gets produced and/or delivered.

If I were betting I would bet on the first scenario.

Lionel LLC,

Thank you for the information pertaining to Nolan Plastics.

I am sure Lionel and many many Lionel dealers would like to be selling these cars now, probably a pretty good seller this time of year, not so much after 12/25.

I am also sure there are many people like me who collect and operate the Lionel Christmas cars. i have been buying them since my first son was born 15 years ago. I have quite a nice Christmas unit train running on my layout. Its part of our Christmas tradition, and I wanted to buy this car, especially this one, being made in the US for the first time in quite awhile.

What an unfortunate situation for all, including the Nolan Plastic people. I hope the situation is quickly resolved and the dealers get to make some sales with these cars before 12/25/12, and the consumer like me get to enjoy the car THIS Christmas, and Nolan Plastics manages to stay in business and keep their people employed.

And the first listing is a very large train dealer in NE Pennsy.  So both sellers are  making handsome profits on those auctions.  

Definitely "moment in time" collectibles at the very most.  

David

This reminds me of a couple of Lionel MPC freight cars. They start out at a normal price and then the dealers can ask whatever they want.

To name a few.

1. #5712 Lionel Lines Woodsided Reefer
2. #5717 Santa Fe Bunk Car

3. #5720 Great Northern Woodsided Reefer

Imagine, 2012 Christmas cars available sometime in 2013! When was the last time you ever heard of a toy manufacturer dropping the ball on a big ticket holiday item? Remember Furbies, Gameboys, Cabbage Patch Kids? They were expensive yes but they couldn't make them fast enough at the time. Here we have a manufacturer knowing that this particular item sells well at a particular time of the year to a loyal group of customers and they somehow botch it, it's not like the afore mentioned toys that no one knew would be that years big hit.

I also have been collecting them since they were offered and every year they and their MTH counterparts are run on the upper loop of my layout as a holiday tradition, now I know this isn't the end of the world but it is irritating.

Maybe if they had some of their own manufacturing capabilities instead of relying on jobbing it out they could keep a better handle on things.

Jerry

In some of the press material Lionel has posted...even in the LRRC Inside Track...Lionel clearly states that they have been looking for a supplier to handle larger production...maybe even a place to assemble after parts are shipped into from other US sources.  In other words Lionel did not put all their eggs in one basket.

On the other hand the digitally printed graphics on these new boxcars are amazing compared to decals.  I hope others have this tech. 

I think the best way for Lionel to handle this situation is to issue a e-mail to all of their dealers stating, though late, they will receive their complete orders of the Christmas cars. Any dealers wishing to cancel should contact their distributors or Lionel directly. This way, all of their pre-orders would be covered. Better late than never.

Oh how I remember those days all too well, Jim.  

I lived in Middletown, NJ for a couple years back in the mid-1980's, and there was a nearby dealer who was noted for "adjusting" his prices based on whether Lionel shorted his order quantities.  He'd honor his pre-order prices if you had actually pre-ordered an item.  But if you walked in off the street, you paid his going rate.    Needless to say, I never bought much from the place after I realized the games that were being played on unsuspecting train enthusiasts.

The 5712 reefer was a doozie for its day... often commanding above $150, which in those days was a LOT of money for a traditional sized reefer.  I made a trip into NYC and purchased one at Madison Hardware before the collector frenzie hit on that car.  So it was one of the few MPC-era cars I kept (mostly for sentimental reasons) when I decided to sell much of my MPC stuff earlier this year.

David

Plenty more suppliers will be found and go out of business after the first of the year.

Jon 

If you want to "buy to enjoy," suggest you look at the new Polar Railroad Round=Roof Boxcar. It is a beauty, believe me, and whether it sells like gangbusters or not will not change that fact!        

I thought that the world was ending before then.

They should have shipped product much sooner.  Too late, now that they filed for bankruptcy protection.  Any recent money/product transfers will now be reviewed for preferential payments by the court.

I agree that Nolan's problems probably existed for a while, unless one of their major customers also recently went under or that this bankruptcy filing is due to Nolan not meeting one (or more) of their lenders financial covenants which caused their line of credit to be demanded in full.

Due diligence isn't infallible and reinforces the need for "skilled" lawyers and accountants/auditors to review potential subcontractor's financial and inventory data.  A performance letter of credit would have helped Lionel.

IIRC, this is the second time Lionel has had trouble producing rolling stock in the USA. The original maker was somewhere in NJ and ended up producing nothing. This second try leaves much of the production and probably all of the tooling stuck in bankruptcy.

Perhaps the next try will see Lionel contracting with Weaver who is alrady the largest decorator of Lionel cars in the United States.

Tony

Up on "The D & H Bridge Line"

Perhaps the next try will see Lionel contracting with Weaver who is alrady the largest decorator of Lionel cars in the United States.

I don't think Weaver works directly with Lionel but through third parties such as LCCA.

That would be the smart move but Weaver probably would tell Lionel to take a long hike on a short dock during price negotiations.

There is also RGS, I wonder who does their assembly / painting and is it done in the USA. They have some terrific looking rolling stock.

The question is: Would Weaver want the job? 

Do they have the capacity to deal with Lionel production?  Lionel has mentioned (grain of salt time) building American Flyer starter sets and other things here.  How much would the added load disrupt Weaver operations?

Rusty

I am hoping to buy two of the Christmas boxcars. Was checking the Justrains site and they were showing them as out of stock but were apparently accepting orders. Checked again yesterday and now get a "No product" response so looks like they have given up on receiving any.

Can't see spending $300 for two cars.

Ned

RGS are Lionel repaints, and I would believe the entire operation (which is relatively small scale when compared to a full issue from a major brand) is local.

-Dave

I would think almost certainly Weaver, and without a doubt RGS, would be in no position to accept the huge production requirements Lionel would need, without in essence creating whole new companies.

What has to be made in the USA are the Thrall Car and Pullman-Standard 86' Auto Parts Box Cars with double doors and quad doors. Make them in large numbers and make them operate on an O54 minimum curve. Find one company that will build the Thrall Car 86' Auto parts box cars and another company to make the Pullman-Standard 86' Auto Parts Box Cars in order to fill the orders faster.

Andrew

Interesting to note the 29980 Elvis Anniversary boxcar is also made in the USA. No mention about being USA made in the 2012 Volume 2 catalog. Saw them yesterday and the are in the new style Made in USA box.

To give everyone an idea of what "local" means in the WorldWideWeb, RGS is based in Old Forge, PA, a couple miles south of Scranton.

Could someone please make a list of which cars are Made In The USA?

Jack

My LHS, M.B. Klein, finally got them in this week, 30 of them, one was set aside for me, the rest were preordered.

I picked mine up tonight for $48, and see them selling for $250 on Ebay. 

The power of having a relationship with an LHS was quite evident tonight.

Nice car, watching it right now circling my Christmas tree.

I mainly collect MPC stuff, not because of quality, but because it was made here in the good ol' USA and it was made when I was growing up, although I played only with HO as a kid. I have a few 0-27 items from Asia, and they are better quality, but it would be nice to get more production over here, mainly because we need it. It was nice to read that Apple is going to making their computers over here again, Not sure which ones but it's a start. I'm really surprised that so many people don't care where there trains are made, as I have a very hard time buying them. And that goes for everything I buy, I am well aware of where it's made. Avoiding things that are made in China is next to impossible. I hope that company can keep it's doors open. It's tough out there if you are manufacturing anything.

Elvis car was also.

I posted a few days ago about contacting Lionel about the LRRC Christmas car. I asked about the rumor of the company that was producing the cars declaring bankruptcy, and if the product was going to be delivered in time for Christmas. I received a reply today. They said that with the bankruptcy, shipping times have been pushed back into next year, but they are going to fill all the orders placed for the product.

Mine showed up at the LHS last week, (picked up yesterday) $54 after taxs, great looking car, think I'll hang on to it.

2012 car is now here in the UK. Nice looking car this year. Going to wrap it up for the youngest from Santa. That's if I can keep the better half from putting it on ebay.

Regards 

Nick

I got an unexpected reply from LRRC responding to my simple question about the shipping status of the LRRC Christmas Car.  I had no idea all of this was going on at the time I asked.  I mainly inquired to make sure the charge cleared on my card since I had a recent bank theft.  Lionel stated the supplier had gone under and production was moved to a new location.  Delivery expected by March.  Seems to be the same story for the cataloged Christmas Car.  Wouldn't it be cool if the second run has red trucks.  First run becomes even more a hot item.

It makes the hobby just a little more difficult, but rewarding when you find what you want.

Actually got a free gift today from LRRC due to the delay of the Christmas Car.  An enclosed letter said that no more Made in USA cars will ship this year.  The remaining runs are being sent immediately to China.  But Lionel will still pursue Made in USA product and will locate other vendors.  So the Ebay prices on the made in USA Christmas cars may hold up.  As they will be the only ones for this year.  Personally the Kinkade car is my favorite although I am usually not a fan of his style, artistically and personally.

If you don't mind my asking, what did you receive?

I guess all of us who ordered the car are also going to receive the gift, but I'm curious and it might take a while for it to make it out here.

Sorry I left that detail out.  Its an embroidered Lionel baseball cap.  The higher quality variety...not the mesh type with a patch fused on.  Yes, everyone should get one.  For once in my life I am getting LRRC items first since the warehouse is 2 hours away.

Guys and gals... Reality check time!!!

All we need to do is look at the complete lack of any premium prices whatsoever that folks are now willing to pay for the "last" Lionel locomotive made in the USA... or even ANY Lionel item simply because it's made in the USA.  Stuff that was considered very rare in their day (i.e., MPC passenger set add-on diners and vista domes, #5712 reefers, just to name a few) are all but yawners nowadays, and they command no premiums whatsoever.  This is all a ploy by sellers hoping toy train enthusiasts will think they're adding something extraordinarily rare and/or valuable to their "collection".  

$200+ for this year's Christmas box car?  Absolutely absurd, and I'm sure the sellers are laughing all the way to the bank.  That price will never hold up over time... and folks probably won't even give these cars a second look in a couple of years -- if not sooner.  Might as well just light a match to those C-notes... what a waste!

If you got the car at a regular price, then just be glad and enjoy it for the sake of enjoyment -- not because you think it's something rare or super valuable.  'Cause it's just another "moment-in-time collectible"... nothing more.

David

I am in full agreement!  Don't be suckered into paying a ridiculous premium for something that you'll be able to get by this time next year for possibly less than the original selling price.  "Made in the U.S." will NOT be enough to make these cars valued collectibles.  It's great that Lionel is trying to move some production back to the homeland, but please exercise some common sense in buying things like this.

Thank you for the info.

Sounds pretty nice. I wouldn't buy one, but I'll enjoy having one.

$200+ for this year's Christmas box car?  Absolutely absurd,

LOL, as ole Barnum use to say there is a sucker born every minute.

I paid $49. But hey I guess the question if people will pay more for "Made in the USA" has been answered.

Seriously though I hope we see more Lionel USA made items. Hornby has brought some of it's production of Humbrol model paints back to the UK so it looks like a trend may be developing.

Regards

Nick

>>>>All we need to do is look at the complete lack of any premium prices whatsoever that folks are now willing to pay for the "last" Lionel locomotive made in the USA... or even ANY Lionel item simply because it's made in the USA.<<<

I received my Lionel baseball cap from LRRC today. Nice hat and a nice gesture from Lionel.

They both have their appeal...the last of the made in USA items stemming from the General Mills era of comeback.  And the attempt to use vendors to create a made in USA product.  In my book both are equally desirable aspects to collect.  Now if the next Chinese run of Christmas boxcars show up with red trucks as pictured...we will have even more to talk about.

My hat came Monday. I thought it was a nice gesture too.

So does this mean that the cars that didn't get produced or shorted will be being produced in the next few months to fill backorders and those who weren't able to get one? Or are those of us who didn't preorder basically going to get the shaft?

Jerry

Just catching up on this thread. Folks are really paying $200 for that Christmas boxcar?!  Why?

Incredible !

Because unsuspecting toy train enthusiasts are getting caught up in all the hype.  The sad reality is the sheer number that are now listed on eBay should show ANYONE how rare these cars are NOT!    I really don't understand people's gullibility sometimes.

David

The cars that come from China will essentially be a different product.

Maybe the Chinese version will be more rare than the USA version.

Gentlemen,

   I do not believe Weaver would want the job, unless on a very specialized limited basis.  Say one Christmas car a year and even then it might over whelm them.  Although I might start collecting Christmas cars again, if it were to happen.

PCRR/Dave

Does this (made in the USA) include the Angela Trotta Thomas cars?

I found one car that I really liked that being the Santa Claus and Coke Christmas car. Very nice and while I paid retail it supported my local hardware store that carries Lionel and I was happy to get one. While it is a shame that the company folded things do happen and I would suggest just waiting a while and those that missed out will likely find one in the future. Not fun right now but things happen.

Its my understanding that all orders will be filled. However, we may not see the remaing cars until March. March is better than never. 

Interesting that this years Lionel employee Christmas cars (6-29972) were also made in the USA.

From the different post that I have read on this forum pertaining to e-mails received from Lionel, I don't put to much faith in their e-mails. I'm not sure the employees at Lionel know exactly whats going on.

For what it's worth, the Lionel Angela Trotta Thomas Christmas boxcars are at dealers. 

No, these are not the elusive "Christmas 2012" cars but they are very attractive and might make a nice alternative for some. They say "Christmas Morning" and feature the same illustration that appears on the 2012 Christmas catalog. 

True, remember when Talk To Us was telling folks that tubular track had been discontinued? I have seen on a few hobby shop websites that the Christmas cars will be available in March 2013 but I don't think there will be enough of a market then for Lionel to come thru. 

Jerry

That's been my feeling as well.  It seems like TTU's locked in a chamber in the basement, surrounded by a moat, guarded by a dragon, and communicates with Corporate by banging on the water pipes.

Rusty

Unless someone who has received theirs indicates it came in a Made in USA style box, the answer is no. 

This car did not indicate Made in USA in the catalog (but then, I don't think the Elvis car did either, and it apparently ended up being made in USA).

-Dave

Ah, yes! Thanks Trestrainfan for reminding me and the link. I had forgotten about that one. That's the Lionel car with theAmerican Flyer box art! I knew there was some reason why I had ordered one.

Glad to help.

I got a day after Christmas surprise from Charles Ro.  Before Christmas, a few boxcars arrived from Ro and the infamous Christmas boxcar had been marked out as shorted.  Well I bought one on Ebay for more $$..no regrets...a great dealer on there.  Well yesterday came a box from RO with the Christmas car in it for the $46 price.  It is quite stunning.  The silvery paint with the faint outlines appeals to me.  Its all painted...no decals...something Nolan did that was special.  So I ended up with two perfect Made in USA cars...put one back on Ebay.

Has anyone actually verified that Nolan Plastics & Manufacturing has declared bankruptcy? According to their website they appear to be alive and well.

http://www.nolanenterprise.com/contact.php

The only information that I was able to find was a comment from Bryler Junction's Facebook page. He posted the same comment from Dave Glatte from Heartland Hobby Wholesale.

I would be more convinced if I see something officially from Lionel or from Nolan.

Here is the only reference that I have seen where Lionel acknowledges that there may be an issue with their supplier. This came from the Lionel Facebook page.

posted toLionel Trains

I actually received official word from Lionel about their supplier and the future of Made in the USA. Here is their response on their Facebook page.

Can you actually confirm the status of Nolan Enterprises? Are they still in business and are they still your supplier for your Made in USA car series?

The LRRC letter mailed to those who ordered the LRRC Christmas car clearly stated that production was being moved to China ASAP.  It was a very candid and honest letter.  Possibly one of the most informative communications I have ever received from LRRC.

it really is the business of the company, the creditors and the stockholders.

Lionel has no stockholders. They are a portfolio for Guggenheim Capitol Management, a private entity.

Well, I can add this to the fire:

I picked up a Lionel Thomas Kincaid Boxcar this past weekend that has a Made in the USA sticker on the Box. It was in the display case at the LHS for the normal (Below MSRP) price.

I also picked up a full set of the Presidents cars at that time. (Also Made in the USA)

My dealer was kind enough to hold 2 sets of them for me when I couldn't afford them.

So look around folks, the Made in the USA  cars are out there if you want to send Lionel the message.

I Sent my message with my wallet. That's the Message they really see.

And If I find more Made in the USA cars, I will buy them as well.

If those cars do not fit my All Steam RR, then I have siblings I can Gift them to.

Support your LHS and Made in the USA products by buying those products in your LHS (assuming he can get them).

This will lead All the manufacturers to do more in the USA.

Money Talks Louder than all else in the Business world.

I Sent my message with my wallet. That's the Message they really see.

Well that is fine if you want one of those cars but that logic doesn't work for me. If my choise is a Kincaide boxcar made in the USA and there is a Northern Pacific boxcar made in China sitting next to it, the Northern Pacific boxcar is going out the door with me.

Mine took a little bit longer to come Charles Ro I just got mine yesterday with some other Christmas catalog items. And originally mine was marked as B/O on some stuff that came before Christmas. 

Interesting in that the China made 2012 Holiday boxcars will use 7-29976 as a PN

rather than 6-29976.

As the saying goes: "Holy thread revival Batman!"

Like many of you I've been trying to locate one of the '12 Christmas cars (I was able to obtain one but would very much like another).

The post above by ed h suggests we may have not seen the end of these cars; is that correct? Has there been any news about renewed production?

Thank you.

Ned

Thank you.

Ned

To Bill and anyone else that mistook my post;

I fully understand if you have no desire for a particular car, no need to buy simply because it is Made in the USA. For me, I run a Christmas train during the season, it is getting pretty large. If I have the choice of a Made in the US or China car, I will buy the USA car. If there is no USA made car, then I'll buy what I like.

But I prefer a Made in the USA product if it is even close to what I was looking for.

I do the same thing buying light bulbs. Sylvania now has a line of Made in USA bulbs. I buy them even tho they are a bit more money.

If we don't buy stuff made here, who is going to be working in another 30 years?

We can't all be in service industries.

Is RGS STILL in business?

Yep, booth in same location at York, some neat new stuff added to the inventory plus reconditioned madison passenger cars in the future.

Received a message from Trainworld on Saturday advising the car was now available and asking if I still wanted one.

Called them yesterday to say I did want it and received it today. 

It is, of course, one of the Made in China versions but at least my collection is up to date

Ned