New released MTH Southern PS4

Did you watch the video that MTH currently has, showing the Southern PS-4 in action? That MTH video was posted here yesterday, too.

The whistle in the video sounds exactly like my Southern Kanawha Steam Engine w/Proto-Sound 2.  I don't think they blew quillable whistle in the video.  The quillable whistle on my Southern Kanawha engine has totally different sound to it.  It sounds like a traditional sounding whistle...like you would hear on some of the RailKing steam engines.  I would guess that the new engine does have a quillable whistle.  I  also have the MTH premier 2003 Crescent Limited steam engine with Proto-Sounds 2.  The whistle on that engine sounds totally different than the new version...more of a traditional sounding whistle.  However, the new version is exactly painted the same as my 2003 Crescent Limited with minior differences.    

I was looking at MTH's Southern and Blue Comet sets too. Just curious - if you are looking for a quillable whistle and if smoking whistle appeals to you, are you considering options from Lionel, given thry come with these features?

I am not so fussy about whether engines have quillable whistles.  That is a beautiful engine and it seems prudent to go ahead and buy the whole set.  Oh, if I had the money.

.....

Dennis

I'd love to get this set in Black. But after going back and checking the catalog I can't figure out if the passenger cars are available in black.

WHAT?????

 

You seriously want BLACK passenger cars????   For the SOUTHERN RAILWAY?????

Not to start any bashing, but are these locomotives correct? They sure look great except the cool white LED head lamp.

 

...keep the rails polished...

Unfortunately, MTH did not make any new separate passenger car sets for these PS4 engines except for the cars that come along with the Crescent Limited engine.  I was disappointed that they did not.  However, they did make a set of black Southern Heavyweight Passenger cars back in 2000 and 2009.  There is 5 car set and an additional 2 car set from 2000 which you sometimes can find on ebay.  I have not seen the set from 2009 up for sale anywhere except for a few add on cars that MTH offered with the passenger set. 

Absolutely, My preference is for trains that have a connection to family history. Dad's family is from Southeastern Georgia. He use to tell stories of hopping on a train in Macon that they nick named the "Joe Brown" and riding it to Lumber City to visit family. This would have been in the 1930's on the Southern's Macon / Brunswick line. I don't know that they ever ran green trains on those rails.

OK, maybe Pullman Green, which may LOOK black in many old photos, but BLACK passenger cars in the southern part of the U.S.?? Hard to believe.

Even though grandpa was Passenger Agent in Macon, I'm no expert on the Southern Railway. Maybe one of our Southern Historians could chime in on the topic.

I would suspect with all the minor branch lines the Southern controled, Black was more the rule than the exception.

Over the years more than half of the Southern's passenger cars were supplied by Pullman-Standard. The Heavyweight Cars were Pullman Green and as the poster above said they appeared almost black[kind of a faded black in my memory] and had yellow gold lettering. You can verify this in the book "Southern Railway Color Guide to Freight and Passenger Equipment" by James Kincaid, it has numerous examples in color.

 

Heavyweight Cars were also built by St.. Louis Car Company, Bethlehem Steel and others such as American Car and Foundry who built Lightweights postwar also.

 

The only Southern Railway model passenger cars that I have found over the years in a Pullman "Green'' is a 5 car set by MTH. Of course, there are many sets in the Lionel, MTH, K-Line, etc, versions of the green Crescent Limited as well as the stainless Lightweights in natural, some with black painted roofs. 

 

The first Southern stainlless Lightweights were delivered along with the E6s for The Southerner[Mar '41], The Tennessean[May '41] and the Crescent, no longer called the Limited[Dec '41]. Pearl Harbor and WWII put a stop to all car deliveries[and most engines] which actually did not resume on cars for the Southern until 1948--postwar there was a real car shortage.

 

In a few cases such as on The Tennessean, Heavyweight Sleepers were painted in silver to run in the Lightweight consist of the name trains---the "Silver Trains". Heavyweights ran mixed in stainless consists well into the 1960s and beyond. SRR President Brosnan even had container car freight in tow behind passenger consists. The profitable revenue was in the headend cars [mail and express] not back in the coaches. As result photos show 4-6 Heavy weight RPOs, REAs, Combines and Crew Cars in Lightweight passenger consists. Airmail and trucks gradually ended that scene.

 

Keep in mind that the Crescent Limited adorment on the Ps-4s and Cars we model was to mostly disappear by 1934 as the Great Depression really cranked up. Anyway there were only four "Harrison" Crescent Limited Engines decorated, two out of Pegram Shops Atlanta and two out of Spencer Shops in N.C.  Three "Harrison" Southern Ps-4s carried the "Queen and Crescent Limited" decoration over on the CNO&TP and the AGS, rostered in the Ferguson and Finley Shops.

In my personal opinion, MTH's Ps-4 doesn't hold a candle to Lionel's. It really bothers me that the can interior is painted green. That just shows MTH is being cheap! I think the black Ps-4 looks nice, but it's horribly inaccurate. But I get what they are going for. And if you want the most accurate heavyweight passenger cars, look for the custom run GGD put out a few years back. But seeing as how there were only 20 sets made, that might be kinda impossible.

A poor scan of one page showing the grayish-black look of some Southern Ry "Pullman Green" Heavyweights all made by Pullman-Standard.

For comparison of color shade,the MTH model of the Southern Pullman look. Needs a little dull coat maybe.

 

Dewey, 

I have a set of Lionel Southern Heavyweight cars for the Lionel Southern Ps-4 from 2007. Those cars where a lighter shade of Pullman green. Lighter than I thought they should be. I also have a set of Limited Edition Southern Heavyweight Golden Gate Depot Car. These car are full scale at 20" in length and are some of the nicest cars I have in my collection. The MTH are pretty close to prototypical but not 100% but I like them behind my Lionel Southern Ts-1. As for the silver trains. I have a set of MTH cars in plastic and aluminum. The cars I most like to have would be the lightweight cars with painted black roof which were used to the end of passenger service on the Southern.

 

As for the paint scheme on the locomotive MTH has always painted the Roof on the Cab oxide Red. Which Dewey and Myself will tell you is incorrect. It's been a long debate about the red roofs but I've learned that Green or Black roofs are prototypical and where based on what shop the locomotive where based out of. Ps-4 1366 – 1392 were all delivered black with gold lettering. 1372 – 1373 where lettered for the Crescent Limited in gold leaf but still remained in painted in black.

It wasn’t until  1393 – 1396  were delivered in Green and lettered for the Crescent Limited in 1926.

They would also be the best looking Ps-4 in the batch since they carried the Elesco feedwater heaters on top of the smokebox.

What an interesting thread - (always good to hear Dewey's and Sean's comments especially) but why no photos of these fine locomotives you're taking about?????

 

It's also good to see a 'younger fella' like Matthew interested in the history of Southern RR

 

 

But speaking of Black SR cars,  didn't MTH produce some black or dark green 72' lightweights a few years ago? Seems I saw them in a catalog with the usual tiny illustrations and have never seen them in 'real life'!

Those " BLACK" Car your talking about are really dark pullman green cars and where former cars used on the Central of Georgia. The Dome car was a former Wabash parlor dome and was used on the rear of the Southern Crescent from Atlanta to New Orleans. The MTH cars were also trying to simulate some of the Southern Heavyweight rebuild coaches that where modernized with rounded roofs but I'm pretty sure Dewey will correct and back me up on the facts.

Go to the MTH website and watch the new video of the green & gold PS-4.

Not to get all involved, but here is the way it was, in fact:

 

Black passenger cars in the "modern" US were never common, anywhere. Rare, actually.

Dark "Pullman" green was the rule throughout the heavyweight era, regardless of

road. Were there ever black cars? I guess, but not many. Can't name any, personally.

 

However, the roofs of heavyweight cars were often as not - even typically - black. The

waterproofing (tar?) had something to do with it, one would think.

 

I understand that the Southern Railway Ps-4's (early order) were indeed black for some years, but, as is probably mentioned above, they never had any kind of gold striping when black. All that stuff came with the green; they were just nice, big, black USRA Heavy-derived steamers, so far as I know.   

 

If I get one of the Lionels (shouldn't...), I may repaint my MTH Proto-1 Southern

green Pacific in black.

Here you go...

One nice feature of the Mth version over the Lionel crescent is there is a backup light and marker lights on the tender.  Also the cars don't have green tinted windows.  Neither is a show stopper to me, but I want to point this out.  I also the think the lionel cars need a minimum of O54 while the mth cars need O42.  That could also make a difference to someone trying to decide...

As Sean said, many of the Pullman cars appeared black especially in photos. Note the former Wabash Dome Car [#1602] in the top photo that ended up on Southern via a sale to Central of Georgia when Wabash was merged into N&W, and COG eventually was acquired by Southern[whew]. It has just been painted and appears really black whereas the Dome Car[#1613] in the center photo on the rear of the Southern Crescent has been out shopped quite awhile and is faded to a lighter shade[don't bet any $ on my printer's shading]. These Dome Cars cars eventually went to Quebec.

 

Also note the stainless lightweight car just in front of it on the Southern Crescent with the painted black roof Sean mentioned earlier.

 

The "Boattail" Tavern-Observation stainless car in the bottom photo is the "Lousiana" one of three[#1101,1102,1103] with that name.

C. Sam

My six Ps-4s are elderly and and resting on the aluminum shelves while the layout is temporarily down for work[I hope temporarily]. One Williams Brass from 1990 under the bed in a box, one Weaver, two MTH and two Lionel. The four of the five out on the shelves are TMCC/RS 4.0.  MTH #1401 is still Conventional.

These wouldn't load previously--trying again. Last photo is of Aristocraft large scale Ps-4 and Franklin Mint Ho scale.

Painted pretty sitting at the Salisbury, N.C. Depot:  Ts-1 Southern Mountain type on the westbound Carolina Special alongside the southbound Crescent Limited.

I'm certainly enjoying this thread. While all the knowledgable folks on the Southern are paying attention I'd like to ask what opinions there are on using theBlack PS4 followed by Pullmans to represent the Macon/Brunswick line during the mid to late 1930's?

Matthew,

 

The black Southern PS-4 Pacific is actually much more prototypical, since the Southern stopped painting/maintaining the green & gold, about 1934, as a result of the the Great Depression.

Matthew

Rank & Lowe in their book "Southern Steam Power", claim the Class C  4-4-2 Atlantics ran as power on the Southern's Atlanta-Macon-Brunswick line during the early 1900s and on into the 1930s. At the same time we read of Ps-2s and early Ps-4s on the Atlanta, Macon and Atlanta Birmingham runs. The Atlantics were fast but would not handle many heavyweights so I expect the stronger Pacifics were used to Brunswick, in particular during WWII,as greater loads of Defense personnel Atlanta to the coast demanded.

 

Keep in mind, Southern Ry had Ps, P1s, Ps-2s, Ps-3s, Ps-4s and P5s[Ps denoting superheated steam] which reflects the equipment accummulated from all the acquisitions they made in the early days of the 20th Century. The P1s with their 63" drivers were known as "short-legged mountain climbers" and were assigned to the Asheville/Knoxville Divisions.  The P1s that received a 67" drriver replacement for their 63" for more speed were labeled P5s and worked flatter territory, including out of Atlanta.

 

The lightweight Ps-3s, for example, were all used on the rickity trestle approaches over Lake Ponchartrain to New Orleans on the New Orleans & Northeastern, a Southern subsidiary. Of course, many P Series were up graded to Ps-2 over time. There existed many green and gold Ps-2s but I think a great majority were in black livery.Southern Master Mechanics and Engineers were both given great lattitude in how their engines were decorated.

 

Sean is best to comment on the Green vs. Black. He has done research on the early Ps-4s for the Crescent program and he has talked of modeling the one that was Black, Gold and Silver in 1925-26 prior to the Green 'n Gold Ps-4s, all leading eventually to the "Harrison Group" decoration. I know that the info is in the five part Ties Magazine series on the P Class of Southern 4-6-2s but I don't have time to find it right now.

C. Sam

Lost the photo on first try.

 

Old photo of my Southern 250 Ton D-5 Wreck Derrick with Idler Car. Do you think it would look good in Green 'n Gold?

Not a TMCC model, plain former Great Northen unit redecorated[and rethreaded] by Jeff Sohn back in the day.

 

The Derricck was normally coupled in a wreck train that in addition to the Idler Car, had a water tender, fuel oil tender, crew car and flat car or gondolas with wheels, turnouts, ties, rails, tie plates, spikes, etc. Many of them continued operating on steam with boilers fueled by oil well into our modern era.

Dewey,

Don't you dare paint that Derrick and Idler car green!!

I would almost say that it would look nice behind that Black MTH Ps-4!!

As for the Ps-4 I'm modeling I'm using an unpainted K-line USRA Heavy Pacific and road number 1372 which had the Worthington feed water heater and was lettered for the Southern Crescent Limited. The K-Line Pacific is a close match for the Ps-4 and Ive been thinking and working on doing this project way before MTH decided to do the NEW Ps-4 in the catalog. I'm still curious to see how well the MTH  black Ps-4 looks in person.

Dewey I got this image online from the MTH Catalog and as you can see it's incorrect since it sporting the Elesco FWH and not the Worthington FWH.

As noted earlier in the thread all the as delivered  black Ps-4 lacked the Elecso FW

As for the Queen and Crescent Limited the catalog image is the correct Ps-4 with the Elesco FWH and road number #6688 but it has the Red Oxide roof.

Also let me know how that Weaver E8 upgrade goes. I have 4 E8 that I'm thinking about adding RS 4.0 and TMCC. Just need to get the air tanks and pipping to add to the roofs.

 

Perhaps Dewey or Sean can chime in here, but I don't believe prototypically the Southern had marker lights on these engines, in which case the Lionel version would be correct. At least none of the pictures I've ever seen had marker lights. Not positive about backup lights, but I don't think they had those either.

http://southernmodeler.info/Hu...Rear_MM_Dec_2004.pdf

This PDF link shows a back up light but no marker light on the tender.

It might be possible that they where added later but I have to do some more checking to see.

The extensive and detailed "Spoting Features" listed for the 23 Harrison Ps-4s rostered at the four Shops, include the details on characteistics of the Headlamp and Class Lights but there is no listing of any lights in the description of the special 14,000 gallon six axle tenders. I have never seen a tender backup light or rear class lights/markers in any of the Ps-4 photos nor on the official schematics. Finding a rear photo in a Yard is the most likely source of photo verification.

 

I simply don't know!

 

Ed King, TIES Steam Editor who along with Ps-4 historian Dale Roberts wrote the articles for 6 issues of TIES Magazine covering the 192 Light Pacifics, [excluding the New Orleans Northeastern engines], which was followed by detail coverage of the 23 heavy Ps-4 Harrisons. Ed is an OGR Forum member. He would know regarding a tender backup light if, for example, it is recessed in the rear of the body and unseen in photos or on a schematic. Dale Roberts is deceased.

 

On the Ms-4 Mikados, photos show that the tender backup light is placed about where Sean shows it in the drawing on a tender. 

C. Sam

A Southern Ry 100 Ton Wreck Derrick[rear] and 40 Ton Locomotive Crane, working nose-to-nose to install pilings, concrete bents and supports on the Lake Ponchartrain Trestle over to your hometown of New orleans. Replacing the wooden facility which had severe weight restrictions. The Southern Ry subsidiary, New Orleans & Northeastern, could now use heavier Engines to enable a more direct route for the Crescent, etc, on Southern rails to New Orleans.  ......from Southern RY Panorama.

I just watched the MTH video and I noticed the headlight along with the marker and number-board lights flickering/oscillating. Is this supposed to be prototypical, or is something wrong? To me it looks like a TMCC engine with a case of bad ground.

 Scott

I'll have to find my book Southern Ps-4 Class Pacific Locomotive Drawings" by William C. Fitt. Published by Wildwood Publications to see if any information about the maker lights are published on the plans. I'm trying to remember if any of my Lionel Ps-4 even have a marker light on the rear of the tender. I know that the rear backup tender light is there.