PRR T1 Steam Locomotive Trust

I recall reading an article in either OGR or CTT  a long time ago about that particular individual who told the committee that the T1 would be a better one because of the clearance issues of the 4449 and he was somehow connected with the T1, he either owned it , was part owner or knew the folks who owned it. I wish I could find the article , I certainly don't want to start a ROW over it.

 

Jerry

Not to take away anything from the PDX 4449 crew, but did the AFT team ask the UP if they could use 844, then numbered 8444, for the train.  They already leased UP 951 for the Preamble Express.

I got an email back from them after asking if there is any news on the project:

 

Hello,

No they did not. Especially after the UP Management would NOT allow Ross Rowland's NKP 759 on the UP property with the Gold Spike Special, back in 1969!

AFAIK, coal was the issue with UP/ NKP 759.   As for the lack of info on the T1 trust...considering the time, or lack thereof, that this has been up and running...I'd say quite a lot has been accomplished thus far.  On the bottom of the ladder, we're still dealing with...the sons and grandsons of the folks who couldn't/  wouldn't save us a NYCS Hudson!   A huge part of getting a T1 built or anything of this nature, will be realizing the mistakes of the past, and get to thinking (and acting) in a much more positive, mature mind set.  How much have "we" evolved in the last fifty years?  I mean back in the day, it was all you could do to get 98% of the popular fan base to buy a roll of K25 or spend .50 cents for a TRAINS mag !   IF you really want such a project as PRR 5550 to succeed...or anything like it...people will have to wake and get off their collective rosy red bohunkus !

It's time to stop blaming the people in the past.  Nothing is going to change back there.

 

The success or failure of the T1 project will depend on the project managers and their ability to raise funds, arrange for manufaturing and finding a railroad to run the thing on.

 

Rusty

Not true! It was strictly a personal confrontation between Ross Rowland and John Kenefick,  back when Kenefick was VP of Operations on NYC, in 1967/1968. Mr. Rowland wanted to operate excursions on Mr. Kenefick's railroad. The "confrontation" came when Mr. Rowland had his VERY powerful Wall Street investors "put the pressure" on Mr. Kenefick to "let his NKP 759 run on the NYC". Naturally, Ross Rowland's NKP 759 made MANY trips throughout the eastern states.

 

But,,,,,,when John Kenefick returned to the UP, where he had started as a Draftsman, as Vice President of Operations in late 1968, it was "Pay back time" when Ross Rowland came calling in Omaha, in order to operate "his" Gold Spike Centennial Special. Mr Kenefick told Mr. Rowland that He would cutup #8444, and have ashtrays made for airplanes, before he would allow Rowland's 759 onto the Union Pacific Railroad!

 

The NKP 759 was removed from the train in Kansas City, and the UP handled the Special with diesels all the way west to Ogden/Salt Lake City area. The UP's own FEF-3 #8444 powered the special train operations between Salt Lake City and Ogden for the big Gold Spike event.

Hey

We're just backup.

Sorry, I don't get it.

The article I posted elaborated on how the T1 was rushed into service, sort of "backs  up" what you wrote.

On the other hand hope it is O.K. to post what I heard without your permission.

You are more than welcome to post whatever you desire, no mater factual or not.

Nope..The S1 Duplex was the biggest ..rather see a New S1 Duplex built..was the biggest steam loco built at 140'+

There isn't one railroad today that would let the S1 on its rails...

Exactly!  Why would you want a shelf piece S1   when you can have a TEE that would most likely leave the bigger Duplex in the dust!   OTOH, a full scale S1, such as the partial K4s at ARRM would be most kool, if anyone would dedicate the room to display such a beastie!   If the size of the T1 frame is a major issue...then either weld it up and stress relieve it on completion, cast the front and rear segments separately, and permanently join them when U R ready !  In any event, when 5550 is out of the oven, a lot of myths are going to be shattered, and histories rewritten.  Especially if we can duplicate 5500 as she finished her life with FRS Poppet Rotary "B" gear, and the other little tweaks she had.   

My, my. You must really have a nice supply of "the good stuff", that you smoke, or drink!

Don't get me wrong... I'm a P-Company fan and a T-1 enthusiast.  But what good is speed without TE?

 

Jon

you can moditfied it,articulate it..like something like bowser did with there HO version of there T1..have the drivers its self pivit ...fit all the flaws it was plague with..same with the T1..make a re vamp version of the S1 or the T1,,with todays technology anything is possible..

 

Oh, please... 

 

Just because something can be done in the model world doesn't mean it'll work on the prototype.  There's minor things like balance, suspension, and all the extra plumbing to follow the front cylinders around.

 

Rusty

First...thanks for posting. The T1 is my number one fav loco.

Will it get done? I don't know...but a COOL idea!!!!

AFT GS-4 came to Charlotte NC so it made it east anyway.

From a Technology Lost article I read no one stateside can cast a one piece frame of the T1 size any longer.

It CAN be done.....but more work than almost anyone can imagine.

Hope it happens.

Hey good thought!  If we can't afford a real chooch..we'll just make a gigantic Bowser T1, and an S1 too, while we're at it!   Two huge Pittmans in either end and a diesel engine in the tender to power the whole thing.  In the off season, we'll install rubber tires on it and run 'er on the PA. Turnpike !  

If the funds could be raised what would PRR fans rather have?

 

A.  A replica T-1.

 

or

 

B.  Genuine PRR locomotives restored to operating condition from classes K4s, M1b and GG1.

I was always told you can't scale physics.

 

Jerry

If the funds could be raised what would PRR fans rather have?

 

B.

Too bad you can't have ANY of those other engines!  The K4s, M1b, G5s and whatever else you like won't pass FRA regs.  They are SHOT !  PRR took too many shortcuts in their original design and construction...and why not?  They were Never expected to run for sixty to eighty years!  Only way you can do 'em today is with a completely redesigned and rebuilt firebox area or run at a reduced level of steam pressure. As for the GG1, as much as I'd LOVE to see that happen...it can't  without all new motors and wiring throughout.  The Penn is over folks...hoist those crying towels!  Only way out is an all new chooch, if we're gonna be realistic. And that means a brand new T1 or J1, as these guys were up to snuff when built.  Not all that bad either...as these two were the Penn's two best steamers anyway!   Flame suit on !

What is that old saying? "Better to remain quiet, then open your mouth and remove all doubt."  Well, you have just "removed all doubt."!!!!

Well, where are they??? No interest???   It would appear that the available nickels  and dimes are headed down N&W way!   Wonder why that is ?   Hummmmm.

1) Nobody really gives a crap about the PRR K4s #1361, since WAY TOO MUCH money has been wasted on THAT project. Thus anyone with ANY common sense isn't going to "donate" to THAT sinkhole.

 

2) Donating to the N&W 611 project is VERY LOGICAL, since it obviously has a potential railroad to operate on!

 

3) Trying to fund ANY PRR steam locomotive, whether one that exists today, or some half ***ed project to manufacture a new one, is ridiculous, since neither CSX nor NS would even consider operating any of them, for so many reasons that you can not comprehend.

 

4) The N&W J Class was, has been, and is STILL a PROVEN and reliable performer!

PRR did test J #610.  They could have a very good engine, off the self, instead of an untested engine in terms of on the road performance.

Hot Water,

 

I recall reading that you knew the late Vernon Smith.  Did Mr. Smith ever discuss his time with Franklin Supply and the T1?  I haven't been able to find a copy of "One Man's Locomotive" yet to read his thoughts.

 

--Reed 

1) Not true, there are a lot of PRR fans out there that would like to see this engine ride the rails again. I would politically call this engine on a holding track...

2) Yes this is money well spent, no argument, Having the NS as a backer helps.

3) Not all restored engines will run on a class 1 railroad. there are plenty of smaller railroads that run fan restored engines... the 1225 is a good example.

4) Many said the 4014 was a hopeless thought and would NEVER happen...

 

My point take the blinders off... anything can and will happen.

 

BTW I think I saw a stranded 2-10-2 in Pittsburgh the other day...would take a miracle, but they do happen.

J Daddy-

What you saw was Bessemer & Lake Erie 2-10-4 #643. And yes, it would take a miracle just to preserve it. The owner refuses to sell it or entertain any offer to move and display it.

Anyplace that could accommodate Bessemer #643 could easily handle a PRR T1.  I wasn't kidding about PRR steam designs and modern FRA regs.  1361 could operate again, under steam, but at a reduced pressure.  Wanting to run the factory 205 PSI would require extensive rework of the firebox/boiler area.   Can it be done?  Sure, but at what cost?   One thing I'll certainly admit about the K4s...it will fit just about anywhere, and run cheaply too...and it's so simple, a monkey could run it, or fix it.

Just perfect for the NY&LB...and so it was!  So why didn't it happen?   Take a close look at the Affordable Health Care Act...and you'll have about 95% of your answer!

Actually that is funny... like the government is going to restore a steam engine,

and what kind of monkeys are we talking about?

not aways true..alot of our trains,boat,planes,trucks

and cars start as models before the real prototype is built....with todays techknowledgey anything is possible...and it can burn coal clean too,just incase the EPA would say anything..I was looking at videos of china steam locos and man they burn clean,,no black smoke out of there stacks..but it does blow out alot of steam too..

That video you posted did NOT show a single Chinese steam locomotive actually working hard pulling a train! Believe me, they smoke like crazy, even if it doesn't look like it in that bitter cold temperature. Besides, the Chinese don't use steam locomotives any longer on the main lines.

i know they smoke like crazy but not alot of black smoke compaired to our US steam loco..but liked the steam blow off on the front sides..thats alot more then the US train does,,but there are more modern built then Ours...Oh RJ corman RR has one of those steamers..saw it in the webpages..there also have a base here in celina OH..But anything is possible in building a new version of the T1..

Smoke (or lack of) is totally dependent on the skill of the fireman in tending his fire and working with his engineer.

 

Take a look at the NYC Hudson video posted by PennsyK4 here.  Not a dirty stack in the lot.

 

And steam being "blown out" is steam wasted.

 

Rusty

You really have no idea of the differences in physics between a steam locomotive and a modern, computer controlled, diesel electric locomotive, and trying to use videos taken in sub-zero temperatures in china some 10 years ago, is like trying to compare cucumbers and water mellons! 

1.  The money spent on a T1 would be better spent getting the PRR collection at the Commonwealth of PA RR Museum up to snuff!

 

2.  There are other steamers rusting away that could use some love.

 

3.  I'd bet UP 3985 would really love to run every so often.

 

4.  Translation:  We don't keep what we already have.  Why build something new?