3rd Rail--Can We Expect Any New Items?

@MELGAR posted:

The obvious solution would be to pick one locomotive, perhaps the first one, the last one to be retired, or one that was the most photographed around a large city, and build a model of just that one locomotive. If that isn't good enough for too-picky fans, they don't have to buy it and probably don't deserve to have anything. I doubt that any of my O gauge locomotive models from Sunset, MTH Premier, Lionel, Atlas O or Weaver is precisely accurate - but some are quite close and that's good enough for me. Remember, in building any locomotive model, deviations from prototype always must be made to engineer the model for operation. They never are perfectly accurate - just close enough for most people.

MELGAR

I disagree. What if a customer wants to purchase 2 or more models, with different road numbers, for "his/her railroad" being modeled? Then, what if a customer wants correct models of units used in freight service, plus additional correct models of units used in passenger service? Also wanting to purchase multiple models? Sure, it would be expensive but, what in model railroading isn't expensive any more?

Seems most logical to do the most common rs3 one common to most railroads— I have no doubt it would sell very well — I’d order at least two — LIRR from the 60’s would be a real good one

@GG1 4877 posted:

The RS3 while high on my list of locomotives I am interested in is not as easy as it looks on paper.  As with all locomotives there were periodic specification changes throughout the years of production in addition to road specific details and several variants.

As I recall there were three major specification changes that affect the outward appearance of the RS3, not including the several variants.  Not that they couldn't be done with modern tooling, just makes it a more interesting project to research, design, and execute.

@Bob posted:

Building correct RS-3's could be a nightmare for 3rd Rail.  For example, PRR had 127 of them on their roster, with no less than 20 variations.  Trainphone, cab signals, dynamic brakes, headlight type, number board placement and steam heat boiler are some of the features that were mixed and matched on these units, and all led to visible exterior detail differences.

Man, I really love prototypical scale model accuracy. That’s something that gives me a lot of enjoyment. Then I go and set the scale model down on my track where the number of rails is incorrect by 50%.  When I try to think about why what I’m doing makes any sense I get a headache.

@GG1 4877 posted:

Another one that I would like to personally see is a H24-66 Train Master.  I would go for several CNJ ones and a PRR one in 2 rail.  The brass ones Sunset did a number of years ago are next to impossible to find and any newly tooled one would be far superior.

It would be great to see these done by 3rd Rail !!!!! 😜👍😜👍😉😉😉

I'd like to see GP-35's or GP-38/GP38-2's. There are lots of great roads that could be produced, and almost every major road owned some.

Not specific to 3rd Rail.  EMC FT diesels.

I'd really like a GE BQ23-7 in O scale. I don't know if there is a manufacturer other than 3rd Rail that would consider making one of those.

I might have odd preferences but I'm a big fan of commuter rail and bi-level/double decker cars.

It's great 3rd rail is doing the superliners (and I have my reservation in), lionel lost their superliner, according to a recent podcast they were on, Legend has it K-line's tooling was melted down when they went bankrupt, MTH still has their superliner tooling but isn't planning on doing anything with it as far as I know.

I would love to see some commuter F40PHs and Bi-levels, although atlas bought the F40PH tooling it looks like they're only using it to work with their existing horizon/comet tooling, and the MTH bi-level tooling wasn't too detailed to begin with.

There are a large number of different commuter roads using similar cars:

NJ transit, MARC, LIRR all use the roughly the same type of bi-level car

Sounder, New Mexico Rail Runner, GO Transit, Metrolink, Florida Tri-Rail, Trinity use roughly the same type of bilevel car

Metra, VRE, Music city star, Caltrain, roughly use the same type of bi-level with a number of possible variations for Metra

As for the F40PHs most of the above use/used them as well as VIA rail and MBTA

To me there seems to be a ton of options with little body changes which seem to be in-line with what 3rd rail offers in diesels.

It's a pipe dream though, the MTH F40PHs (except for amtrak) are near impossible to find, and the bi-levels are a bit easier to find but very high on the secondary market. With atlas having the F40PH tooling I doubt we'll see any of the lesser-known commuter roads from either MTH or Atlas again.

@DashingDanLIRR posted:

NJ transit, MARC, LIRR all use the roughly the same type of bi-level car

Septa bought similar ones too.

I say this same thing anytime a similar topic comes up...I'm not picky. I would like to see a GP20(favorite diesel). Both Lionel and MTH have brought them to market but I have to fix the pilots, etc. I know a model from 3rd rail would outstanding.

Dave

@DashingDanLIRR posted:

It's a pipe dream though, the MTH F40PHs (except for amtrak) are near impossible to find, and the bi-levels are a bit easier to find but very high on the secondary market. With atlas having the F40PH tooling I doubt we'll see any of the lesser-known commuter roads from either MTH or Atlas again.

The F40PH is my generations F unit so I am a big fan.  I have over a dozen in 3 rail from MTH and K-Line.  I think the biggest challenge with offering these is that MTH, K-Line, and Lionel have done well rendered versions of this locomotive.  Certainly not perfect, especially on the VIA F40PH-3s that have the rebuilt rear hood for the HEP gensets and the distinctly Canadian 3 lamp headlights, or the Juniata rebuilds of NJT F40PH-2s that eliminated the rear porches.  Atlas's 2 rail versions based on the MTH tooling were actually very good.  Hard to see how to compete with that.  However, F40PHs are certainly found in so many unusual locations these days doing service for several railroads in a 2nd or 3rd life.  Just recently I saw that USDOT was using former Amtrak ones in cab crash safety testing.  A sad way to end such long careers, but they are still providing very a very useful service 47 years after they were introduced.

3rd Rail did announce the SDP40F and the FP45, but neither got a lot of traction unfortunately.  Those big 6 axle EMDs are among my favorites also and the Scaleking version is so inaccurate.  Not a F40PH, but the lineage is clear of the development of the cowl unit.

As for bi-levels, a bit past my days riding NJT, but nice cars.  The GO style cars are much easier to do in aluminum which is likely the market based on numbers of likely orders.  The NJT cars would likely require an injection mold, but perhaps not.  If they did, the MOQ to make those happen jumps significantly.

I do agree that the modern commuter market is a very interesting one though.  Who knows what may happen down the road?  While I am not specifically a Canadian modeler, riding the Canadian into Toronto during rush hour was fascinating train watching with the GO Transit local trains being pulled by MP36s, the VIA regional corridor trains with LRV cars and a P42 on one end and an F40PH on the other, and finally being on the all Budd Canadian which just seemed so out of time. 

@Trainbros89 posted:

Would also love to see a Dynamometer car, and a Mckeen Motor Car. Scott has told me in the past that the Dyna car is probably “not likely”.

"Dynamometer car." That would sell out!

@GG1 4877 posted:

3rd Rail did announce the SDP40F and the FP45, but neither got a lot of traction unfortunately.  Those big 6 axle EMDs are among my favorites also and the Scaleking version is so inaccurate.  Not a F40PH, but the lineage is clear of the development of the cowl unit.

Ho Ho Hokus! When did 3rd Rail announce the SDP40F? I don't remember ANY announcement 🤔 from 3rd Rail for that loco or the F45 that many want.

I know there was  lot of posts on this forum clamoring for the SDP40F since there is now a plethora of scale and 3 Rail heritage cars/sets to support a run of the Amtrak SDP40F for several years but I never saw a formal announcement nor a reservation for  either the Amtrak SDP40F  in any of the 4 schemes [3 for Amtrak-ph1,2,&3] plus EMD/PFM test bed schemes and the Santa Fe/Maersk scheme for those who want that unit with the front notch and platform.... then add the F45 model and all those schemes and possibly the FP45 and those paint schemes.

Scott M did a statement in  3rd Rsil email/newsletter a couple of YEARS AGO  [1/3/2022] that an announcement of the F45/SDP40F was coming [pending Amtrak licensing agreement] but alas, NO FORMAL ANNOUNCEMENT/RESERVATION FORM occured as far as I can recall.

@DashingDanLIRR posted:

It's a pipe dream though, the MTH F40PHs (except for amtrak) are near impossible to find, and the bi-levels are a bit easier to find but very high on the secondary market. With atlas having the F40PH tooling I doubt we'll see any of the lesser-known commuter roads from either MTH or Atlas again.

The same way certain hobby shops are doing special runs with MTH couldn't they do it with Atlas as well?

@BobbyD posted:

The same way certain hobby shops are doing special runs with MTH couldn't they do it with Atlas as well?

Yes Mr. Muffins has. But special runs for hobby shops are only available when the mfg/importer has it on schedule for production. 

@BobbyD posted:

The same way certain hobby shops are doing special runs with MTH couldn't they do it with Atlas as well?

I've asked about Caltrain and Metrolink (even though the real Metrolink loco is slightly different), but I've been told that no single commuter line has enough interest to meet the minimum.

It's a shame because scale commuter trains work well on layouts. Most Superliner trains are 2 locos and at least 7 cars plus a separate baggage car. That's 168 inches of cars alone!

@DashingDanLIRR posted: ...snip...

Sounder, New Mexico Rail Runner, GO Transit, Metrolink, Florida Tri-Rail, Trinity use roughly the same type of bilevel car

K-Line did an excellent 21" Bombardier tri-level but never got around to releasing the TriRail version. I ended up picking up the 21" O scale 4-car SOUNDER set:

About six months after I got the set, someone tossed a two-railed SOUNDER set into the 'bay and, stupidly, I did NOT fish it out!

NOTE: The HO and N ones are Athearn.

@DashingDanLIRR posted: ...snip...

...snip... It's a pipe dream though, the MTH F40PHs (except for amtrak) are near impossible to find, and the bi-levels are a bit easier to find but very high on the secondary market. With atlas having the F40PH tooling I doubt we'll see any of the lesser-known commuter roads from either MTH or Atlas again.

MTH did release an F40PH in TriRail, I have the two-rail version, although it carries the wrong road number. The number that MTH used actually belongs on one of the original MK rebuilds (801 - 805) that were obtained on TriRail's start-up. Anyway, I got it from a Stout Auction that handled the estate of a member of an O scale club that I used to belong to when I lived in south Florida although I did not know that at the time of the auction. A friend and I bid on a number of items (some successfully, some not) in that auction; weeks later, when I decided to closely examine a Williams Peter Witt trolley that I won, I found a receipt from a local S FL hobby shop signed by Ron. When I told my friend both about it and my knowledge of Ron's stuff that he would bring to the club, a whole lot of the auction listings made sense.

A humorous follow-on. Many years ago (late 1980s), the late Howard Murray and I went to a private O scale sale in Miami that we saw a listing for in MR. Among some other items, I bought a two-car set of Custom Brass PRR MP-54s. Some years later, I sold the set to Ron as I needed some money and he had previously expressed an interest in them. Fast forwarding to the Stout Auction, I bought a two-car MP-54 set the was listed. After I discovered Ron's receipt in the trolley's box, I realized that I had bought that same set again! There were a couple of marks on one of the cars that I remembered. Ron was a collector mainly, although he did run some of his stuff at the club.

@BobbyD posted:

"Dynamometer car." That would sell out!

I doubt it, every road's cars were different. Now a Sperry car might be better.

I would consider a Sperry Car

@GG1 4877 posted:

The F40PH is my generations F unit so I am a big fan.  I have over a dozen in 3 rail from MTH and K-Line.  I think the biggest challenge with offering these is that MTH, K-Line, and Lionel have done well rendered versions of this locomotive.  Certainly not perfect, especially on the VIA F40PH-3s that have the rebuilt rear hood for the HEP gensets and the distinctly Canadian 3 lamp headlights, or the Juniata rebuilds of NJT F40PH-2s that eliminated the rear porches.  Atlas's 2 rail versions based on the MTH tooling were actually very good.  Hard to see how to compete with that.  However, F40PHs are certainly found in so many unusual locations these days doing service for several railroads in a 2nd or 3rd life.  Just recently I saw that USDOT was using former Amtrak ones in cab crash safety testing.  A sad way to end such long careers, but they are still providing very a very useful service 47 years after they were introduced.

3rd Rail did announce the SDP40F and the FP45, but neither got a lot of traction unfortunately.  Those big 6 axle EMDs are among my favorites also and the Scaleking version is so inaccurate.  Not a F40PH, but the lineage is clear of the development of the cowl unit.

As for bi-levels, a bit past my days riding NJT, but nice cars.  The GO style cars are much easier to do in aluminum which is likely the market based on numbers of likely orders.  The NJT cars would likely require an injection mold, but perhaps not.  If they did, the MOQ to make those happen jumps significantly.

I do agree that the modern commuter market is a very interesting one though.  Who knows what may happen down the road?  While I am not specifically a Canadian modeler, riding the Canadian into Toronto during rush hour was fascinating train watching with the GO Transit local trains being pulled by MP36s, the VIA regional corridor trains with LRV cars and a P42 on one end and an F40PH on the other, and finally being on the all Budd Canadian which just seemed so out of time.

Lionel, MTH, and Atlas do have great tooling the issue is MTH was the only one that did the smaller commuter roads and they are very hard to find (add the rocky mountaineer to that list). For example I have been attempting to find a GO Transit F40PH for about 3 years now and have had no luck in locating one, it looks like there was an unpowered one posted to ebay last year but I missed that. I think the potential to offer so many different schemes lines up well with some of 3rd rail's other offerings like the Genesis, Budd units, etc. The VIA modelers nitpick the MTH model too for the lack of the correct cab.

The most common bi-level for sure is the bombardier one (the go transit style one), that one has also been done by MTH but the tooling (in my opinion) is very basic and quite poor. The metra-style MTH did is a bit better but also not as detailed as they could be. Both of these don't look like they will be re-relased anytime soon, and their last release date was 2017.

The NJT-style ones have never been done properly before, and could also be used for Metra, Septa, MBTA, LIRR, essentially any commuter road running on the PRR NE corridor line is forced to use the NJT-style bi-levels because of the low tunnels.

If any of these are done I can say for sure my wallet would be in trouble

@prrhorseshoecurve posted:

Yes Mr. Muffins has. But special runs for hobby shops are only available when the mfg/importer has it on schedule for production.

If enough stores request an item it may change their product production plans.

@seank941 posted:

I've asked about Caltrain and Metrolink (even though the real Metrolink loco is slightly different), but I've been told that no single commuter line has enough interest to meet the minimum.

It's a shame because scale commuter trains work well on layouts. Most Superliner trains are 2 locos and at least 7 cars plus a separate baggage car. That's 168 inches of cars alone!

Sadle sometimes they just don't understand the demand, especially the pent up demand, of products their customers will buy. And if you head to a certain auction site you can see all the ones they produced with little demand.

@BobbyD posted:

If enough stores request an item it may change their product production plans.

If anyone has connections with Mrmuffin or trainworld or any other shop I'd love to recommend re-running the Rocky Mountaineer (especially since Atlas owns both of the toolings now), and running VIA

@PRRMP54 posted:

I doubt it, every road's cars were different. Now a Sperry car might be better.

That hasn't stopped Lionel with their 21" cars not being accurate and still producing them in various road names. If a close, generic, Dyno car was offered they would sell. While maybe not to the rivet counter crowd, there are way more that would accept close enough. Seems Menards is doing good business in that market with their "always a new Beta" F units.

I'd like to see the modern 60' High Cube double-door boxcars. These are extremely common on the rails today, and most of the class ones have some painted up in their road name, so there should be plenty of variety to support sales. It seems like a no-brainer to do these in plastic, but none of the other big three have seized the opportunity, so maybe 3rd rail could do it?

@BobbyD posted:

That hasn't stopped Lionel with their 21" cars not being accurate and still producing them in various road names. If a close, generic, Dyno car was offered they would sell. While maybe not to the rivet counter crowd, there are way more that would accept close enough. Seems Menards is doing good business in that market with their "always a new Beta" F units.

3rd Rail customers pretty much *are* the rivet counter crowd that wants researched, prototypically accurate models, is willing to pay a premium for them, won't accept "close enough" (see the first run GP7 / GP9s from a few years ago), and the company generally doesn't do generic or fantasy schemes.  IMHO 3rd Rail trying to follow Menards at anything would be a disaster.  They're completely different companies that bring completely different types of value to the hobby.

I don't see why modern offerings like the ES44 wouldn't be a great sell.... customers really stepped up to the plate for the dash 9s! And the sd40s only took a few hundred years to reach profitability

One a more serious note, I think market assessment is more an art than a science. And in a lot of ways it's a bit of  a mystery. Having said that, 3rd Rail is the only consistent,  HQ 2 rail manufacturer out there. And there are plenty of reasons for their current standing.

@SANTIAGOP23 posted:

I don't see why modern offerings like the ES44 wouldn't be a great sell.... customers really stepped up to the plate for the dash 9s! And the sd40s only took a few hundred years to reach profitability

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

@BlueFeather posted:

3rd Rail customers pretty much *are* the rivet counter crowd that wants researched, prototypically accurate models, is willing to pay a premium for them, won't accept "close enough" (see the first run GP7 / GP9s from a few years ago), and the company generally doesn't do generic or fantasy schemes.  IMHO 3rd Rail trying to follow Menards at anything would be a disaster.  They're completely different companies that bring completely different types of value to the hobby.

This is spot on.  There is a place in the market for all sorts of different offerings at different levels of quality and cost.  To try and be everything for everyone is a recipe for failure. 

The market can be Weird. The SD40s took forever… I’d given up but they Finally got there. Amtrak was dead … until it got hot - now it looks like “everyone” wants it.
Boy …. You never know. You just have to try. All I know is given a choice, I’d rather have 3rd Rail and GGD products than anything else !!!!! 😜👍

Cheers 😉

@SANTIAGOP23 posted:

I don't see why modern offerings like the ES44 wouldn't be a great sell.... customers really stepped up to the plate for the dash 9s! And the sd40s only took a few hundred years to reach profitability

While initial research started on the SD40-2 at least a few millennia before EMD offered it originally in 1972, something can be said for persistence.  Tools are being cut for this project now!  It is finally real. 

On the serious side too, I also agree on the mystery of the science behind what will sell Santiago.  That is why I think Scott's business plan is so robust.  It is a lean organization and if a project doesn't get the right commitment in pre-orders it won't happen.  There is no bias.  It's only legitimate measure of what will ultimately sell and what won't.  We all have seen situations where one poor decision on a product offering has meant the end of the line for several high-end brass manufacturers over the years. 

Sunset 3rd Rail will continue to offer products.    That will last as long as Scott can make a living at it.    They build to reservations, so if you want something that is offered for reservation, you have to make a reservation.   

And projects are offered based on the input Scott and his helpers get at shows and on line.   If enough people request something, a reservation file is opened to see if there really is demand.  

Sunset has been doing this for over 40 years with Scott's father and then Scott running the business.    They have a lot of experience with what sells and at what price points.   

OGR332 has 3rd Rail advert with a new announcement for a GP30?

332 also has the EL3's...

@Trainbros89 posted:

332 also has the EL3's...

This is awesome!  I will place an immediate order for a set once they're available for reservation. 

@BlueFeather posted:

This is awesome!  I will place an immediate order for a set once they're available for reservation. 

Me too! I can't wait!

@Ian Munro posted:

OGR332 has 3rd Rail advert with a new announcement for a GP30?

People looking for realistic power for modeling the WMSR would probably enjoy #501 and / or #502 offered in WM livery as an option (perhaps in one of several cool paint jobs as seen at https://wmsr.com/our-locomotives/western-maryland-501).  Not sure how this might be handled by 3rd Rail even though WM wasn't one of the original purchasers?

@BlueFeather posted:

This is awesome!  I will place an immediate order for a set once they're available for reservation. 

Like wise. Can’t wait to get the EL-3a. Have to start the funding for it now!

Alco C628 - - - in Chicago & North Western livery.