Lionel Legacy K4 Gear Box fix, Tales From Harmon Shops

@RickO posted:

I have one of these heavy Mike's as well.

While there is no spacer. The 1/16 of an inch sideplay on a locomotive showing signs of "fairly heavy use" is far better than the 1/4 of an inch + that the H10s have right out of the box.

This makes sense because there's minimal side shift of the secondary shaft in the chassis on these heavy Mike's.

On the h10 you can see the shaft shift inward and outward when changing direction before opening anything.

Possibly so Rick, and allow me to explain why I see the need for a fix for the heavy Mikes, and the other models with the “ narrow “ gear box …..gears of this design, (worm on wheel) will benefit for longevity having proper mesh dead in the center. If the the worm gear gets on the edge, there’s a chance abnormal wear can happen on the leading edge of the worm wheel,….so, the worm shaft is obviously very hard, therefore the worm wheel is the sacrificial lamb, and it’s purpose of being made from brass or bronze is so it conforms to the worm shaft. The end result would be premature failure on the edge of the worm wheel, beings it’s way softer material than the oober hard worm shaft…..very rarely in this market have I seen a failed worm shaft. It’s 99% of the time the worm wheel that fails first…..I’ve repaired other locomotives where the worm wheel was completed obliterated, but the worm shaft was absolutely reusable…….so,….would the Heavy Mikes be ok??….that’s not a guarantee I can give, ….but with the added shim bar fix, we’re adding cheap insurance that I can guarantee………😉

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

….would the Heavy Mikes be ok??….that’s not a guarantee I can give, ….but with the added shim bar fix, we’re adding cheap insurance that I can guarantee………😉

Pat

I'm not questioning your recommendation for the fix Pat. I'm just thinkin' out loud.

It's a great thing your doing saving these locos from catastrophic failure, and protecting folks investment.👍👍

@swrr posted:

Looks challenging to fix.  This makes US Hobbies gearboxes even more impressive since they are easily repairable.  Sorry for the 2-rail perspective.

Start from page 1 and read from the top down….the fix is fairly easy to set up and install, ( at least for me ) …….it’s a fairly non-invasive procedure, not requiring any wheel pulling, gear pulling, etc…..

Pat

@RickO posted:

I'm not questioning your recommendation for the fix Pat. I'm just thinkin' out loud.

It's a great thing your doing saving these locos from catastrophic failure, and protecting folks investment.👍👍

Bingo, Rick, ….that’s putting it in the best description yet,…..a fairly simple fix to protect an investment and prevent a frown,….😄

Pat

Pat,

Not wanting to jump in the repair line, but would you like this chassis for investigation?

I have the body off for an extended period of time for cosmetic and tender mods.

Say the word and you can investigate in person, won't bother me in the least.

Gray Lackey

@NHVRYGray posted:

Pat,

Not wanting to jump in the repair line, but would you like this chassis for investigation?

I have the body off for an extended period of time for cosmetic and tender mods.

Say the word and you can investigate in person, won't bother me in the least.

Gray Lackey

Gray, contact me via profile, and we’ll take it from there,….

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

Thanks for taking the time to do this valuable research…..I can see there is no large spacer between the gear box wall, and the bronze worm wheel. Therefore, these heavy Mikes will benefit from the added fix for the future and peace of mind, ……sorry to bust your bubble, but the fix will prevent any shifting ….Dave, are the heavy mikes on the hit list?….

Pat

Yeah, the Mike's got stuck on there a bit ago as I think someone had posted something somewhere about it. Sorry about the delay responding, long day.

Oh, the only thing that is currently not listed as a fail was those Varnish Pacific's and those that weren't classified as K4's. I don't know if any of those have popped up at all, I just know I don't own any. Another note is the newest Pacific's, when Pat gets to mine, we'll have a definitive answer on those.

Dave NYC - When you used the term "Varnish Pacifics" above were you referring to the four 2012 Pacifics on your Master List (namely 6-11338 Alton Limited #657, 6-11335 Blue Comet #832, 6-11334 Crescent Limited #1393 and 6-11423 Blue Comet #833) as opposed to the six other 2018 Pacifics on your Master List?

@PH1975 posted:

Dave NYC - When you used the term "Varnish Pacifics" above were you referring to the four 2012 Pacifics on your Master List (namely 6-11338 Alton Limited #657, 6-11335 Blue Comet #832, 6-11334 Crescent Limited #1393 and 6-11423 Blue Comet #833) as opposed to the six other 2018 Pacifics on your Master List?

Yes sir you are correct. Also not included is the most recent release of Pacific's from 2020 IIRC.

Hey Pat, were you going to post a video of a post K4 running smoothly after the fix? I don't remember if you said you were going to or not, hard to keep up with things this week.

Also, what is the workload looking like, more K4's on this weekend's docket?

Any updates?

I've been in contact with Pat on a different subject,so I already know how it's going, but I bet the "general population" is curious... 🙂

Mark in Oregon

@Strummer posted:

Any updates?

I've been in contact with Pat on a different subject,so I already know how it's going, but I bet the "general population" is curious... 🙂

Mark in Oregon

Yeah, curious but also realize that there could be a lot on the plate as typically does happen. Tomorrow I get my car back with an expensive cost to it. Well, I won't be able to hit my usual train show route for the year, but I will still be able to do projects like this one as well as a few others that come up plus my preorder purchases.

Fellas, I do indeed have a video of some smoothed out K4’s …..I’ll post up soon, ….this weekend I’ve got to catch up on some lingering custom work for some fellas on the forum……they’ve been as patient as Jobe, and it’s time to get them done,…..thank god things are catching up at the day job, so I have a little more time to dedicate to locomotive work,…..I thank those that have been patient, ….y’all know who ya are,…..Dave, Dick, Dennis, Sid, Joe, and a couple others,…..I thank you guys!..

Pat

You know me Pat, not in all that big of a hurry. I figure that there is a long list of stuff to do, know my place is somewhere about where I would imagine I'd be, and that this particular topic/project is one that is a downtime on the other things you have going on. That is how I would expect it to be, and the list for this project, I'm near the bottom of the list, so, like I said, no big hurry. 👍🐻

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

You know me Pat, not in all that big of a hurry. I figure that there is a long list of stuff to do, know my place is somewhere about where I would imagine I'd be, and that this particular topic/project is one that is a downtime on the other things you have going on. That is how I would expect it to be, and the list for this project, I'm near the bottom of the list, so, like I said, no big hurry. 👍🐻

Dave, I do have that MTH K4 about ready to head to Alex for his magic,….I spoke to him via phone the other day,….I enjoy irritating the lining of his stomach with my nonsense…..anyways, your stuff is in the query too…..😉

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

Dave, I do have that MTH K4 about ready to head to Alex for his magic,….I spoke to him via phone the other day,….I enjoy irritating the lining of his stomach with my nonsense…..anyways, your stuff is in the query too…..😉

Pat

Pat, you're busier than my car has been getting its new engine(let's not talk about that cost). I get to be back in my own car tomorrow, should be something. I think the best thing will be my visit down to my local train store as I haven't been in there since I put in my newest preorder.

You know, I am so ever curious about the newest of engines that we will be seeing come out later on this year from the V2 2021 catalog. I would wager that the 2-8-0's are going to be on the chopping block with the same gear issue we are seeing here. Thinking about it of course won't do anything until we actually see the product itself. We definitely know that it is more likely to be in certain smaller steam engines than anything else, but that really doesn't mean it can't be in larger ones. I guess we'll all see when we get something in. I just hope that the Berkshire in the 2022 catalog have a great gearbox.

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

Tomorrow Pat should receive my H10 6-84954 PRR #1773 from the Coal Hauler set, and the Pacific 2131700 Mr. Muffin's NYC #3330 to take a look at.

May I ask what the conclusion was for the Pacific engine.  There was an earlier post stating this engine does not have a problem but didn't see a post with Pat's diagnosis.  Apologies if I just missed it.

Thanks,

@GregM posted:

May I ask what the conclusion was for the Pacific engine.  There was an earlier post stating this engine does not have a problem but didn't see a post with Pat's diagnosis.  Apologies if I just missed it.

Thanks,

The Pacifics are ok, no actions required. I just haven’t had time to post up my findings,…..

for the record, and let this stand as notes for Dave on his master list, the problem locomotives are those with the forward facing Mabuchi 385 motor. As noted before, the locomotives with the large motors, ( usually Cannons, or Buehlers ) mounted in the cab areas, have a generous black large, nylon spacer that keeps the gear train centered…….

Pat  

harmonyards - Does your passing grade comment for the Pacific type engine include the four (4) 2012 models (to which I referred above) or just the more recent versions? Thanks.

@harmonyards posted:

The Pacifics are ok, no actions required. I just haven’t had time to post up my findings,…..

for the record, and let this stand as notes for Dave on his master list, the problem locomotives are those with the forward facing Mabuchi 385 motor. As noted before, the locomotives with the large motors, ( usually Cannons, or Buehlers ) mounted in the cab areas, have a generous black large, nylon spacer that keeps the gear train centered…….

Pat  

Hmm, that sounds like a good thing on the Pacific's Pat. I think when I get time tonight I will do some editing. I think maybe the best part for editing would be to move the list over to my post on page 1 right below yours. I can still leave it on page 2 as well, just so things don't get out of whack as far as some of the replies that may not make any sense if it was gone. I'll add whatever bits above about the motors at the top of the post that is to be re-edited, whatever seems the sensible solution. What do you think?